Friendly rivalry and spotting slackers with no dps/hps meters?

Honestly I'm excited to play an MMO that isn't going to be cluttered up with a million addons and just have everything you need built in.

That said something that worries me as a guild leader is friendly competition, for example in wow I have 2 hunters in my guild who play the same class and spec and are constantly competing with each other for top dps/performance and they love to bounce ideas off each other for rotation/talents/stat prio/etc. Without any way to measure yourself in Ashes how can they continue their friendly rivalry?

I'm also worried about how to spot and deal with slackers in my guild in Ashes since people tend to take the path of least resistance, if I have a healer that throws up a hot on the tanks and then alt tabs to watch anime during a boss fight how would I as GM know unless I'm watching everyone casting? (impossible in large group sizes). If we're wiping because of no healing going out how can I identify its the lazy healer and not slap the blame on the entire heal team? (which would suck for everyone who is really trying).

I propose a very simplified "meter" that only the group lead is able to see that just provides a breakdown of either active time casting abilities/hitting the mobs/moving around or the ability to see what spell and how often the person is pressing it just to be able to see everyone is participating or at least trying. That or allow only the group lead to see dps/hps meters. It doesn't help with the friendly competition aspect but idk what would. I'd honestly really love the option to "opt in" for dps/hps meters in specific content like only the gm/group in lead in large scale content, or anyone in small groups of 2-3, or perhaps have some ingame target dummies that display dps/hps and you can only see it there.

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Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

You are a glass half empty guy I am betting.

Not at all. If anything, I am a realist.

Half empty or half full then? XD

Noaani wrote: »

Literally the only reason I have the position on this that I do is because of what I saw in Archeage.

I see nothing at all in Ashes so far that would make me think players will develop the games meta in any other way - and the way I am describing that meta is literally how I watched it unfold (or not unfold, as it were) in that game.

If Intrepid tell us about something that will materially change the way players look at the games meta, then I will obviously reconsider my current position.

They are telling you about something that will materially change the way platers will look at the games meta.
Not having combat trackers is that something. If it was not a huge change compared to other MMOs it would not be so hotly debated.

Noaani wrote: »

However, the parts of the game that are key to me in regards to a games meta (complexity and volume of choice, competitive nature of the game, lack of objective assessment of builds), I honestly can't in good faith make the assumption that the games meta will be any different to the only other game I have played with each of these factors.

Based on past conversations with you. The part of the game that is important to you(Meaningful and challenging PvE). Is debatably going to be in the game as you and I understand it. If it is just world bosses with "World boss tier mechanics", Optimized builds based on DPS meters will not be as important.
Sacrificing DPS for PvP utility will likely be more important.

Noaani wrote: »

On top of the above factors, Ashes also has lesser access to respecs (from what we have been told), which would count against it having a more fluid meta, if anything.

This is true, and I think it is great. It should provide build diversity. Having some build choices be better for PvP and others be better for PvE, Players will have to spec themselves out for PvP, PvE, or any degree of hybridization between the two.

There will at least be some level of understanding if someone does not have a skill that is good for PvP if they PvE all the time. People will be more accepting of deviations of the meta.

Noaani wrote: »

Remember, a meta isn't something that the developer can make, it is something the players collectively decide on. Every time someone joins your group and is a class you have had good experiences with in the past, if you say that to the player in question, then you are active in creating the games meta.

True, but like I said, they can slow the progression of that meta by limiting the amount of combat information players have.

Yuyukoyay

I only have a reply for the second part. Since the rest don't really need one.

There was never an MMO that had choices that were relevant enough to not form a meta, but there was also never an MMO where making money wasn't the primary goal of the game. I'm confident that this game won't have a meta except for the min maxers, but the min maxers probably won't make a big enough difference in this game to throw it into chaos either.

I'm pretty confident that if there is a problem with this game because of a meta. It will probably get patched out.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

You are a glass half empty guy I am betting.

Not at all. If anything, I am a realist.

Half empty or half full then? XD

Depends on context. If you are filling the glass, then the glass is half full, if you are drinking from the glass, it is half empty.

They are telling you about something that will materially change the way platers will look at the games meta.
Not having combat trackers is that something. If it was not a huge change compared to other MMOs it would not be so hotly debated.

This is materially the same as Archeage. The combat tracker I was using for that game still has single digit total downloads.

Again, this is why I am comparing to Archeage, all of the key factors are the same.

Based on past conversations with you. The part of the game that is important to you(Meaningful and challenging PvE). Is debatably going to be in the game as you and I understand it. If it is just world bosses with "World boss tier mechanics", Optimized builds based on DPS meters will not be as important.
Sacrificing DPS for PvP utility will likely be more important.

I am fairly sure it won't be in the game either, which has me worried for the game. A game in which PvE generates for the server and PvP redistributes what is generated only works if that PvE can stand on it's own.

In order for the general idea that Steven has for Ashes, the PvE in the game needs to be among the best that exists. If it is not that good, PvE players won't run it, which leaves PvP players to fight among themselves just like every other PvP focused MMO ever.

This is true, and I think it is great. It should provide build diversity. Having some build choices be better for PvP and others be better for PvE, Players will have to spec themselves out for PvP, PvE, or any degree of hybridization between the two.

There will at least be some level of understanding if someone does not have a skill that is good for PvP if they PvE all the time. People will be more accepting of deviations of the meta.

This is one way of looking at it - another is by looking at the individual player when they decide how to spec their character.

Almost all players are going to just use a guide. This is how every game works, and is nothing at all unique to Ashes. The fact that a respec isn't easy just means more players are going to want to get it "right" the first time, and are unlikely to even look back at guides to see if the meta has changed.

True, but like I said, they can slow the progression of that meta by limiting the amount of combat information players have.

But they aren't limiting the amount of information we have access to - we have combat logs as confirmed by Steven.

What the lack of combat trackers will do is limit how easy that information is to access for the bulk of the population.

Vhaeyne

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

The reason people beat Classic WoW's raids so easily was because they were never hard to begin with. Back in Vanilla days like 70% of the playerbase were keyboard turners. They were so unbelievably bad that the current Classic dynamic was how it was supposed to play out originally. Plus internet connections are better. Nothing to do with DPS meters at all.

I said it had to do with the private server community having years to refine the meta for classic, not DPS meters. DPS meters are only a tool that accelerates the establishment of a hard meta.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

There was never an MMO that had choices that were relevant enough to not form a meta, but there was also never an MMO where making money wasn't the primary goal of the game.

I am so confused by this statement. Do you have any idea how useless money is in some MMORPGs?
I can't imagine how my game player experience would be in different in FFXIV if I had unlimited Gil.
Also money is going to be extremely important in Ashes, nearly the primary goal for many people.

Yuyukoyay

I meant the company making the game, not in the game itself. Money making will actually matter in this game, but it wasn't made just to make money for the company. xD

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Depends on context. If you are filling the glass, then the glass is half full, if you are drinking from the glass, it is half empty.

I am pretty sure the the whole point of the question is that you don't know if it was last being filled or emptied. You just encounter a glass at 50% capacity with no other knowledge. Still betting on half empty for you...

Noaani wrote: »

This is one way of looking at it - another is by looking at the individual player when they decide how to spec their character.

Almost all players are going to just use a guide. This is how every game works, and is nothing at all unique to Ashes. The fact that a respec isn't easy just means more players are going to want to get it "right" the first time, and are unlikely to even look back at guides to see if the meta has changed.

I personally just look at guilds as a starting point. WOW is the exception to this because everything is solved for each content type during PTR practically.

If we do have meters, which I will admit is far more likely than not. You are right, people are going to want to get the set "right" build that gets them into groups, and never respec. It sucks.

I still think not having DPS meters would allow for a softer meta where people don't worry as much about other players builds is possible. Unfortunately, I can't think of a game that has no DPS meter at all. Just games where no one uses them. Of the games where no one uses them the meta is generally softer.

Vhaeyne

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I meant the company making the game, not in the game itself. Money making will actually matter in this game, but it wasn't made just to make money for the company. xD

Ahh, I read it a few times and did not get that. The first thought in the sentence was about how choices are relevant to the meta so I assumed we were talking about "In game" choices / money.

Still confused about the whole of this post? Are you saying that you think Ashes will be balanced to the point that min/maxing will be less important?

If so lets hope for it together.

Yuyukoyay

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I meant the company making the game, not in the game itself. Money making will actually matter in this game, but it wasn't made just to make money for the company. xD

Ahh, I read it a few times and did not get that. The first thought in the sentence was about how choices are relevant to the meta so I assumed we were talking about "In game" choices / money.

Still confused about the whole of this post? Are you saying that you think Ashes will be balanced to the point that min/maxing will be less important?

If so lets hope for it together.

Yep that's more or less exactly what I'm saying. Min/Maxing being out of control is a consequence from not caring. Settling on a lesser product to release it faster. Like when I play Diablo 2 I have a lot of options. There is kind of a meta, but there are so many options for each class that the meta doesn't really matter.

When you have choices play a role to the extent that this game is planning to then you can't really compare this game to previous MMO's in scope. Since metas partially ruin those game's choices. I think meta will mean a lot less in this game because of difference of development philosophy.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depends on context. If you are filling the glass, then the glass is half full, if you are drinking from the glass, it is half empty.

I am pretty sure the the whole point of the question is that you don't know if it was last being filled or emptied. You just encounter a glass at 50% capacity with no other knowledge. Still betting on half empty for you...

In that specific scenario I would say it is half empty, but only because it is more likely that someone will leave a glass that they are half way through drinking than it is that they would leave a glass while they are half way through filling it.

On the other hand, if someone just poured enough liquid in to the glass to leave it half full, then it is a half glass of liquid. It is not half full or half empty because under this scenario it was never intended to be full - It was only ever meant to have the amount of liquid in it that it has.

The volume of the liquid in the glass is less important in that situation than working out why the glass - and it's liquid - are left as they are.

As I said earlier, a realist. Logic is my guide, nothing more.

I personally just look at guilds as a starting point.

Assuming you mean guides here.

I don't even look at guides - other than writing them.

Fact is though, most players are not interested in dealing with the complexity of potential class builds in Ashes. People write guides because others use them.

It is something of a shame you didn't play Archeage. A game with all the same key points Ashes will have in relation to builds, and with a meta that didn't shift at all in 4+ years. Even today, after adding an entire new progression system on top of the level cap, most players still play the same meta, even though it literally makes no sense at all any more.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Assuming you mean guides here.

I don't even look at guides - other than writing them.

Fact is though, most players are not interested in dealing with the complexity of potential class builds in Ashes. People write guides because others use them.

It is something of a shame you didn't play Archeage. A game with all the same key points Ashes will have in relation to builds, and with a meta that didn't shift at all in 4+ years. Even today, after adding an entire new progression system on top of the level cap, most players still play the same meta, even though it literally makes no sense at all any more.

Yeah, typo. LOL

I did play a little ArcheAge. Enough to know I did not like it. I remember my friend paying out the nose in the cash shop and trying to tell me that its not P2W when it looked very P2W.

Still a static hard meta sounds lame. If no one used a meter in ArcheAge and it had such a rigid meta. That is good evidence that not having a DPS meter is not a magic ticket to people accepting out of meta builds, but it is not enough evidence to convince me that no DPS meter wont be helpful in keeping the meta loose.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

If no one used a meter in ArcheAge and it had such a rigid meta. That is good evidence that not having a DPS meter is not a magic ticket to people accepting out of meta builds, but it is not enough evidence to convince me that no DPS meter wont be helpful in keeping the meta loose.

By itself, it isn't enough for me either.

If the game had other factors that I could see that would get more people either moving away from the meta, or even attempting to change the meta, then that would be great.

Problem is, I don't see any. As I've said, I don't see any material difference (in terms of factors that impact how a meta would form) between Ashes and Archeage.

If all relevant factors are the same, I have to assume the outcome will be the same as well.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Problem is, I don't see any. As I've said, I don't see any material difference (in terms of factors that impact how a meta would form) between Ashes and Archeage.

If all relevant factors are the same, I have to assume the outcome will be the same as well.

What about the hybrid combat? Another major difference. Assuming they do it as proposed. People will have build diversity based on their preferred playstyle.

BobzUrUncle

Just remember that a glass is never any part empty (except in a vacuum). If there is liquid in it part way, the rest is full of air.
So the glass is always full!!

Bum4evr

<WoW player 11 years. Dps meters are just abused too often in WoW and toxic players use them as a griefing tool. 3 weeks ago I'm in Warsong Gulch and someone says "Dude the mage is healing more than you are, you suck!" and I"m following and healing our flag carrier, and often that just involves doing nothing because everyone is so involved in a mid-field battle, (That's how I got Ironman achieve, just ran past everyone and nobody cared)

Perhaps allow people to see their own dps and choose if they want to share it, so guildies could say "hey I see your dps is a tad low, let us help you out with your rotation" But I am imagining an mmorpg of mature players, which most of WoW is not.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Problem is, I don't see any. As I've said, I don't see any material difference (in terms of factors that impact how a meta would form) between Ashes and Archeage.

If all relevant factors are the same, I have to assume the outcome will be the same as well.

What about the hybrid combat? Another major difference. Assuming they do it as proposed. People will have build diversity based on their preferred playstyle.

I don't really see action vs tab being that big of a thing in Ashes, since we know that telegraphed AoE's and such will count as action.

Even if that were the case, Archeages meta managed to cater to people with different latency rates, so I don't see tab vs action being hard to fit in to the meta.

The closest thing to a difference between the two is that in Archeage, you can take any class, or any build. As such, there were a total of maybe a dozen builds in the meta. In Ashes, you can only be 1/8th of the - classers/builds. My expectation is that the meta will allow 2 or 3 builds per primary archetype - or 16 - 24 builds in total.

Caeryl

Noaani wrote: »

... encounters that rely on animations to tell you what is happening (or telegraphs) belong in childrens games.

Somehow I’m still surprised by the sheer, utter nonsense that gets thrown around on these forums sometimes.

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

... encounters that rely on animations to tell you what is happening (or telegraphs) belong in childrens games.

Somehow I’m still surprised by the sheer, utter nonsense that gets thrown around on these forums sometimes.

If I can show my 5 year old nephew how to raid and avoid fire by simply avoiding the big red circles on the ground, then yeah, it is appropriate for childrens games.

There are other methods to pass information on to players. While it is perfectly fine to use animations and telegraphs in some situations, if that is what is relied on, as I said above, then yeah, childrens game.

Songcaller

Its funny we have claims of children's games but only a child would need a combat tracker. Children's games also don't have contestation of kills which Ashes will have. I'm not sure why this thread hasn't been merged into the Mega Thread. It is the same pointless debate.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

Its funny we have claims of children's games but only a child would need a combat tracker.

Children wouldn't understand a combat tracker.

A simple DPS meter maybe, but not a combat tracker.

rikardp98

We don't want a dps/hps meter, not specifically. We want a combat tracker, yes dps/hps meters is a part of that but it is also much MUCH more.

People that look at the dps meters without any context, like the example from @Bum4evr, is just ignorant and should be ignored. No one really cares about how much dps or hps a player does, even though it will encourage people to push their limited and improve, what we really care about is the right dps and the right hps. And what I mean about that is, are the dps/hps a player does on the right target and in the right time. (Talking mostly about pve here)

When it comes to pvp then dps meter is generally useless and won't help much, atleast when it comes to objective based pvp. Yes, it may show slackers and people afking, but since pvp is so situation based and random shit happens all the time, a combat tracker isn't of much help (atleast I don't think so).

Child Item