Friendly rivalry and spotting slackers with no dps/hps meters?

Honestly I'm excited to play an MMO that isn't going to be cluttered up with a million addons and just have everything you need built in.

That said something that worries me as a guild leader is friendly competition, for example in wow I have 2 hunters in my guild who play the same class and spec and are constantly competing with each other for top dps/performance and they love to bounce ideas off each other for rotation/talents/stat prio/etc. Without any way to measure yourself in Ashes how can they continue their friendly rivalry?

I'm also worried about how to spot and deal with slackers in my guild in Ashes since people tend to take the path of least resistance, if I have a healer that throws up a hot on the tanks and then alt tabs to watch anime during a boss fight how would I as GM know unless I'm watching everyone casting? (impossible in large group sizes). If we're wiping because of no healing going out how can I identify its the lazy healer and not slap the blame on the entire heal team? (which would suck for everyone who is really trying).

I propose a very simplified "meter" that only the group lead is able to see that just provides a breakdown of either active time casting abilities/hitting the mobs/moving around or the ability to see what spell and how often the person is pressing it just to be able to see everyone is participating or at least trying. That or allow only the group lead to see dps/hps meters. It doesn't help with the friendly competition aspect but idk what would. I'd honestly really love the option to "opt in" for dps/hps meters in specific content like only the gm/group in lead in large scale content, or anyone in small groups of 2-3, or perhaps have some ingame target dummies that display dps/hps and you can only see it there.

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Saedu

Noaani wrote: »

Saedu wrote: »

- In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts.

Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing.

That's not my quote. I agree with you @Noaani. Beating/not beating the boss is not enough detail to know how you did.

Noaani

Saedu wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Saedu wrote: »

- In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts.

Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing.

That's not my quote. I agree with you Noaani. Beating/not beating the boss is not enough detail to know how you did.

That is the second time my phone has done that (or, I have made a mistake on my phone and not noticed, more accurately).

Fixed it for you though.

akabear

I`m old school, I think.

I prefer no dps meters and learn to read the mob and environment, not the just scrolling numbers & stats on the screen.

Players, groups, clans learn pretty quickly who knows plays well and who doesn`t through experience.

More over, the less need to refer to UI and focus what one sees, gets response to hears and feels would by my 2 cents.

Noaani

akabear wrote: »

I`m old school, I think.

I prefer no dps meters and learn to read the mob and environment, not the just scrolling numbers & stats on the screen.

Players, groups, clans learn pretty quickly who knows plays well and who doesn`t through experience.

More over, the less need to refer to UI and focus what one sees, gets response to hears and feels would by my 2 cents.

I aren't a fan of looking g at.scrolling numbers in combat either.

Thing is, there is no need to look at them during combat.

So, you have a fight against a mob, it does stuff, you aren't sure what.

You have a choice, either pull it again and again until you find out what it is doing, or you go through your combat log to try and find what it is doing.

The rest of your raid will want you to go through your combat log to find what it is doing, even if you dont.

As it is understood right now, that combat log is literally just a chat window in your game client. That means going through each line manually, one by one.

All a combat tracker does is take that information and make it easier and faster to comprehend.

I dont see how people can say this is a bad thing.

The notion that "I dont want a combat tracker because I want to watch the game while I am killing things", and all of its derivatives, is simply indicative of someone that doesn't understand proper usage of a combat tracker.

There is no need for a combat tracker to have a single element showing on your screen during an encounter, if you do not wish it to.

Recluse74

The downside of DPS meters... Meta and toxic players who will take nothing less.
The upside... knowing the meta so you will not be excluded by toxic players.

akabear

General PvE I imagine there is time to read.
Intense raid perhaps time through much of it
But intense pvp I would think trumps all.

In L2, I recall developing a sense such that if I had to fight class type X, it was generally a combination of either 2-3 crits (random 1 in 5 chance ) or 6-10 general shots to take out, less if max buffs. Class type Y, perhaps 20% more, Class Z 50% more.

If you could see them downing heal pots add 1-3 shots to take out, and if they were spamming X type pots, then you were in for a fight.

But all from watching the player not the side stats. Others may have read the stats but for full attention to what you were doing, then there was really only time for occasional glance at the side text bar.

For PvE, if fully buffed and fighting the best mobs for level, was 2.5 shot, so no need for counter at all.

Boss, well you needed to see that health bar move and know if you were effective so sure.

I was hoping for the immersion so that the screen was watched not the side bars.

grisu

Just putting down my mark in the 30th post about it.
I'm pro dps meter or a suiteable substitute to keep game balance in check AND visible as well as craft encounters that are truly hard on the edge of possible. (and other things I'm just to lazy to reiterate as 200+ posts in here probably did anyway)

Noaani

akabear wrote: »

General PvE I imagine there is time to read.

Intense raid perhaps time through much of it

But intense pvp I would think trumps all.

If you really want to look at your combat tracker in general PvE you can, I'm not sure why you would want to though.

An intense raid? Nope, no hope. The more intense raids I have been on are far more intense than the most intense PvP I have been in (between my time in Archeage, BDO and EvE, as well as a few other games).

Honestly, the intensity doesn't even come close.

As I have said in the past - I use combat trackers in every game, even those people don't think have a combat tracker available for them. That is 20 years of running combat trackers, and over two dozen games in total.

I have NEVER looked at a combat tracker during combat. Not once. Not even briefly.

There is no point.

It isn't even a case of not wanting to break immersion, it is a case of it being actually pointless. You use a combat tracker to work out what you are going to do in combat, and if you aren't successful, to help you work out why. If the information a combat tracker can give you during combat alters anything you do during that encounter, then you didn't use the combat tracker properly before combat.

I've said it many times and I will say it again, people that cite this as a reason to be against combat trackers straight up don't know how to use them properly - don't even know what they are for.

maouw

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

- In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts.

Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing.

This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar.

I understand what you're saying about precision data allowing you to take precision action to fight precision bosses. I know there are other people, not just yourself, who like that. But I'm against the concept because it reduces the experience of the boss fight to a pass/fail numbers threshold in a very obtuse way.

Despite everything I've said, I do acknowledge that repeating the same boss unavoidably leads to systematized tactics - so there is merit to keeping the skill ceiling high (neigh impossible) mechanically. My push back here is: do you not notice that grinding bosses burns out your interest? To have a boss always available for a fight accelerates this process, and Steven's ideas about focusing on prime-time slows this down. This is healthy for the longevity of the game, the experience of the boss fight and the real-life priorities of the ordinary person.

Noaani

maouw wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

- In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts.

Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing.

This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar.

All you know in games like this is if you are doing well enough for other players to be happy with you.

If the developers of any game where players are not using a combat tracker decided they wanted to push an encounter to the limit of what is possible with their combat system, players will state the encounter is impossible.

So, developers don't do that. They develop to displayed player ability, not to potential ability of the classes/combat system.

maouw

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

- In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts.

Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing.

This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar.

All you know in games like this is if you are doing well enough for other players to be happy with you.

If the developers of any game where players are not using a combat tracker decided they wanted to push an encounter to the limit of what is possible with their combat system, players will state the encounter is impossible.

So, developers don't do that. They develop to displayed player ability, not to potential ability of the classes/combat system.

I don't deny that.

I'm saying you're engineering the fun out of the game.

Noaani

maouw wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

- In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts.

Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing.

This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar.

All you know in games like this is if you are doing well enough for other players to be happy with you.

If the developers of any game where players are not using a combat tracker decided they wanted to push an encounter to the limit of what is possible with their combat system, players will state the encounter is impossible.

So, developers don't do that. They develop to displayed player ability, not to potential ability of the classes/combat system.

I don't deny that.

I'm saying you're engineering the fun out of the game.

Sure, for some people.

Many people enjoy that kind of thing.

The good thing about a raid though, you only need two or three people to actually use them.

As long as the rest of the raid are willing to make improvements to their performance as needed, then all is good (you should not be playing cooperatively with others if you are not willing to improve when an improvement is presented to you).

Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

- In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts.

Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing.

This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar.

All you know in games like this is if you are doing well enough for other players to be happy with you.

If the developers of any game where players are not using a combat tracker decided they wanted to push an encounter to the limit of what is possible with their combat system, players will state the encounter is impossible.

So, developers don't do that. They develop to displayed player ability, not to potential ability of the classes/combat system.

I don't deny that.

I'm saying you're engineering the fun out of the game.

Sure, for some people.

Many people enjoy that kind of thing.

The good thing about a raid though, you only need two or three people to actually use them.

As long as the rest of the raid are willing to make improvements to their performance as needed, then all is good (you should not be playing cooperatively with others if you are not willing to improve when an improvement is presented to you).

What if that improvement was to change your secondary archetype and weapon used, but you really enjoy the one you are playing now? Why should the way you enjoy playing determine if you can actually play?

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

- In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts.

Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing.

This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar.

All you know in games like this is if you are doing well enough for other players to be happy with you.

If the developers of any game where players are not using a combat tracker decided they wanted to push an encounter to the limit of what is possible with their combat system, players will state the encounter is impossible.

So, developers don't do that. They develop to displayed player ability, not to potential ability of the classes/combat system.

I don't deny that.

I'm saying you're engineering the fun out of the game.

Sure, for some people.

Many people enjoy that kind of thing.

The good thing about a raid though, you only need two or three people to actually use them.

As long as the rest of the raid are willing to make improvements to their performance as needed, then all is good (you should not be playing cooperatively with others if you are not willing to improve when an improvement is presented to you).

What if that improvement was to change your secondary archetype and weapon used, but you really enjoy the one you are playing now? Why should the way you enjoy playing determine if you can actually play?

If you are opting to play at the top end, with 39 other players depending on you, then you should be both willing and happy to do what you can do to pull your weight.

What is more fair, one person playing not their favorite subclass, but participating in the content they most enjoy, or 40 people failing at content because one player refuses to pull their weight?

In my raids, if you need to change spec/class so that we can kill content, I expect you to. If you do not, you can find another guild/raid. If we do not need tou to change in order to kill the content, why would we ask you to change?

Saedu

Noaani wrote: »

If you really want to look at your combat tracker in general PvE you can, I'm not sure why you would want to though.

Yea, just grinding mobs and questing...it's not needed at all. Combat trackers are only needed when doing difficult content.

Noaani wrote: »

An intense raid? Nope, no hope. The more intense raids I have been on are far more intense than the most intense PvP I have been in (between my time in Archeage, BDO and EvE, as well as a few other games).

Honestly, the intensity doesn't even come close.

Sounds like you haven't played against a rank 1 team in highly competitive 10v10 PvP (instanced of course, just like the most intense PvE is instanced). The skill level those players bring to a game is insanely high. Both PvP and PvV (when instanced) can be very difficult to beat. When a new season (e.g. new raid tier) comes out it tends to be that PvP is easier and gets harder over time (as your competition gets geared up) while PvE gets easier over the season (as your team gets geared up). Both can be very challenging though.

Note: I'm not advocating that lots of PvP/PvE be instanced in this game, just pointing it out from other games. I think we have both agreed previously that the highest skill based combat can only be measured in a instanced environment.

Noaani wrote: »

I have NEVER looked at a combat tracker during combat. Not once. Not even briefly.

There is no point.

It isn't even a case of not wanting to break immersion, it is a case of it being actually pointless. You use a combat tracker to work out what you are going to do in combat, and if you aren't successful, to help you work out why. If the information a combat tracker can give you during combat alters anything you do during that encounter, then you didn't use the combat tracker properly before combat.

There are very valid reasons to do so in PvP (as I've pointed out in other posts before). In PvP the boss is not scripted, you can't just stop between pulls to see what's going on and tune your strategy like you can in PvE. You've got to be doing it while the battle is happening and the combat trackers will tell you a lot about what your team and your enemies team is doing so you can adjust your strategy. I've done this hundreds, if not thousands of times and I'm sure its helped my team come back and win many games.

Noaani wrote: »

I've said it many times and I will say it again, people that cite this as a reason to be against combat trackers straight up don't know how to use them properly - don't even know what they are for.

Yea people who don't know how to use trackers tend to be against them.

Noaani

Saedu wrote: »

Sounds like you haven't played against a rank 1 team in highly competitive 10v10 PvP

Indeed I haven't.

While I do enjoy open world PvP, arenas have never been my thing - or any ranked PvP for that matter. It may well be that there is a desire to look at a combat tracker in such a situation, I am not qualified to argue the point either way.

Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

- In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts.

Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing.

This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar.

All you know in games like this is if you are doing well enough for other players to be happy with you.

If the developers of any game where players are not using a combat tracker decided they wanted to push an encounter to the limit of what is possible with their combat system, players will state the encounter is impossible.

So, developers don't do that. They develop to displayed player ability, not to potential ability of the classes/combat system.

I don't deny that.

I'm saying you're engineering the fun out of the game.

Sure, for some people.

Many people enjoy that kind of thing.

The good thing about a raid though, you only need two or three people to actually use them.

As long as the rest of the raid are willing to make improvements to their performance as needed, then all is good (you should not be playing cooperatively with others if you are not willing to improve when an improvement is presented to you).

What if that improvement was to change your secondary archetype and weapon used, but you really enjoy the one you are playing now? Why should the way you enjoy playing determine if you can actually play?

If you are opting to play at the top end, with 39 other players depending on you, then you should be both willing and happy to do what you can do to pull your weight.

What is more fair, one person playing not their favorite subclass, but participating in the content they most enjoy, or 40 people failing at content because one player refuses to pull their weight?

In my raids, if you need to change spec/class so that we can kill content, I expect you to. If you do not, you can find another guild/raid. If we do not need tou to change in order to kill the content, why would we ask you to change?

I am not a casual player, I am not worried about myself, so this is not me arguing that you are hurting my play experience. I am worried about casuals who just enjoy taking part in the full game, who will get booted from everything they join... This can kill a casual player population in a game like this. And a loss of casual players, would not work well with the node system and how it works.

Now the argument here against what I said is.. do not use them if you don't want to. Problem is, even the casual guilds who say they will not use them, will in fact, eventually use them if it is provided in game. Next thing you know, if you are not meta, you are not playing in end game activities. If a casual guild does not have easy access to one (provided in game), they will not use one. And they could play this game ignorant of what a calculator tells them to do and just have fun.

Either way, the simple fact is this... there will be DPS meters for this game official or not. If you choose to use one, in whatever form it comes in... I say go for it. I know I will be if I can find one. But to the casual players, it is not fair if one is forced on them.

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

I am not a casual player, I am not worried about myself, so this is not me arguing that you are hurting my play experience. I am worried about casuals who just enjoy taking part in the full game, who will get booted from everything they join... This can kill a casual player population in a game like this. And a loss of casual players, would not work well with the node system and how it works.

This game is intended to have to pend PvE raids that a single digit percentage of the population will be able to take on successfully.

This is the kind of content where the specific class you run actually could matter.

This content is not designed for casual players.

As far as I am concerned, this kind of renders your point moot - but feel free to let me know if you disagree.

Problem is, even the casual guilds who say they will not use them, will in fact, eventually use them if it is provided in game.

The system I have been arguing for now for several years (I have no doubt you would not yet have come across my points on this matter) is that the best thing Intrepid could do is add in a combat tracker to the games client, but make it an optional guild perk (since these will be a thing).

Make it so guilds can pick a tangable advantage in harvesting or crafting, a boost to small scale PvE combat when in guild only groups, a boost to PvP combat when in guild only groups, or a combat tracker that only tracks combat of guild members.

Most casual guilds wouldn't even consider taking a combat tracker over a tangeble benefit to aspects of teh game they frequently use.

Either way, the simple fact is this... there will be DPS meters for this game official or not. If you choose to use one, in whatever form it comes in... I say go for it. I know I will be if I can find one. But to the casual players, it is not fair if one is forced on them.

I don't disagree with any of this at all.

Thing is, if combat trackers are left to be available to all players, then all players will be expected to use them - or to have used them to develop their build (or use a build that someone else has used a combat tracker to develop).

The only way to prevent this is to implement combat trackers directly in to the game, where people that really want them - the people that drive their development - have access to them, but where others have other things they would perhaps rather chose to take instead.

Recluse74

Not great at the whole quote system (old guy).. so I will just respond the best I can.

"The system I have been arguing for now for several years (I have no doubt you would not yet have come across my points on this matter) is that the best thing Intrepid could do is add in a combat tracker to the games client, but make it an optional guild perk (since these will be a thing).

Make it so guilds can pick a tangable advantage in harvesting or crafting, a boost to small scale PvE combat when in guild only groups, a boost to PvP combat when in guild only groups, or a combat tracker that only tracks combat of guild members.

Most casual guilds wouldn't even consider taking a combat tracker over a tangeble benefit to aspects of teh game they frequently use."

I love this idea.. The only issue I see, would be guilds that are hardcore, taking advantage of the perks. All you would have to do is make multiple guilds for each perk you would like to take advantage of and fill it with alts and or mains that would like to take advantage of said perk. Each sub guild, benefitting the main guild in some way. You could only allow one guild per account, but then people with the means would just buy more accounts. If you could find a way to stop all the ways to bypass and take advantage of this system, Im all in.

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

I love this idea.. The only issue I see, would be guilds that are hardcore, taking advantage of the perks. All you would have to do is make multiple guilds for each perk you would like to take advantage of and fill it with alts and or mains that would like to take advantage of said perk. Each sub guild, benefitting the main guild in some way. You could only allow one guild per account, but then people with the means would just buy more accounts. If you could find a way to stop all the ways to bypass and take advantage of this system, Im all in.

Since there is likely to be a cooldown between when you can leave one guild and join another, I don't see this as an issue.

As long as the combat tracker only tracks the combat of people in that guild, if you try and get people in different guilds with different perks, the tracker won't work for them.

If they implemented this, they would be able to do away with the combat log that the game is going to have, and could even do away with floating combat feedback. These are the main two vectors by which combat trackers for Ashes are being developed (and yes, there are two that I am somewhat following in development).

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