Fighter - Class Design

Im really looking forward to playing a fighter, it is definitely the archetype which I will roll; with my second class being up in the air currently, Im thinking either a Shadowblade, Spell Blade, Weapon Master or High Blade. To preface this I play fighter type classes in most games, and I have to say for the most part mmo's generally do a sub-par job in capturing the feel of being a warrior, usually its reduced to hitting some buttons as they light-up and watching numbers appear... Im not sure how that is meant to translate to feeling like a warrior swinging a huge weapon and timing your blows perfectly, and in reality it simply doesnt.

Thinking about this I thought a cool idea which would really capture what it should feel like to swing a weapon and be a fighter, would be to introduce a swing system.

The swing system is reliant upon when you start to hold down your key; for example you hit 1, as soon as you hit 1 your character starts drawing back their blade, winding up for a big hit... and upon release it attacks; a system which could easily be translated into action combat rather than tab-targeting.

Based on the timing of your swing a differing type of hit occurs

0-0.9 Second Swing Time
the attack deals 75% damage, and applies the debuff Expose Weakness
Expose Weakness, increases all damage taken by the target by 3.333% stacking 3 times to 10-ish% damage from all sources

1-1.9 Second Swing Time
The attack deals 100% damage and applies a bleed effect stacking 3 times

2-3 Second Swing Time
The attack deals 125% damage and applies a 1 second stun, with diminishing returns on the stun.

this system could then be introduced to a range of strikes for example cleaving strike, the attack hits everything in a frontal cone
devestating strike, the attack focuses a single target with increased critical chance etc.

Having these different effects all of which are beneficial would encourage the fighter to be actively engaged in a differing range of swing times and hits if they wanted to actively keep up all of their relevant debuffs and then when they have them start smashing away with massive blows. and to me would be far more immersive then just hitting buttons as they light up which could literally be translated into any other class, this way you are intrinsically immersed in the action of swinging your blade which should be the key focus of a warrior at heart.

would love to heart what you all think, thoughts opinions or comments.

Cheers.

Edit:

4 more abilities off the top of my head; remember this is a framework for design:

Heroic Throw
does a Linear weapon throw where the fighter throws their weapon in a line damaging and dazing all enemies struck, and then the fighter may actually use rush on their weapon to reclaim it, performing an instant leg-swipe whirlwind on reaching it.

Whirlwind
the fighter holds down the X key and starts to wind up and when releasing they spin in a 360 spin which depending on the windup e.g 0-0.9 leg-swipes all enemies nearby for 50% damage and slows them for 50% speed, 1.0-1.9 Crushing Blows all enemies for 75% damage and stunning for 1 second, 2.0-3.0 seconds Blade Storm and knocks all enemies within 5 meters, 10 meters from the centre of the vortex, allowing a huge amount of peel and utility for example rushing near a healer and getting players or npcs off them.

Riposte
upon the enemy parrying you have 0-1 second allowing you to perform a reactive instant strike disarming them and applying expose weakness

Bellowing Roar
Where upon charging for 0.5 Seconds buffs all party members increasing damage and making them fear immune for 5 seconds, charging for 1 second dazes all nearby enemies in a nearby area, and on 2 seconds causes all nearby enemies to flee in terror.

Ruthless Kick
Upon an enemy dodging the fighter has 0-1 seconds to perform a Ruthless Kick, knocking the target down for 2 Seconds, While knocked down Devestating Strike has a 100% chance to critical strike.

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Comments

Daerax

Personally I am not really a fan of this exact example for a fighter. I just think that 2+ seconds cast time for some basic dps ability seems too much for a melee. But if you make those periods as short that it becomes hard to hit the exact type of swing you want to use, it all changes from choice to more of reaction/timing thing which I don't really like (my opinions ofc, just don't like those mechanics in general, especially don't think it would fit MMO). Of course there might be a sweet spot somewhere in between, it's hard to tell.

I wouldn't go with 3 possible swings personally, but having some instant abilities with option of short cast for increased/additional effect seems like a good idea to me. It also fits the general hack and slash mechanic - click for light attack, hold for heavy attack we all know from other games.

I feel like the idea you gave si much more fitting for a ranger. Optional longer cast wouldn't matter to ranged class that much and this whole thing representing drawing of the bow string to get a more powerful shot also makes sense to me.

Archeon

@Daerax

I think the timing could definitely be changed, who knows maybe it is scalar with the weapon type so much faster for 1h/dual wield and slower for 2h

I really despise instant abilities, its literally the exact same thing we have seen for melee dps in every single iteration of mmo warrior for the last 20 years. In this game we have the opportunity to be innovative and do something we havent done before, the fighter should literally feel like you are swinging your weapon with different styles techniques and intents, instant cast abilities not only don't address that but they are a lazy un-inspired solution which is an easy answer to a hard question.

potentially this system could suit a ranger as well, however for the love of god dont give us the terrible WoW warrior/rogue play style for the fighter.

If you were to swing a sword or axe its actually something rhythmic, intentional and you literally swing it through drawing it back and then swinging it forward with all your strength, you dont stand at the ready then just tap them with it. the game play imo needs to be authentic to that process, and not to copy pasted systems of other mmos.

e.g a rage bar a bunch of instant attacks and charging, its crap; done to death and beyond uninspired, if it is just going to be another wow clone of the warrior theres no point in having the class in ashes because they have already perfected that version of boring gameplay.

Would love to hear some ideas for a way which you can immersively feel like the fighter is actually swinging their sword and not just spamming instants when the buttons light up though,

Edit:
sorry i might sound a little on edge, but i cant express how passionately i dont want the fighter to be just another version of WoW's warrior, the approach which soooo many mmos take... that would absolutely devestating.

Daerax

@Archeon
Well, honestly, I love WoW's combat. And I mostly played warrior there too.

I have plenty of issues with that game, but combat is one thing I really enjoy there (ofc, leveling with that system is horrible and mind numbing, but for arena/dungeons, I just like it).

By that I don't mean I would necessarily want Ashes to copy that, not that it would ever happen. I am happy to try something new. But for me, instant abilities kind of fit melee classes. Sure, it might not be that authentic, I see your point, but I also don't care about that that much honestly. But as a melee it is sometimes hard enough to stay on the enemy. When you add the fact, that you will need to be more precise with your directional aim (in WoW, it's enough to have someone in 180° cone in front of you which won't be the case in AoC as I understand it), I think it's too much of a hassle to add abilities you need to cast and time the release corectly into the mix. It seems pretty cool for PvE but I don't like the idea when there will be rogue with some sprint-like ability running in and out of my range and all around me.

Archeon

@Daerax

That kind of brings in the element of risk vs reward though right, which always offers more exciting gameplay, and in a way further increases the immersion and realism.

I mean in a fight, you arent going to get away with every mammoth swing or haymaker, you go in with the short sharp guanteed attacks and save that massive swing for when you have the opportunity.

Maybe you go on the rogue with some quick attacks stack up the damage which have a 0-0.9 swing time and are nearly guaranteed to hit, hit them with a bleed and as they are running away you hit them with a Rush which stuns them, lining you up for a huge 3 second swing, which then stuns them again, allowing you to quickly finish them off.

The idea of the fighter is you deal these huuuuge devastating blows, and while they may not be fast or hit every time, when they do connect they smash the enemy into the ground, instants should be on rogues for example which is looking to get off a quick flury of attacks.... but when that rogue decides to be a bit too greedy and stay in too long vs the fighter, thats when the fighter is going to knock that stealthy b$#tard into the ground haha

New systems and the unfamiliar are always going to be a bit of a learning curve, but this could be something amazing.

Daerax

@Archeon
Sure, it could be amazing, no doubt. Who knows. But when I am pressing my buttons while playing warrior/priest/rogue, I want it to be fluid, I want every button to be meaningful. I don't really care if it in any way reflects how it would feel doing something similar IRL. I guess immersion and realism isn't really important to me in combat. There are other places in game for that where I find it more important.

When I try to imagine that system with the experience I have with other games (which is mostly WoW tbh), it just seems kind of clunky. I don't really see the value of this compared to having different abilities for the effects you described. Just extra thing to worry about which isn't really worth it in my opinion.

But I must admit it's really good idea. And since in best case scenario every archetype will have distinct playstyle and something really specific for them, something like that could do the work for fighter. Even though in this case I would probably have to cut fighter from my TOP 3, just because it's not for me definitely doesn't mean it's bad system.

To me it seems like really interesting system for single player game. Not sure if I would want to deal with that in MMO though.

Archeon

Daerax wrote: »

@Archeon
Sure, it could be amazing, no doubt. Who knows. But when I am pressing my buttons while playing warrior/priest/rogue, I want it to be fluid

Mmm I see, however I dont understand what you mean when you say this system would not be fluid , in fact the entire system is based on fluidity with one swing into the next with no cool downs, the only thing slowing is how you actually want to swing at the target? do you mean you want the system to be instant and twitch-based, where it isnt about fluidity but rather button spamming, governed by cool-downs like wow?

I would say wow definitely isnt fluid at all, in fact its the exact opposite.

I actually want to play a warrior not just play a different version of melee "DPS" with a model change.

If they copy paste warriors from wow into ashes, or even slightly design the class in any way to resemble it I definitely wont be playing it, I want something fluid not twitch-based, with instants.

I think wow has caused too many people to limit their scope into believing that classes should be x y or z, when in reality if you play other games, you realise pretty quickly wows version of twitch-based non-fluid game play doesnt only feel nothing like playing a warrior but is pretty bad in general.

clone63

I like your idea of adding variation in swing times to change the effect of an attack. Mechanically, it becomes more like spell casting, except you are holding to cast (for choice of 3 spells) instead of tapping for a spell to start the required cast time, so I think with one more variation it could define itself a little better.
Perhaps not that the base effect changes, but rather, the investment in time returns multitudes over the same effect to emphasize risk vs. reward, since 'charging up' an attack is pretty risky in a fight, especially if damage or statuses crap out what you've charged. E.g., shortest time: 50% damage. Mid time: 80% damage and a bleed effect. Longest: 125% damage and 3 bleeding effects.

I too fear melee combat being a repetitive sequence of keys type of play. Staring at my hot bar is not combat.

Archeon

@clone63

Mmm yeah thats actually a really nice suggestion, However I think one of the good things about having different modifers on the swing is that it incentivises the player to actually use a range of swing times especially in pve, and in pvp rather then them just spamming max time swing repetitiously for example if they need to keep expose up bleed up simultaneously and then max swing time for damage its alot more interesting them spam max swing; the damage multiplyer already rewards the fighter for taking the risk of a biiiig swing haha, and it adds a layer of control and "swordsmanship" to it in that the fighter is intricately controlling each swing, idk what do you think

Exactly, the idea of spamming a rotation of instant abilities in repetition in no way relates to the style of play and was literally copied across every class as what would seem like a bandage solution...

Playing a class should feel intrinsically and distinctly related to what your playing, a fighter should feel nothing like a rouge, whereas in wow they pretty much feel exactly the same when doing a rotation; an experience which is quite literally antithetical to achieving immersion.

Instant cast cool-down governed rotations need to be left in the past where they were developed, the system is quite literally ancient, and is only there because inertia in the industry.

Edit: reviewed my thoughts about the swing times

Daerax

@Archeon
True, fluid may not be the best term for that, but I can't really come up with anything more fitting right now. But let's say the rotation or just chaining different abilities together works for me in WoW. Also saying that warrior and rogue feel the same just because they are melee and use instant abilities is terrible oversimplification. Not sure about retail, it might be the case. But for example in TBC, with their specific resource management and rogue's proactive aproach to that compared to warrior's more reactive gameplay? Sure, they use instant abilities but that's it. They have quite distinct playstyles.

I would definitely prefer instant abilities for basic dps "rotation" for melee (I don't think we will have rotation in traditioal sense, but I hope you know what I mean). Sure, WoW might limit my scope, I spent most of my time in this game. But it's not like I didn't try other games. Still think the WoW's combat works best. I mean sure, WoW sucks for many reason. But I sometimes feel like some people hate it so much they find it hard to imagine there are systems in the game many people genuinely enjoy and it's not just that they don't know any better. Just because idea comes from WoW doesn't automatically make it objectively bad.

But I really like @clone63 's suggestion for some abilities. Especially CC or hard hitting attacks on longer cooldown. This is where I feel the risk vs reward principle fits a bit better. It's similar to what I mentioned in the first comment, but just better and more well thought out. It could give fighter something unique without negatively affecting his second to second gameplay.

And one thing is not clear to me. Would this system replace the basic weapon attacks we've seen or would it somehow coexist with that. I kind of see an issue with ability, tak has no cooldown in a game where basic attacks should probably play important role in combat.

clone63

Unfortunately, unless they decide to not use a cooldown system, there will probably be a rotation heavy type of gameplay. Maybe they can work it so enemies are highly varied and challenging with what is and isn't effective against them to keep it more thoughtful.. but from what I've seen, it's all cooldown based.

My issue with cooldowns is it almost guarantees a play formula for 'best' sequence of abilities. It is also frustrating from a design and immersion perspective... Swinging my axe was taxing so lets wait 5 sec to do it again BUT HERE COMES THE EXPLOSIVE GROUND STOMP!! what?
An energy system is most logical in regards to well.. logic: We're all free to do what we want until we're too tired to do it. That is however, one of the worst for balance and has a similar issue. Burst out the most effective use of energy until it's gone.

I like the idea of heavily contextual and reactionary stances and moves (ex., a knockdown move that only works if an opponent fails a type of attack, or a special attack that can only happen after a specific sequence of successful attacks, orr.. a defensively posturing move that prevents some statuses for the next 5 sec.). You could almost remove cooldowns entirely since most of them wouldn't function without something else happening. It would make bosses tough as many would be too powerful to be affected by physical statuses.
The context of the moves would be heavily class focused: rogues get positional and escalating combos, some risky escape moves, tanks get defensive stuff... fighters get the versatility mix bag.
Magic is the wild card and has a lot of creative potential in balancing: mana, rune charge time, physical objects that are consumed for spells, mana burn whatever you call it, you can employ whatever mechanic you want to balance its use.

Archeon

@Daerax
The idea was that this would compliment a wide range of abilities, the intent was that the entire class would be more focused around actually swinging your weapon and this is simply just a jumping point for it.

Just thinking of 4 off the top of my head:

Maybe theres a Heroic Throw ability which does a Linear weapon throw where the fighter throws their weapon in a line damaging and dazing all enemies struck, and then the fighter may actually use rush on their weapon to reclaim it, performing an instant leg-swipe whirlwind on reaching it.

Maybe theres a Riposte ability where upon the enemy parrying you have 0-1 second allowing you to perform a reactive instant strike disarming them and applying expose weakness

Maybe theres a Whirlwind ability where the fighter holds down the X key and starts to wind up and when releasing they spin in a 360 spin which depending on the windup e.g 0-0.9 leg-swipes all enemies nearby for 50% damage and slows them for 50% speed, 1.0-1.9 Crushing Blows all enemies for 75% damage and stunning for 1 second, 2.0-3.0 seconds Blade Storm and knocks all enemies within 5 meters, 10 meters from the centre of the vortex, allowing a huge amount of peel and utility for example rushing near a healer and getting players or npcs off them.

Maybe theres a Bellowing Roar ability
Where upon charging for 0.5 Seconds buffs all party members increasing damage and making them fear immune for 5 seconds, charging for 1 second dazes all nearby enemies in a nearby area, and on 2 seconds causes all nearby enemies to flee in terror.

Edit: I will add these to the first post.

@clone63

All I can say is agree, agree agree hahaha I love reactive contextual gameplay, and I definitely think that energy is the way to go and makes for better gameplay overall.

Edit:

Added a new ability Ruthless Kick, which allows combo playes

insomnia

This dosen't seem fitting for this type of game. That is for a different type of game

Archeon

insomnia wrote: »

This dosen't seem fitting for this type of game. That is for a different type of game

I guess it depends if your view on what an mmo is is a copy of wow, most games before it were nothing like it and some still aren’t.

A game which uses the same systems as wow isn’t a new mmo it’s a watered down clone, and for the most part it’s why the mmo genre hasn’t been seeing success, literally game after game being spun out with slight variations on one games take on the mmo genre.

There’s a reason why battle royals and games like poe saw success and it isn’t because they just copy pasted another games systems, although that is being seen now...

If your approach to design and innovation is to copy something else then you aren’t doing anything new, I don’t want to play wow with a node system I’m not sure if you do, but that’s a sure fire way to lose market share, wow has perfected the clunky and archaic system of instants and cds, if the intent is just to copy the most critical element of a game e.g the gameplay, and just add systems, all wow has to do is implement the exact same systems, which I guarantee they can do better and faster given their financial backing and they have a better game with an established franchise, greater market share and more money

This system definitely doesn’t have to be the one chosen, but thinking or suggesting that copying wows gameplay is a good idea, let alone that wows gameplay defines the mmorpg genre is ridiculous. a game which is literally 15 years old being the model for ashes which is meant to be the the solution to revitalising an aging genre is on face value is as ridiculous as it’s sounds.

szelesbt

want to play fighter, dsnt like this swing thingy
hitting buttons when they light up sounds fine with me XD
i just want to go in, and deal consistent big dmg, and watch the big numbers flying
then probably die to the kiting ranged

Daerax

Archeon wrote: »

insomnia wrote: »

This dosen't seem fitting for this type of game. That is for a different type of game

I guess it depends if your view on what an mmo is is a copy of wow, most games before it were nothing like it and some still aren’t.

A game which uses the same systems as wow isn’t a new mmo it’s a watered down clone, and for the most part it’s why the mmo genre hasn’t been seeing success, literally game after game being spun out with slight variations on one games take on the mmo genre.

There’s a reason why battle royals and games like poe saw success and it isn’t because they just copy pasted another games systems, although that is being seen now...

If your approach to design and innovation is to copy something else then you aren’t doing anything new, I don’t want to play wow with a node system I’m not sure if you do, but that’s a sure fire way to lose market share, wow has perfected the clunky and archaic system of instants and cds, if the intent is just to copy the most critical element of a game e.g the gameplay, and just add systems, all wow has to do is implement the exact same systems, which I guarantee they can do better and faster given their financial backing and they have a better game with an established franchise, greater market share and more money

This system definitely doesn’t have to be the one chosen, but thinking or suggesting that copying wows gameplay is a good idea, let alone that wows gameplay defines the mmorpg genre is ridiculous. a game which is literally 15 years old being the model for ashes which is meant to be the the solution to revitalising an aging genre is on face value is as ridiculous as it’s sounds.

MMO genre hasn't been seeing success lately, it's true. But I wouldn't exactly blame combat for that. A lot of games try to copy WoW and fail miserably or try to be too different and become more of a niche. But the major issue is that WoW greatly affects MMO genre while hardly being MMO anymore. Systems like LFR and cross realm play are much worse offenders. This is why the genre fails, not because the combat si 15 years old. Ashes needs to be different by coming back to MMOrpg roots with emphasis on systems that encourage playing in community etc, which seems like it will be.

Sure, it shouldn't be carbon-copy of WoW, but with hybrid combat and even smaller things like active basic attacks, it obviously won't be. I am also not saying they shouldn't try something new or be innovative at all. But considering who I assume to be the target audience, in my opinion, combat must be first of all responsive, clean and easy to grasp. It doesn't need to be something that was never seen before for the game to be successful.

That said, I like some of your ideas. I am fan of reactive abilities in general and really like what you did with that Heroic throw/rush interaction. I just don't believe that they should try to reinvent the wheel.

Archeon

@Daerax, I would actually blame a huge part of it on combat, when gameplay literally stays the same since launch and the only thing which really changes how a player interacts whether their ability is on or off the gcd in relation to how fast they can spam it while popping cds, there isnt really alot of diversity or complexity available to it, the issue is that wow's combat in itself actually limits itself.

The reaility is your interaction with WoW is binary, your literal only interaction with the game is boolean, if yes do this... theres no ability to moderate the extent of effects because the system was never introduced because the controls are limited by their 15 year old baseline scripting.

Can you moderate the strength of your frost bolt? no, you cant hold it down then release it early to get a half power frost bolt off, you hit the key and it begins channeling, and it casts or its cancelled.

Can you moderate the strength of a mortal strike by winding up the swing before releasing it? no, because its based on archaic scripting, you hit a button and the server recieves the input and instantly reacts, the gameplay is not dynamic and does not allow for dynamic interplay.

Can you remember the first fps shooters? you hit the grenade button and it instantly threw it, now its literally expected that you are able to moderate the strength of the throw by holding it down, if it didnt people would assume the game was bugged, or sucked. Or when you focus aim on a rifle, if you do it for too long you lose accuracy and vision and it starts to shake.

These systems literally didnt exist 15 years ago, if they are missing from a game now would quite arguably feel outdated, and these arent even core systems its just peripheral scripting which over time has been taken for granted as an expectation within the game.

The only reason we havent seen innovation and systems like this introduced into the mmorpg genre is because as has been repeatedly stated recently by countless content creators the genre has become stale with so many game developers creating diluted filtered down versions of the same base game... WoW, and none of them daring to go a step further or to take it to the next level, so the lack of innovation has become the norm and people have become comfortable with it.

Thats why Im so excited when I hear a game like ashes plans to take the genre to the next level and evolve it past the stale state of stagnation which the industry has experienced for the past 15 years. And thats why I see the opportunity for this game take the mmo experience to the next level... past the mindless button mashing of wow as you pop your next cd and spam instants, to actually immersive and dynamic gameplay which is based on active and tactical interaction with your character, you want your character to hit the enemy differently? then you push the keyboard or mouse differently, dont just go from pushing button 1 to pushing button 2.

Combat can be clean and responsive, without being wow, hell 99% of the gaming industry isnt wow and it seems to do allright, im not sure why some people think mmo and instantly think it has to be a carbon copy of wow. WoW has hybrid combat, what is being proposed is literally the same, you place aoes in wow, you line up skill-shots and beams in wow, I honestly cant see how its impactfully different.

Cheers, however as I said my ideas are just ideas, and none of them lshould be taken as literal or definitive in some sort of "this is how it must be done" manner, its more of a framework to reimagine how things could be done, imagine if playing a mage wasnt pushing a button and it starts casting fireball as the current trailer shows which is literally identical to wow, imagine if mages operated in the player inputting different combinations of arcane runes to weave their spells, e.g they key bound them to 1, 2, and 3 and a combination of 3 of them cast a different spell, that would be awesome! just food for thought like 1,1,2 for fireball and 2,2,1 for frost bolt, and the players cast speed was quite literally defined by how fast they could actually cast the spell, rather then hitting a button and watching a cast part count down as we have for the past 15-20 years.

Just food for thought, but games are evolving in literally every other genre, just because ours stagnated due to the prevalence of one game doesnt mean its doomed to that future forever, we just need to be innovative, creative and think what would actually be innovative and awesome, not what is boring safe and has been done to death...

insomnia

There is a saying. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
To do something different, with an mmo, dosen't mean you have to change every aspect of it

Archeon

insomnia wrote: »

There is a saying. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

There is a saying. you cant polish a piece of ... and wow's combat system is most definitely that.

insomnia wrote: »

To do something different, with an mmo, dosen't mean you have to change every aspect of it

This statement implying that in your view WoW and its gameplay defines what an MMO is, to which I would reply you have literally know idea what an mmo is in that case.

Archeon wrote: »

@Daerax, I would actually blame a huge part of it on combat, when gameplay literally stays the same since launch and the only thing which really changes how a player interacts whether their ability is on or off the gcd in relation to how fast they can spam it while popping cds, there isnt really alot of diversity or complexity available to it, the issue is that wow's combat in itself actually limits itself.

The reaility is your interaction with WoW is binary, your literal only interaction with the game is boolean, if yes do this... theres no ability to moderate the extent of effects because the system was never introduced because the controls are limited by their 15 year old baseline scripting.

Can you moderate the strength of your frost bolt? no, you cant hold it down then release it early to get a half power frost bolt off, you hit the key and it begins channeling, and it casts or its cancelled.

Can you moderate the strength of a mortal strike by winding up the swing before releasing it? no, because its based on archaic scripting, you hit a button and the server recieves the input and instantly reacts, the gameplay is not dynamic and does not allow for dynamic interplay.

Can you remember the first fps shooters? you hit the grenade button and it instantly threw it, now its literally expected that you are able to moderate the strength of the throw by holding it down, if it didnt people would assume the game was bugged, or sucked. Or when you focus aim on a rifle, if you do it for too long you lose accuracy and vision and it starts to shake.

These systems literally didnt exist 15 years ago, if they are missing from a game now would quite arguably feel outdated, and these arent even core systems its just peripheral scripting which over time has been taken for granted as an expectation within the game.

The only reason we havent seen innovation and systems like this introduced into the mmorpg genre is because as has been repeatedly stated recently by countless content creators the genre has become stale with so many game developers creating diluted filtered down versions of the same base game... WoW, and none of them daring to go a step further or to take it to the next level, so the lack of innovation has become the norm and people have become comfortable with it.

Thats why Im so excited when I hear a game like ashes plans to take the genre to the next level and evolve it past the stale state of stagnation which the industry has experienced for the past 15 years. And thats why I see the opportunity for this game take the mmo experience to the next level... past the mindless button mashing of wow as you pop your next cd and spam instants, to actually immersive and dynamic gameplay which is based on active and tactical interaction with your character, you want your character to hit the enemy differently? then you push the keyboard or mouse differently, dont just go from pushing button 1 to pushing button 2.

Combat can be clean and responsive, without being wow, hell 99% of the gaming industry isnt wow and it seems to do allright, im not sure why some people think mmo and instantly think it has to be a carbon copy of wow. WoW has hybrid combat, what is being proposed is literally the same, you place aoes in wow, you line up skill-shots and beams in wow, I honestly cant see how its impactfully different.

Cheers, however as I said my ideas are just ideas, and none of them lshould be taken as literal or definitive in some sort of "this is how it must be done" manner, its more of a framework to reimagine how things could be done, imagine if playing a mage wasnt pushing a button and it starts casting fireball as the current trailer shows which is literally identical to wow, imagine if mages operated in the player inputting different combinations of arcane runes to weave their spells, e.g they key bound them to 1, 2, and 3 and a combination of 3 of them cast a different spell, that would be awesome! just food for thought like 1,1,2 for fireball and 2,2,1 for frost bolt, and the players cast speed was quite literally defined by how fast they could actually cast the spell, rather then hitting a button and watching a cast part count down as we have for the past 15-20 years.

Just food for thought, but games are evolving in literally every other genre, just because ours stagnated due to the prevalence of one game doesnt mean its doomed to that future forever, we just need to be innovative, creative and think what would actually be innovative and awesome, not what is boring safe and has been done to death...

George_Black

1) For me a succesful fighter archetype must be able to use all melee weapons effectivelly. Having said that, a fighter should be worse than a knight in using shields.
If a Fighter can't be a real master of the AoC melee weapons, but rather is forced into two handed, then the identity of the class has failed. I want to see dual wield fighters, spear, two handed, sword shield, staff, you name it.

2) A fighter should be able to engage but not disengage. Disengage should be the selling point of Rogues and at a lesser extend Mages. If you go in either win or die.

3) A fighter should be the balanced melee class. Hit hard but not the hardest. Endure, but not like a tank.

4) A fighter should have more active attack abilities than a rogue. A mix of raw dmg, dmg + CC, Dmg + debuff, dmg + self buff. Constantly hitting one target after another, wheras a rogue should plan a killer rotation on a critical target abd disengage, a knight should look around to control the enemies and aid the allies
A fighter should also have aggressive short duration buffs. Also, the necessary MP/mp recovery to keep fighting. Less than a tank, which tank should last longer in a fight, more than a rogue, which rogue should make use of his MP and get out to plan the next strike.

5) In games like Tera I have seen the fighter using counter attacks. I would like to see that for Fighters and Rogues in AoC.

I am very disappointed by the representation of fighter or warrior classes in most games.
I have enjoyed the Gladiator and Warrior from L2 and Tera.

AA, BDO, FFXIV, Eso didn't do it for me. Very narrow options.

Recluse74

Fighter class to me always seem to become the jack of all trade, master of none builds. Good close up damage, but not the best, has long range abilities, but not the best, can tank in a pinch, but not suitable for full time tanking... the list goes on. Every other class seems to have one thing they are unmatched in. Of course my MMO experience is limited compared to most of you all.. So I cannot speak for all the other games I have not played.

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