maybe not a dps meter but what about this...

What do you guys think about this idea that I just got...? There is a lot of people who do not want dps meters and there is a lot of people who want to improve skill rotation, right? What if we had a trainig zone were there are those Training Dummy which tells you how´s doing dps doing compare to other players? if ya want to see how you are actually doing so you must go to the training zone and check it out, these Trainig Dummy could copilate all the info from others players and let you know if your dps is low/medium or high (just lets us knows if very low,low, high,medium.etc)

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Marcet

Noaani wrote: »

Marcet wrote: »

Ya'll addicted to dps meters in your past games, just get used to not having it, and maybe you like it even more.

Personally I don't want an interface telling me damage bars and numbers, and for god sake not on launch day, with the game brand new and already staining it with garbage addons.

Why get used to not having one when instead we can just have one?

Im gonna tell you exactly why, are you ready?

Because a lot of people don't like it.

Hedgemon

simply put. DPS meters are metagaming. And a MMORPG is a RP game at its core. You dont have to RP but the idea of the game is to be in character. DPS meters are meta and not incharacter.

Cataphract

No DPS meters. The game should focus on making an immersive experience, not minmaxing gear/rotations to maximize damage. If the content is so hard at release it requires maximized DPS from group members to progress, then this game will flounder because WoW will always do that type of MMO better. Leave the gatekeeping/metagaming concepts with WoW, please.

Saedu

Marcet wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Marcet wrote: »

Ya'll addicted to dps meters in your past games, just get used to not having it, and maybe you like it even more.

Personally I don't want an interface telling me damage bars and numbers, and for god sake not on launch day, with the game brand new and already staining it with garbage addons.

Why get used to not having one when instead we can just have one?

Im gonna tell you exactly why, are you ready?

Because a lot of people don't like it.

But a lot of people don't like pvp....

A lot of people do like meters...

Not the strongest argument here.

Neaux

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

On the other hand, doesn't it pretty inherently lead to leetism? The classes are NOT balanced to be equal to eachother. Yours truly greatly enjoy raids - but not if EVERY healer has to be this-or-that spec of Cleric, or EVERY damage-dealer MUST be a specific class because it has 20 more total DPS than any other class on a scale of 10000.

I haven't seen the info that others have that points to Intrepid's lack of affinity for meters, but the quote above is my best guess as to why meters haven't been a priority for them.

I know they've stated that groups will be balanced around an 8 person combo which we can assume to be the 8 primary classes. It might just be that your DPS, Healing or Mitigation etc will be so affected by the presence of other classes that that they feel not much can be gained from tracking numbers. By the time you add in all of the abilities and augments of all of the other classes in the party that add to your DPS, and further, all of the abilities and augments that classes may use to weaken your target, will you really know how your damage compares to a Spellmancer in another party? .. or even in the same party given they've mentioned proximity can play a role.

Regardless, meters can be a valuable tool for those that want to use them and they are easy to implement, so like it or not, if Intrepid really is against them I think they will eventually cave and implement them (or allow the parsing of data at least).

Noaani

Marcet wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Marcet wrote: »

Ya'll addicted to dps meters in your past games, just get used to not having it, and maybe you like it even more.

Personally I don't want an interface telling me damage bars and numbers, and for god sake not on launch day, with the game brand new and already staining it with garbage addons.

Why get used to not having one when instead we can just have one?

Im gonna tell you exactly why, are you ready?

Because a lot of people don't like it.

This may come as a shock to you, but what other people like or dont like doesn't overly affect me.

I mean, I can run one and you can not run one, how is that an issue?

Noaani

Hedgemon wrote: »

simply put. DPS meters are metagaming. And a MMORPG is a RP game at its core. You dont have to RP but the idea of the game is to be in character. DPS meters are meta and not incharacter.

Well, this isn't exactly accurate.

I RP characters that analyze their actions in combat in order to improve themselves. In order to do that, they need data from said combat.

Khronus

Noaani wrote: »

Khronus wrote: »

I have a few methods I am planning on implementing with my guild to help with rotations and to maximize dps. There are ways to do this without a dps meter addon, people just need to figure it out. Obviously these methods will change depending on whatever information we get as the game gets closer to launch. At the end of the day, target dummies and dps meters should not be added into the game IMO.

I'm curious, if it turns out that I have access to a combat tracker as functional as ACT, and this gives me and my guild the obvious advantage that it will give, would your opinion on this matter change?

If your answer is "I hope people that use it get banned", I would point out to you that all it is doing is rearranging information that Intrepid is giving us all anyway, and there is neither a need nor a way to ban an account t for making use of the information Intrepid give us.

That would definitely NOT be my response lol. If you have a way to gather this information easier, then I will use it as well. My answer comes from a hope that I will not have to rely on a dps meter to gather my information but instead have more of a rough time that helps promote more 1 on 1 interactions rather than sizing someone up to a universal number. I am looking forward to a unique (blind) approach to organizing my guild and helping out the members. Obviously I will use any and all tools in front of me to ensure our success.....but if the tools in front of us happen to be crude AF, I would accept this as another obstacle to overcome.

Noaani

Khronus wrote: »

if the tools in front of us happen to be crude AF, I would accept this as another obstacle to overcome.

As would I.

My way of overcoming it would be to develop less crude tools, since that is always an option.

Tragnar

MMO is supposed to entertain a spectrum of players, I know that games with meters tend to punish players that do not like meters in any way - that is understandable. The best way for both type of players is to find an ingame control solution about tracking useful information.

The fact is that current approach to "no meter ever" is handicapping itself when the game actually shows you damage numbers.

Also I totally disagree with the opinion that showing information is causing toxicity. Information is power and it is on each player if they want to be toxic with the acquired information. What I am more afraid of is how easy it is going to be to replace people. When you can get a replacement in a few minutes then there will be gatekeeping even without meters

Recluse74

Tragnar wrote: »

MMO is supposed to entertain a spectrum of players, I know that games with meters tend to punish players that do not like meters in any way - that is understandable. The best way for both type of players is to find an ingame control solution about tracking useful information.

The fact is that current approach to "no meter ever" is handicapping itself when the game actually shows you damage numbers.

Also I totally disagree with the opinion that showing information is causing toxicity. Information is power and it is on each player if they want to be toxic with the acquired information. What I am more afraid of is how easy it is going to be to replace people. When you can get a replacement in a few minutes then there will be gatekeeping even without meters

I think the entire argument between DPS/Non DPS meters, is old school vs new school MMO players. Neither are wrong. It is just a different way of playing. With Old School.. failure is expected along the journey while New school, failure is expected, just don't let it happen again lol. Not to that extreme all of the time.. but some of the time.

Replacing... sucks to me. But I completely understand it. Some people just choose classes they either were not meant to play or do not understand the mechanics and timing of, and sometimes they are just not coordinated enough to play the class.

Tragnar

there is part of old school mmo that you can never bring back, times have changed and at least in my opinion people back then were not trying to play in the best way, because they simply had no idea on what is actually achievable and when you show anyone what is possible - the odds are that they will want to try it

Recluse74

Tragnar wrote: »

there is part of old school mmo that you can never bring back, times have changed and at least in my opinion people back then were not trying to play in the best way, because they simply had no idea on what is actually achievable and when you show anyone what is possible - the odds are that they will want to try it

Meh, there was plenty of theory crafting on rotations and whatnot back then as well.. Skill rotations in PvE were important for cooldown timing... and a different skill rotation was used in PvP because you would hold certain skills for certain situations instead of just spamming them and not having them available when it arose.

These were all things we learned by talking to each other or watching others in the PvP arena. I got help from a Gladiator in a Rival clan after he watched me lose to a guy he did not like very much. His advice helped me win my next couple of fights.

Just like I have mentioned before, I do not have a huge issue with DPS meters. I may even use one if it is not considered cheating.. But in the end, I do not want the DPS meter to push me into a way of playing I do not enjoy.

I do not want to roll a warrior for example.. and be told that a warrior with these buffs and skills can do more ranged DPS than a warrior with my build with sword and I should change.. Obviously I would not change even if it meant getting kicked, but it would basically make me down on my class... (Noanni Disclaimer) I am not saying this will happen.. it was an over the top example to show my meaning.

Dygz

Recluse74 wrote: »

I do not want the DPS meter to push me into a way of playing I do not enjoy.

I do not want to roll a warrior for example.. and be told that a warrior with these buffs and skills can do more ranged DPS than a warrior with my build with sword and I should change.. Obviously I would not change even if it meant getting kicked.

Exactly.
If I am an Ice Wizard rather than a Repel Wizard, I couldn't care less how much more DPS Repel does than Ice.
If I am a Feral Druid, don't demand I switch to Restoration Druid.
We should be able to figure out how to kill the boss with an Ice Wizard rather than always requiring a Repel Wizard. And we should be able to figure out how to kill the boss with a Feral Druid rather than a Restoration Druid.

I don't play RPGs for DPS. I play RPGs to figure out how we get the roles and specs we have in the party to defeat the challenges. Doesn't matter how long it takes to do so. What matters is that each player enjoys playing the characters they've built. DPS should not have to be the primary determination of defeating a boss.
My favorite scene in Log Horizon builds off that idea - asking each player why they use the abilities they've chosen to use and then working out how to synergize those with the other abilities in the party.

Saedu

Dygz wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

I do not want the DPS meter to push me into a way of playing I do not enjoy.

I do not want to roll a warrior for example.. and be told that a warrior with these buffs and skills can do more ranged DPS than a warrior with my build with sword and I should change.. Obviously I would not change even if it meant getting kicked.

Exactly.
If I am an Ice Wizard rather than a Repel Wizard, I couldn't care less how much more DPS Repel does than Ice.
If I am a Feral Druid, don't demand I switch to Restoration Druid.
We should be able to figure out how to kill the boss with an Ice Wizard rather than always requiring a Repel Wizard. And we should be able to figure out how to kill the boss with a Feral Druid rather than a Restoration Druid.

I don't play RPGs for DPS. I play RPGs to figure out how we get the roles and specs we have in the party to defeat the challenges. Doesn't matter how long it takes to do so. What matters is that each player enjoys playing the characters they've built. DPS should not have to be the primary determination of defeating a boss.
My favorite scene in Log Horizon builds off that idea - asking each player why they use the abilities they've chosen to use and then working out how to synergize those with the other abilities in the party.

The problem you are describing is one of balancing different specs so that they perform at near the same level. Not having combat trackers.

Inixia

I think people are going to be disappointed who think that banning dps meters is a silver bullet to elitism and scrutiny of class picks.

Elitism exists in every mmo, metrics may even give some people an objective skill based look at players that actually gets past guild leaders entrenched views of favorites. Don't think that's going away, especially in a game with pvp as a primary feature, it will just take on different forms. The real difference in tackling elitism is really how the community and players/guilds respond to it (not whether or not metrics exist).

I'm not even sure it will stop parsing different classes. It will just make it inconvenient. It not too hard though to shift to 'legal' in game measures for testing specs like who can burn a steady healthed mob the quickest. If you know the health, its not hard to figure out the output as a measure of time. The biggest change will be that it prevents informed decisions mid-raid without knowing which mechanics and areas you might be struggling (so get used to a lot of blind finger pointing), and also prevents mid-raid goals for players to strive for imo. But I get people's caution, I just think it won't actually help their intended goals by an outright ban, and may better tackled by social or indirect guidelines.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

I do not want the DPS meter to push me into a way of playing I do not enjoy.

I do not want to roll a warrior for example.. and be told that a warrior with these buffs and skills can do more ranged DPS than a warrior with my build with sword and I should change.. Obviously I would not change even if it meant getting kicked.

Exactly.
If I am an Ice Wizard rather than a Repel Wizard, I couldn't care less how much more DPS Repel does than Ice.

If you're a wizard that is doing less DPS than another type of wizard, and my raid of 40 players needs more DPS to progress, if you are not willing to switch to that higher DPS role in order to allow the other 39 people there to progress, what the actual fuck are you even doing there?

Raiding isn't about you. It isn't about me. It doesn't care about the individual. That is what solo content is for.

If you want to be a part of a team and do what that team needs you to do, then you join a raid. If you are not willing to do what the team needs you to do, if you just want to get your rocks off being the build you want to play, then don't join a raid.

This is not a combat tracker issue, this is the mentality of a selfish person wanting to do what they want to do, even if it means dragging down 39 other players vs people that are willing - and even enjoy - working as a part of a team.

Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

I do not want the DPS meter to push me into a way of playing I do not enjoy.

I do not want to roll a warrior for example.. and be told that a warrior with these buffs and skills can do more ranged DPS than a warrior with my build with sword and I should change.. Obviously I would not change even if it meant getting kicked.

Exactly.
If I am an Ice Wizard rather than a Repel Wizard, I couldn't care less how much more DPS Repel does than Ice.

If you're a wizard that is doing less DPS than another type of wizard, and my raid of 40 players needs more DPS to progress, if you are not willing to switch to that higher DPS role in order to allow the other 39 people there to progress, what the actual fuck are you even doing there?

Raiding isn't about you. It isn't about me. It doesn't care about the individual. That is what solo content is for.

If you want to be a part of a team and do what that team needs you to do, then you join a raid. If you are not willing to do what the team needs you to do, if you just want to get your rocks off being the build you want to play, then don't join a raid.

This is not a combat tracker issue, this is the mentality of a selfish person wanting to do what they want to do, even if it means dragging down 39 other players vs people that are willing - and even enjoy - working as a part of a team.

So you must be one of those 1%'ers you are always talking about. Congrats!

Blackhearted

If ure lacking that 0.02% of dps from one player and u didnt know that without some sort of dps meter. Would it mean that u just throw in the towel or look for new methods and strategies to deal with the boss?

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

I do not want the DPS meter to push me into a way of playing I do not enjoy.

I do not want to roll a warrior for example.. and be told that a warrior with these buffs and skills can do more ranged DPS than a warrior with my build with sword and I should change.. Obviously I would not change even if it meant getting kicked.

Exactly.
If I am an Ice Wizard rather than a Repel Wizard, I couldn't care less how much more DPS Repel does than Ice.

If you're a wizard that is doing less DPS than another type of wizard, and my raid of 40 players needs more DPS to progress, if you are not willing to switch to that higher DPS role in order to allow the other 39 people there to progress, what the actual fuck are you even doing there?

Raiding isn't about you. It isn't about me. It doesn't care about the individual. That is what solo content is for.

If you want to be a part of a team and do what that team needs you to do, then you join a raid. If you are not willing to do what the team needs you to do, if you just want to get your rocks off being the build you want to play, then don't join a raid.

This is not a combat tracker issue, this is the mentality of a selfish person wanting to do what they want to do, even if it means dragging down 39 other players vs people that are willing - and even enjoy - working as a part of a team.

So you must be one of those 1%'ers you are always talking about. Congrats!

I would put myself more in the top 2%, not 1% - and even then, only of PvE players.

Blackhearted wrote: »

If ure lacking that 0.02% of dps from one player and u didnt know that without some sort of dps meter. Would it mean that u just throw in the towel or look for new methods and strategies to deal with the boss?

If it were that low, no one would care.

Thing is, the difference between builds in many games can be as much as 20 - 30%. That is noticeable, and no one claiming to want to be a part of a team that has a specific goal in mind has the right to single handedly prevent that team from reaching their goal and not expect to be removed from said team.

If you don't want to care about your performance, join a guild that doesn't care about your performance. If you join a guild that cares about performance, then do what you can to improve your performance.

Is there some part of that you disagree with?

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