Recluse74 wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics... or life for that mater. Fighting Fire with Fire in a MMO is not a thing usually. DPS meters should not be needed for common sense, and sounds like your guild leader might have been ignorant in that fact. Cannot hate the person, maybe they just did not know or care. Either way... ignorance in common MMO mechanics is a common thing, and usually gets figured out quickly without a DPS meter. In the end, I get it... they help fine tune builds or find builds that out perform other builds. But the last thing you want is a game with 64 classes that only utilizes 12 of them, at least I do. Lyrics from a band I love say this.. "Don’t let their school make a fool of you. Because the teachers may be fools too". We had a hunch it was suboptimal, but not right away. We had no idea how bad it was without combat trackers. Also, this is not necessarily common sense. Blizzard moved away from this design due to the inherent imbalances it introduced to certain class specs. (They chose to reduce immersion in order to better balance gameplay). For example, when they released Firelands (which ironically enough has the same end boss as the first raid coming back) there was no reduced damage for fire damage. I'm not saying Blizzards decision to do this was right or wrong, but it was in alignment with the vision of their game and it shows you cannot always make assumptions like this. Developers will choose to sacrifice immersion/realism if it aligns better to the vision if their game. I guess this is just more justification for needing combat trackers right? Nope lol... Combat trackers based on WoW's use of it does not justify it in any other game. Lineage 2, where this game draws a ton of its core game play from, did not use them, and we did just fine. Trial and error was enough to figure out what to do, and what not to do. The game referenced doesn't matter in this point. The point is you can't assume all thr mechanics in a game will follow real like mechanics... especially when talking about a class that throws fireballs!!! You may disagree with having combat trackers in a game, but there are still pros/cons either way and one pro is that a combat tracker can eliminate the risk of false assumptions like this. Playing the game with trial and error can do the same. Just takes a little bit longer, but sooner or later players will figure it out.
Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics... or life for that mater. Fighting Fire with Fire in a MMO is not a thing usually. DPS meters should not be needed for common sense, and sounds like your guild leader might have been ignorant in that fact. Cannot hate the person, maybe they just did not know or care. Either way... ignorance in common MMO mechanics is a common thing, and usually gets figured out quickly without a DPS meter. In the end, I get it... they help fine tune builds or find builds that out perform other builds. But the last thing you want is a game with 64 classes that only utilizes 12 of them, at least I do. Lyrics from a band I love say this.. "Don’t let their school make a fool of you. Because the teachers may be fools too". We had a hunch it was suboptimal, but not right away. We had no idea how bad it was without combat trackers. Also, this is not necessarily common sense. Blizzard moved away from this design due to the inherent imbalances it introduced to certain class specs. (They chose to reduce immersion in order to better balance gameplay). For example, when they released Firelands (which ironically enough has the same end boss as the first raid coming back) there was no reduced damage for fire damage. I'm not saying Blizzards decision to do this was right or wrong, but it was in alignment with the vision of their game and it shows you cannot always make assumptions like this. Developers will choose to sacrifice immersion/realism if it aligns better to the vision if their game. I guess this is just more justification for needing combat trackers right? Nope lol... Combat trackers based on WoW's use of it does not justify it in any other game. Lineage 2, where this game draws a ton of its core game play from, did not use them, and we did just fine. Trial and error was enough to figure out what to do, and what not to do. The game referenced doesn't matter in this point. The point is you can't assume all thr mechanics in a game will follow real like mechanics... especially when talking about a class that throws fireballs!!! You may disagree with having combat trackers in a game, but there are still pros/cons either way and one pro is that a combat tracker can eliminate the risk of false assumptions like this.
Recluse74 wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics... or life for that mater. Fighting Fire with Fire in a MMO is not a thing usually. DPS meters should not be needed for common sense, and sounds like your guild leader might have been ignorant in that fact. Cannot hate the person, maybe they just did not know or care. Either way... ignorance in common MMO mechanics is a common thing, and usually gets figured out quickly without a DPS meter. In the end, I get it... they help fine tune builds or find builds that out perform other builds. But the last thing you want is a game with 64 classes that only utilizes 12 of them, at least I do. Lyrics from a band I love say this.. "Don’t let their school make a fool of you. Because the teachers may be fools too". We had a hunch it was suboptimal, but not right away. We had no idea how bad it was without combat trackers. Also, this is not necessarily common sense. Blizzard moved away from this design due to the inherent imbalances it introduced to certain class specs. (They chose to reduce immersion in order to better balance gameplay). For example, when they released Firelands (which ironically enough has the same end boss as the first raid coming back) there was no reduced damage for fire damage. I'm not saying Blizzards decision to do this was right or wrong, but it was in alignment with the vision of their game and it shows you cannot always make assumptions like this. Developers will choose to sacrifice immersion/realism if it aligns better to the vision if their game. I guess this is just more justification for needing combat trackers right? Nope lol... Combat trackers based on WoW's use of it does not justify it in any other game. Lineage 2, where this game draws a ton of its core game play from, did not use them, and we did just fine. Trial and error was enough to figure out what to do, and what not to do.
Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics... or life for that mater. Fighting Fire with Fire in a MMO is not a thing usually. DPS meters should not be needed for common sense, and sounds like your guild leader might have been ignorant in that fact. Cannot hate the person, maybe they just did not know or care. Either way... ignorance in common MMO mechanics is a common thing, and usually gets figured out quickly without a DPS meter. In the end, I get it... they help fine tune builds or find builds that out perform other builds. But the last thing you want is a game with 64 classes that only utilizes 12 of them, at least I do. Lyrics from a band I love say this.. "Don’t let their school make a fool of you. Because the teachers may be fools too". We had a hunch it was suboptimal, but not right away. We had no idea how bad it was without combat trackers. Also, this is not necessarily common sense. Blizzard moved away from this design due to the inherent imbalances it introduced to certain class specs. (They chose to reduce immersion in order to better balance gameplay). For example, when they released Firelands (which ironically enough has the same end boss as the first raid coming back) there was no reduced damage for fire damage. I'm not saying Blizzards decision to do this was right or wrong, but it was in alignment with the vision of their game and it shows you cannot always make assumptions like this. Developers will choose to sacrifice immersion/realism if it aligns better to the vision if their game. I guess this is just more justification for needing combat trackers right?
Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics... or life for that mater. Fighting Fire with Fire in a MMO is not a thing usually. DPS meters should not be needed for common sense, and sounds like your guild leader might have been ignorant in that fact. Cannot hate the person, maybe they just did not know or care. Either way... ignorance in common MMO mechanics is a common thing, and usually gets figured out quickly without a DPS meter. In the end, I get it... they help fine tune builds or find builds that out perform other builds. But the last thing you want is a game with 64 classes that only utilizes 12 of them, at least I do. Lyrics from a band I love say this.. "Don’t let their school make a fool of you. Because the teachers may be fools too".
Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics... or life for that mater. Fighting Fire with Fire in a MMO is not a thing usually. DPS meters should not be needed for common sense, and sounds like your guild leader might have been ignorant in that fact. Cannot hate the person, maybe they just did not know or care. Either way... ignorance in common MMO mechanics is a common thing, and usually gets figured out quickly without a DPS meter. In the end, I get it... they help fine tune builds or find builds that out perform other builds. But the last thing you want is a game with 64 classes that only utilizes 12 of them, at least I do. Lyrics from a band I love say this.. "Don’t let their school make a fool of you. Because the teachers may be fools too". We had a hunch it was suboptimal, but not right away. We had no idea how bad it was without combat trackers. Also, this is not necessarily common sense. Blizzard moved away from this design due to the inherent imbalances it introduced to certain class specs. (They chose to reduce immersion in order to better balance gameplay). For example, when they released Firelands (which ironically enough has the same end boss as the first raid coming back) there was no reduced damage for fire damage. I'm not saying Blizzards decision to do this was right or wrong, but it was in alignment with the vision of their game and it shows you cannot always make assumptions like this. Developers will choose to sacrifice immersion/realism if it aligns better to the vision if their game. I guess this is just more justification for needing combat trackers right? Nope lol... Combat trackers based on WoW's use of it does not justify it in any other game. Lineage 2, where this game draws a ton of its core game play from, did not use them, and we did just fine. Trial and error was enough to figure out what to do, and what not to do. The game referenced doesn't matter in this point. The point is you can't assume all thr mechanics in a game will follow real like mechanics... especially when talking about a class that throws fireballs!!! You may disagree with having combat trackers in a game, but there are still pros/cons either way and one pro is that a combat tracker can eliminate the risk of false assumptions like this. Playing the game with trial and error can do the same. Just takes a little bit longer, but sooner or later players will figure it out. Maybe... but would it happen fast enough to prevent the guild from breaking up? People only have so much patience for this trial and error. What if we subjectivity decided to sit the hunters first because someone heard a rumor they were not good? Data is empowering and improves the experience! Ignorance is not bliss!
Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics... or life for that mater. Fighting Fire with Fire in a MMO is not a thing usually. DPS meters should not be needed for common sense, and sounds like your guild leader might have been ignorant in that fact. Cannot hate the person, maybe they just did not know or care. Either way... ignorance in common MMO mechanics is a common thing, and usually gets figured out quickly without a DPS meter. In the end, I get it... they help fine tune builds or find builds that out perform other builds. But the last thing you want is a game with 64 classes that only utilizes 12 of them, at least I do. Lyrics from a band I love say this.. "Don’t let their school make a fool of you. Because the teachers may be fools too". We had a hunch it was suboptimal, but not right away. We had no idea how bad it was without combat trackers. Also, this is not necessarily common sense. Blizzard moved away from this design due to the inherent imbalances it introduced to certain class specs. (They chose to reduce immersion in order to better balance gameplay). For example, when they released Firelands (which ironically enough has the same end boss as the first raid coming back) there was no reduced damage for fire damage. I'm not saying Blizzards decision to do this was right or wrong, but it was in alignment with the vision of their game and it shows you cannot always make assumptions like this. Developers will choose to sacrifice immersion/realism if it aligns better to the vision if their game. I guess this is just more justification for needing combat trackers right? Nope lol... Combat trackers based on WoW's use of it does not justify it in any other game. Lineage 2, where this game draws a ton of its core game play from, did not use them, and we did just fine. Trial and error was enough to figure out what to do, and what not to do. The game referenced doesn't matter in this point. The point is you can't assume all thr mechanics in a game will follow real like mechanics... especially when talking about a class that throws fireballs!!! You may disagree with having combat trackers in a game, but there are still pros/cons either way and one pro is that a combat tracker can eliminate the risk of false assumptions like this. Playing the game with trial and error can do the same. Just takes a little bit longer, but sooner or later players will figure it out. I'm not sure the argument of players having access to objective data vs players just guessing what is going on is an argument you want to get in to - as that is where this line of thinking leads.
Recluse74 wrote: » Seriously? I don't want to get into that argument? What has been going on this entire thread? I am here... and I am arguing my point. The sad part is, I agree with DPS meters, I just disagree with you on how they should be used. Not sure I want to get into that argument? pffft....
Blackhearted wrote: » Why do u expect every wow raider to be looking for the same experience as they had in wow? Whats the point of trying other games if theyre clones? What about dps meters and immersion? Do u honestly feel like u were fighting a boss if after every fight u check some exact parses? How can we take u seriously when u act like u knew the opinions of all raiders?
Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Seriously? I don't want to get into that argument? What has been going on this entire thread? I am here... and I am arguing my point. The sad part is, I agree with DPS meters, I just disagree with you on how they should be used. Not sure I want to get into that argument? pffft.... This thread has not really been about whether players should or should not have access to objective data, which is essentially what the point of arguing trial and error is about. You don't want to get in to that as an argument because it is one I've already been in maybe 8 - 10 times on these forums, and there really is no valid reason to argue for not allowing easy access to data for players. Just in case you want to get in to the argument, I'll basically give you then end question you need to answer. Players have preferences of content type. When people try out a game, they are trying out the aspect of that game they enjoy. They are not looking at that aspect of that game in a vacuum, they are comparing that aspect of that game to that aspect of other games they have played. People that would consider raiding in Ashes are people that would raid in WoW, or in EQ2, or in Rift. If raiding in Ashes is to be successful as a content type, it needs to appeal to these people. These people consider combat trackers as an essential tool, and consider access to objective data as a basic requirement of raiding. These people are not interested in a raiding paradigm that is based on guessing - why would they be? The notion that these people should just "give it a go" doesn't hold any weight, because they have that aspect of MMO's that they can play in other games. So, with all of this taken in to account, why should Intrepid even bother adding raid content without easy access to objective data to Ashes?
Recluse74 wrote: » If using a DPS meter gives you an advantage over people who do not use them, then 100% they should not be allowed
Blackhearted wrote: » Are u talking of immersion as u entering flow or as immersing into the games world? I personally would still be playing wow if I still enjoyed keeping track of my exact dps. For me playing BDO and getting feedback in other ways killed the enjoyment that the numbers used to offer. Nowadays using combat trackers feels like Im in gameworld and when I choose to I can get collection of mathematical data on how I did last fight from...somewhere? I expect the feedback from my team in ashes to be more of "did u see that cc on the runaway add?" and so on. I want this game to be a blast of fresh air that blows away the musty corrupt mmo scene we are used to..
Intrepid has decided on this issue and said they do not want them in game ... argument ends.
Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » If using a DPS meter gives you an advantage over people who do not use them, then 100% they should not be allowed That isn't an argument for not having them, it is an argument for building them in to the game client. Intrepid has decided on this issue and said they do not want them in game ... argument ends. There is one small issue with this as a point. I dont need Intrepids permission to use a combat tracker. I will use one, and that is the end of that particular debate. Intrepid will only know I am using one due to me telling them I will use one. The question is, if I am using one, should others have access to it or not. What is more fair, a select group of people having access to a combat tracker, or everyone having equal access - these are the only two possibilities at play here.
Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » If using a DPS meter gives you an advantage over people who do not use them, then 100% they should not be allowed That isn't an argument for not having them, it is an argument for building them in to the game client. Intrepid has decided on this issue and said they do not want them in game ... argument ends. There is one small issue with this as a point. I dont need Intrepids permission to use a combat tracker. I will use one, and that is the end of that particular debate. Intrepid will only know I am using one due to me telling them I will use one. The question is, if I am using one, should others have access to it or not. What is more fair, a select group of people having access to a combat tracker, or everyone having equal access - these are the only two possibilities at play here. You just do not listen to anyone at all... even yourself at times. You see only in black and white, and the shades of gray elude you to a drastic measure. Your first comment on it being an argument that it should be built into the game, is like saying Wallhacks should be built into CoD because it is empirical data that you need to know where the other players are at all times to succeed... And that you will use one whether it was built into the game or not. Get on with yourself buddy... you are a lost cause, and I feel bad for anyone that plays in your guild. Not because you use a DPS meter, but because you refuse to listen to anyone with a different point of view.
Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » If using a DPS meter gives you an advantage over people who do not use them, then 100% they should not be allowed That isn't an argument for not having them, it is an argument for building them in to the game client. Intrepid has decided on this issue and said they do not want them in game ... argument ends. There is one small issue with this as a point. I dont need Intrepids permission to use a combat tracker. I will use one, and that is the end of that particular debate. Intrepid will only know I am using one due to me telling them I will use one. The question is, if I am using one, should others have access to it or not. What is more fair, a select group of people having access to a combat tracker, or everyone having equal access - these are the only two possibilities at play here. You just do not listen to anyone at all... even yourself at times. You see only in black and white, and the shades of gray elude you to a drastic measure. Your first comment on it being an argument that it should be built into the game, is like saying Wallhacks should be built into CoD because it is empirical data that you need to know where the other players are at all times to succeed... And that you will use one whether it was built into the game or not. Get on with yourself buddy... you are a lost cause, and I feel bad for anyone that plays in your guild. Not because you use a DPS meter, but because you refuse to listen to anyone with a different point of view. Just to be sure we are clear here, you are equating wall hacks in an FPS game with rearranging data we already have in to a spreadsheet, right? I mean, I assume you know Steven has confirmed that combat logs will be a thing, and I assume you know that all a combat tracker does is take a combat log and display it better - and yet this equates to wall hacking in your mind? That is an interesting take on things, honestly.
Saedu wrote: » Noaani, IS could remove combat logs if they really wanted to stop combat trackers....
Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » If using a DPS meter gives you an advantage over people who do not use them, then 100% they should not be allowed That isn't an argument for not having them, it is an argument for building them in to the game client. Intrepid has decided on this issue and said they do not want them in game ... argument ends. There is one small issue with this as a point. I dont need Intrepids permission to use a combat tracker. I will use one, and that is the end of that particular debate. Intrepid will only know I am using one due to me telling them I will use one. The question is, if I am using one, should others have access to it or not. What is more fair, a select group of people having access to a combat tracker, or everyone having equal access - these are the only two possibilities at play here. You just do not listen to anyone at all... even yourself at times. You see only in black and white, and the shades of gray elude you to a drastic measure. Your first comment on it being an argument that it should be built into the game, is like saying Wallhacks should be built into CoD because it is empirical data that you need to know where the other players are at all times to succeed... And that you will use one whether it was built into the game or not. Get on with yourself buddy... you are a lost cause, and I feel bad for anyone that plays in your guild. Not because you use a DPS meter, but because you refuse to listen to anyone with a different point of view. Just to be sure we are clear here, you are equating wall hacks in an FPS game with rearranging data we already have in to a spreadsheet, right? I mean, I assume you know Steven has confirmed that combat logs will be a thing, and I assume you know that all a combat tracker does is take a combat log and display it better - and yet this equates to wall hacking in your mind? That is an interesting take on things, honestly. No, it is not a direct comparison, not even close.
Noaani wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Noaani, IS could remove combat logs if they really wanted to stop combat trackers.... They could try, but there are other ways of getting the data. At the end of the day, no computer system is 100% secure and the best Intrepid can do if they want to actively try to prevent combat trackers is to play a constant (and expensive) game of cat and mouse with those of us that do want to use them.
Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » If using a DPS meter gives you an advantage over people who do not use them, then 100% they should not be allowed That isn't an argument for not having them, it is an argument for building them in to the game client. Intrepid has decided on this issue and said they do not want them in game ... argument ends. There is one small issue with this as a point. I dont need Intrepids permission to use a combat tracker. I will use one, and that is the end of that particular debate. Intrepid will only know I am using one due to me telling them I will use one. The question is, if I am using one, should others have access to it or not. What is more fair, a select group of people having access to a combat tracker, or everyone having equal access - these are the only two possibilities at play here. You just do not listen to anyone at all... even yourself at times. You see only in black and white, and the shades of gray elude you to a drastic measure. Your first comment on it being an argument that it should be built into the game, is like saying Wallhacks should be built into CoD because it is empirical data that you need to know where the other players are at all times to succeed... And that you will use one whether it was built into the game or not. Get on with yourself buddy... you are a lost cause, and I feel bad for anyone that plays in your guild. Not because you use a DPS meter, but because you refuse to listen to anyone with a different point of view. Just to be sure we are clear here, you are equating wall hacks in an FPS game with rearranging data we already have in to a spreadsheet, right? I mean, I assume you know Steven has confirmed that combat logs will be a thing, and I assume you know that all a combat tracker does is take a combat log and display it better - and yet this equates to wall hacking in your mind? That is an interesting take on things, honestly. No, it is not a direct comparison, not even close. Then why make it? At least with the global warming analogy there was a point in that one person's perspective doesn't hold true for the larger picture. Your 'analogy' there has no connecting parameters.
Recluse74 wrote: » So you are saying you would basically cheat if it was not allowed at all .. This sums up everything.
