Friendly rivalry and spotting slackers with no dps/hps meters?

Honestly I'm excited to play an MMO that isn't going to be cluttered up with a million addons and just have everything you need built in.

That said something that worries me as a guild leader is friendly competition, for example in wow I have 2 hunters in my guild who play the same class and spec and are constantly competing with each other for top dps/performance and they love to bounce ideas off each other for rotation/talents/stat prio/etc. Without any way to measure yourself in Ashes how can they continue their friendly rivalry?

I'm also worried about how to spot and deal with slackers in my guild in Ashes since people tend to take the path of least resistance, if I have a healer that throws up a hot on the tanks and then alt tabs to watch anime during a boss fight how would I as GM know unless I'm watching everyone casting? (impossible in large group sizes). If we're wiping because of no healing going out how can I identify its the lazy healer and not slap the blame on the entire heal team? (which would suck for everyone who is really trying).

I propose a very simplified "meter" that only the group lead is able to see that just provides a breakdown of either active time casting abilities/hitting the mobs/moving around or the ability to see what spell and how often the person is pressing it just to be able to see everyone is participating or at least trying. That or allow only the group lead to see dps/hps meters. It doesn't help with the friendly competition aspect but idk what would. I'd honestly really love the option to "opt in" for dps/hps meters in specific content like only the gm/group in lead in large scale content, or anyone in small groups of 2-3, or perhaps have some ingame target dummies that display dps/hps and you can only see it there.

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Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

So you are saying you would basically cheat if it was not allowed at all .. This sums up everything.

I am saying that if every other MMO has a combat tracker and they are commonly used in top end PvE content, people running top end content PvE content in Ashes will run combat trackers.

I take my moral compass with me between games. It doesn't change just because of the rules of one game vs another.

One example of this is the notion of one button for one action. The way GW2 combat is set up, you have more than one action per key press, and as such I dont play the game. It may not be against that games rules (it cant be, it is built in to the game), but it is against mine.

Combat tracker usage is not against my rules. If a game says they dont want them, I dont really care.

I dont care anymore... They will not be in game officially at launch as of right now. I know you will use one and I do not care that you will. You are literally now just arguing for argument sake. Your argument has gotten to the point of, "I am taking my ball and going home" type of maturity. If DPS meters make it into the game officially at launch, or years down the road.. I still wont care. They do not bother me personally, because I can play with or without them. Im just over talking to you as a whole.. even your posts I agree with annoy me now lol.

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

Your argument has gotten to the point of, "I am taking my ball and going home" type of maturity.

I would argue that the people saying " I dont like combat trackers so you shouldn't be able to use them" are displaying this level of maturity.

My point is more akin to "this is what I'm doing, I personally think it would be best if everyone that wanted to do that could, but honestly, the rest of you can do what ever you want".

Because at the end of the day, that is my point. I will be using a combat tracker, and I think the game would be better off if everyone that wanted to was able to use one as well. But honestly, the rest of you can do what ever you want.

Saedu

Hmmm... @Noaani, you've basically said you would cheat if IS blocks combat trackers.

If it were 100% technically impossible to use them, would you still play this game or is this a deal breaker for you?

I guess technically all they would have to do is put it against the rules in the ToS and then ban anyone caught doing jt. They don't have to technically block it.

I'm all for having combat trackers, but I wouldn't cheat to have them...

Noaani

Saedu wrote: »

I'm all for having combat trackers, but I wouldn't cheat to have them...

Intrepid are not likely to outright say that we can't use them, all they will say is what they have said - they aren't supported.

If they attempt to ban them, that means they then need to work at keeping them out of the game - you can't implement a rule if you are not planning on enforcing it.

This will be both costly and time consuming for Intrepid, and all up just not worth it.

So, the notion of whether I would use a combat tracker if they made a rule against using them is not something worth discussing.

akabear

The plot thickens...the non-pay to win game becomes pay to win..

Noaani

akabear wrote: »

The plot thickens...the non-pay to win game becomes pay to win..

I guess that could be one way of looking at it, but no more so than how buying a better computer - or a better internet connection - may also give you an edge.

Saedu

Noaani wrote: »

Saedu wrote: »

I'm all for having combat trackers, but I wouldn't cheat to have them...

So, the notion of whether I would use a combat tracker if they made a rule against using them is not something worth discussing.

They are willing to invest in GMs to help with the integrity of the game elsewhere and that's costly. By dodging the question like this you are effectively admitting your would cheat...

Saedu

akabear wrote: »

The plot thickens...the non-pay to win game becomes pay to win..

In my experience addons are free. There might be an option to donate to support thr addon or the site might have ads to support it.

I haven't used ACT before though so maybe it's different. I would also consider it very different than buying a better PC if IS is explicitly stating there are to be no addons for the game.

Dygz

Recluse74 wrote: »

I dont care anymore... They will not be in game officially at launch as of right now. I know you will use one and I do not care that you will. You are literally now just arguing for argument sake. Your argument has gotten to the point of, "I am taking my ball and going home" type of maturity. If DPS meters make it into the game officially at launch, or years down the road.. I still wont care. They do not bother me personally, because I can play with or without them. Im just over talking to you as a whole.. even your posts I agree with annoy me now lol.

Noanni just doesn't want to get into the argument because everyone always disagrees with Noanni whenever this topic comes up.

Noaani

Saedu wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Saedu wrote: »

I'm all for having combat trackers, but I wouldn't cheat to have them...

So, the notion of whether I would use a combat tracker if they made a rule against using them is not something worth discussing.

They are willing to invest in GMs to help with the integrity of the game elsewhere and that's costly. By dodging the question like this you are effectively admitting your would cheat...

Finding and banning gold sellers is something that is fairly easy in comparison to finding someone using a combat tracker. Activities like that, by their very nature, leave traces of their presence for Intrepid to find.

As an example of how hard it will be - one of the two I have followed the development of does not run on the same computer as the game client. Based on that alone, Intrepid have no actual way of finding people that are using it at all, ever.

This version was designed (and mostly built) before it became known that the game would have a combat log, so even if that is removed, this tracker will work.

The other tracker is a little more complex than that.

This is why the question isn't worth answering. Intrepid cant make rules for me about what I do on a computer that isn't running their software at all.

rikardp98

It's funny to me that people that have absolutely no idea how a combat tracker works and what it's used for arguing against it xD

No one should or will use combat tracker during a fight since it will take away to much focus from the fight itself.

People that care only about dps meters and shit on other players are just shit players themselves.

Yes, combat tracker will be useful during hard boss encounters, but experience is much better than theoretical analysis. The only reason people analys a fight afterwards is to get a somewhat better understanding of that fight and find some odd behaviors. One will also be able to spot slackers, these slackers won't get instantly kick but they will probably get a warning.

Now let's get to how it all works.

The game sends your computer a lot of information, information about your party members and everything around you. You then send information to the server and indirectly to everyone else. All the information that the server sends to you (and you to the server) is saved to a text file. Some games may only have a temporary combat text file while others may save everything. In world of warcraft classic you can enable a setting so every combat encounter in a dungeon or raid is saved forever.
What a combat tracker does is take that combat text file, which have everything listed down to the millisecond, and make it much much easier to read. In world of warcraft one can even track the position of the boss and the players to see how everyone moved and positioned themselves.

Will combat tracker give people that use it an advantage, yes but also no. It will give people at the very very top an advantage if they understand the fight and how to probably use the information given by the combat tracker. But for 90+% of player the combat tracker will just be numbers and timestamps which won't give them much useful information.

So people that don't care about the combat tracker will not be affected by others that use it. Meaning, if we have a combat tracker the top end will be happy AND everyone else will also be happy since they won't care or won't be affected by it .

But what about the toxic players?!?!?!
Just don't care about them, if people start to complain about your dps/hps then just leave and try and find other players to play with. I promise you that there will be players and guilds that will fit your play style if you take the time and try and find them. Please try and find a guild, solo playing can be fun but mmos are so much better and fun if you find a nice group of people to play with.

rikardp98

Now I'm not a game developer so the combat tracker may work completely different in some games, but that is how it kind of works in wow

Dygz

rikardp98 wrote: »

Yes, combat tracker will be useful during hard boss encounters, but experience is much better than theoretical analysis. The only reason people analys a fight afterwards is to get a somewhat better understanding of that fight and find some odd behaviors. One will also be able to spot slackers, these slackers won't get instantly kick but they will probably get a warning.

And you hit the nail on the head.
The primary purpose of combat trackers is to spot "slackers".
Which is what people who hate combat trackers hate.
"Slacking" is not even a possible concept for anyone when I play RPGs. It's not a thing.
I dunno how people can "slack" while PLAYING.
Just as you can't steal where there is no ownership.

Recluse74

Dygz wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

Yes, combat tracker will be useful during hard boss encounters, but experience is much better than theoretical analysis. The only reason people analys a fight afterwards is to get a somewhat better understanding of that fight and find some odd behaviors. One will also be able to spot slackers, these slackers won't get instantly kick but they will probably get a warning.

And you hit the nail on the head.
The primary purpose of combat trackers is to spot "slackers".
Which is what people who hate combat trackers hate.
"Slacking" is not even a possible concept for anyone when I play RPGs. It's not a thing.
I dunno how people can "slack" while PLAYING.
Just as you can't steal where there is no ownership.

We caught slackers in L2 by just paying attention to the people in our party... See a ranger on auto attack mode in the back of the room.. see a gladiator swinging his arms with no skill animations for more than 10 seconds... Tank needing constant heals because he wont use buffs or self heals... seeing a tank in the lower quarter of his health bar for more than 20 seconds.

We also had Soul Shot, which was 100% needed to buff your DPS, and after every hit on the mob, it woudl reactivate on your weapon (bright glow for those who do not know)... some people would toggle off their soul shot to try and save money.. All catchable if you just paid attention. And we would call them out right then and there. Once you play a game long enough, you kind of get the TTK ingrained in your head when in popular leveling places, and you know when something seems off. If it seems off.. start watching.

Now, different story when it comes to a 40 man, unless you just assign certain people in the raid to watch over certain classes to make sure they dont go to sleep. 40 man raid.. get 8 people to watch over a group of 5 each... done. Announce it before you start... and people not wanting to get called out will play the right way.

Dygz

Slackers in RPGs aren't really a thing - other than a toxic fantasy.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Slackers in RPGs aren't really a thing - other than a toxic fantasy.

If that RPG sets a minimum performance level for specific content, anyone opting in to that specific content and not performing at that level is slacking.

Rather than saying "your PLAYING, you cant be slacking", you should be saying "if you cant perform to this level, dont opt in to content that asks that of you".

And dont even try and say you should be able to do all content, not all content in a game is for all players, if you are not willing to meet the needs of the content, the content t is not for you.

Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Slackers in RPGs aren't really a thing - other than a toxic fantasy.

And dont even try and say you should be able to do all content, not all content in a game is for all players, if you are not willing to meet the needs of the content, the content t is not for you.

Sorta... I guess.

I doubt the Devs made a raid boss and said to themselves "If they do not have the exact 40 man raid team we designed this for, with the exact classes and weapons needed... not to mention skill rotations... there is no way they will ever beat it", or any boss for that matter. With the exception of using the Holy Trinity.. it should be down to teamwork and communication..

As long as you have capable gear, and the skill to play your class, you should be able to participate in all content. Skill being the determining factor, not #'s.

But in the end, I do know that all players will not have the ability to play all content. The biggest downfall should be the gear and skill though. IMO that is.

Vhaeyne

Dygz wrote: »

Slackers in RPGs aren't really a thing - other than a toxic fantasy.

People totally try to slack off, and get pulled through content with the minimum amount of effort.
The problem is that some content requires everyone to bring a standard of skill to complete. When people are unwilling to put effort into achieving that standard of skill, and show up to the content hopeful that everyone around them will preform well enough to allow them not put work into improving as a player. Then the people that do this in my opinion are slackers and do not deserve a spot on in a group with people who are putting in real effort and bringing that standard of skill to the content.

It is not about being toxic, it is about having reasonable expectations and being able to find people who can live up to those expectations. The challenge is letting someone know they are not living up to the expectation their role brings to the group without sounding toxic. I don't think vary many people have mastered that skill.

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

As long as you have capable gear, and the skill to play your class, you should be able to participate in all content. Skill being the determining factor, not #'s.

On a raid - where players that are able to do multiple things are not that valuable - your skill actually can be expressed as a numerical value.

Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

As long as you have capable gear, and the skill to play your class, you should be able to participate in all content. Skill being the determining factor, not #'s.

On a raid - where players that are able to do multiple things are not that valuable - your skill actually can be expressed as a numerical value.

You should make your own MMO... call it Accountants of the Mist! you could crunch numbers all day in that game.... drool......... Your first expansion could be called the The Audits of Winter!.. OMG you would have a hit on your hands. Everyone at H&R Block would definitely jump in on this... and you know how many H&R blocks there are... so awesome.

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