Friendly rivalry and spotting slackers with no dps/hps meters?

Honestly I'm excited to play an MMO that isn't going to be cluttered up with a million addons and just have everything you need built in.

That said something that worries me as a guild leader is friendly competition, for example in wow I have 2 hunters in my guild who play the same class and spec and are constantly competing with each other for top dps/performance and they love to bounce ideas off each other for rotation/talents/stat prio/etc. Without any way to measure yourself in Ashes how can they continue their friendly rivalry?

I'm also worried about how to spot and deal with slackers in my guild in Ashes since people tend to take the path of least resistance, if I have a healer that throws up a hot on the tanks and then alt tabs to watch anime during a boss fight how would I as GM know unless I'm watching everyone casting? (impossible in large group sizes). If we're wiping because of no healing going out how can I identify its the lazy healer and not slap the blame on the entire heal team? (which would suck for everyone who is really trying).

I propose a very simplified "meter" that only the group lead is able to see that just provides a breakdown of either active time casting abilities/hitting the mobs/moving around or the ability to see what spell and how often the person is pressing it just to be able to see everyone is participating or at least trying. That or allow only the group lead to see dps/hps meters. It doesn't help with the friendly competition aspect but idk what would. I'd honestly really love the option to "opt in" for dps/hps meters in specific content like only the gm/group in lead in large scale content, or anyone in small groups of 2-3, or perhaps have some ingame target dummies that display dps/hps and you can only see it there.

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Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

Maybe they just want people to play the game vanilla style for a while before giving players the tools tweak their characters.

Steven is well aware that the community (or at least portions of it) will have a combat tracker functioning before the game goes live.

Probably before the game goes in to beta.

It is a conversation we have already had, that he participated in to a degree.

It is just one more of those aspects of the games development that make no sense. They claim they do not like how combat trackers are used in other games, and so they literally do exactly the same as those other games in relation to combat trackers - despite suggestions on how they could effectively prevent the things they didn't like.

Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

Maybe they just want people to play the game vanilla style for a while before giving players the tools tweak their characters.

Steven is well aware that the community (or at least portions of it) will have a combat tracker functioning before the game goes live.

Probably before the game goes in to beta.

It is a conversation we have already had, that he participated in to a degree.

It is just one more of those aspects of the games development that make no sense. They claim they do not like how combat trackers are used in other games, and so they literally do exactly the same as those other games in relation to combat trackers - despite suggestions on how they could effectively prevent the things they didn't like.

Do you think this game will fail if it does not have one?

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

Maybe they just want people to play the game vanilla style for a while before giving players the tools tweak their characters.

Steven is well aware that the community (or at least portions of it) will have a combat tracker functioning before the game goes live.

Probably before the game goes in to beta.

It is a conversation we have already had, that he participated in to a degree.

It is just one more of those aspects of the games development that make no sense. They claim they do not like how combat trackers are used in other games, and so they literally do exactly the same as those other games in relation to combat trackers - despite suggestions on how they could effectively prevent the things they didn't like.

Do you think this game will fail if it does not have one?

My opinion on this doesn't matter.

As to whether this would happen or not, we will never know.

What I will say though, my opinion of an MMO failing is it not having any live official servers. This means that Archeage has not failed, but SWG has. It means Bless hasn't failed, but Wildstar has.

Failure and success are not particularly good metrics for players to talk about.

akabear

Wiki is always an interesting read

Addons/mods
My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed.[112] – Steven Sharif

Addons and DPS meters will not be allowed.[112][4]

The developers don't want addons/mods to be necessary to experience the game.[113]
The design of the game API is still under consideration.[114]
There will be integrations available for streaming services such as Twitch and a few other services, but it's not something that will be exposed through an API just yet.[115]
The developers believe that parsers (DPS meters) can have negative effects.[116][4]
The idea is to make a one-stop-shop from the company when it comes to in-game systems... We don't really want to have addons in my opinion.[113] – Steven Sharif

There will be leader boards.[117]

Combat logs
There are combat logs in Ashes of Creation.[118]

We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves. The goal is to mitigate and make the practice less prevalent through the ease that DPS meters provide. Also to place actionable enforcement for players who attempt to circumvent the decision by use of 3rd party programs, for which we will be monitoring.[119] – Steven Sharif

Vhaeyne

@akabear yeah, it says all of that about addons...

...and Noaani be like: "Come and take them.".

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

akabear yeah, it says all of that about addons...

...and Noaani be like: "Come and take them.".

Yeah, basically.

Interestingly, his use of the term "third party" is incorrect there, as all that is needed to circumvent that is for me to compile the program myself. If I do that, the program is then technically a second party program.

Edit to add; his point here is also reliant on combat trackers running on the same computer as the game client, which no one that I am following in terms of combat trackers for Ashes is planning on doing.

The only way Intrepid will know of combat tracker use is if people tell them about it - that is no way to enforce a strict rule.

Dygz

rikardp98 wrote: »

YES!! for the top 1% of players that want to be the best of the best, not for random groups, rp-players or the "normal" type player.
If you are not a hardcore top end player, then you will not even notice the combat tracker

That has not been my experience.
I'm not a hardcore top end player and I have been negatively impacted by combat trackers way too often.
In my experience, it's typical of group leaders to check the combat tracker at the end of dungeon runs, complain to someone about low dps and kick them.

Hoozierpopz

im going to be CCing yall to death anyways. Give em a dps meter Steven. They still wont win against this Bounty Hunter. ha ha ha

NO ADD ONS

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

YES!! for the top 1% of players that want to be the best of the best, not for random groups, rp-players or the "normal" type player.
If you are not a hardcore top end player, then you will not even notice the combat tracker

That has not been my experience.
I'm not a hardcore top end player and I have been negatively impacted by combat trackers way too often.
In my experience, it's typical of group leaders to check the combat tracker at the end of dungeon runs, complain to someone about low dps and kick them.

Wait, are you complaining that other people care about your poor performance when it affects them?

Are you suggesting they should put up with your poor performance, even when it affects them?

rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

YES!! for the top 1% of players that want to be the best of the best, not for random groups, rp-players or the "normal" type player.
If you are not a hardcore top end player, then you will not even notice the combat tracker

That has not been my experience.
I'm not a hardcore top end player and I have been negatively impacted by combat trackers way too often.
In my experience, it's typical of group leaders to check the combat tracker at the end of dungeon runs, complain to someone about low dps and kick them.

then my question to you is, how did you find this group and group leader that cares about the dps meters while you don't?

if you do not care about it you can always find like minded people to play with.

mmorpg are for all people and people will play a mmorpg on different levels, you need to choose are you want to exist and play with people on the same level.

AND, combat trackers are not inherently toxic. In my current guild on wow classic we track every raid every week. However, we just look over it for fun and see what the general party can do better, we never look at peoples dps and how they preform because we are a casual guild that play for fun, meaning that we have no requirements on high dps parses or something like that.

I will say it again, FIND PEOPLE YOU ENJOY PLAYING WITH. Join a guild, talk to people, add people you like, ignore people you don't. PUG's (pick up groups) are very very rarely fun..

Yuyukoyay

The problem is that people who do not care about performance do not actually exist. Pretty much all MMO players want to win whatever content they are playing, but it should not be required to make your decisions not matter by having a strong meta either. This game has 2 overlapping customization options. It's going to oppose having a meta beyond any other game that ever existed.

Which is why they are making it a focus to have at least 1 of every archetype being the meta party.

People want an MMO where they can build their character and do content potentially equally with the best players. Doesn't mean everyone will accomplish this, but that it will be a focus for it to be possible assuming you try hard enough.

I don't have fun with other games when using other people's guides. I go through it blind and make my own build. Whether that build is good or bad is irrelevant if the game has features to respec for a high cost. As such it is not possible for guilds to expect certain builds with a majority of this game's playerbase. They are going to have to settle for classes that can potentially do the roles they want.

The difference in design is that I want a game where the guilds yield to the individuals right to enjoy the game and not the reverse. Older MMOs do this to some extent. With the exception of some classes like bards being excluded due to being buff bots that this game is probably going to fix by requiring them to be in the party to get the buffs.

This is why a lot of MMOs die in the long run. They don't take into account personal enjoyment. Games die when the casuals get bored because they can't join a group. So a key goal in the game's success is to not let that happen again.

Saedu

Dygz wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

YES!! for the top 1% of players that want to be the best of the best, not for random groups, rp-players or the "normal" type player.
If you are not a hardcore top end player, then you will not even notice the combat tracker

That has not been my experience.
I'm not a hardcore top end player and I have been negatively impacted by combat trackers way too often.
In my experience, it's typical of group leaders to check the combat tracker at the end of dungeon runs, complain to someone about low dps and kick them.

You finished the dungeon and it sounds like you got carried... are you expecting then to carry you more? Why?

Saedu

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

akabear yeah, it says all of that about addons...

...and Noaani be like: "Come and take them.".

Yeah, basically.

Interestingly, his use of the term "third party" is incorrect there, as all that is needed to circumvent that is for me to compile the program myself. If I do that, the program is then technically a second party program.

Edit to add; his point here is also reliant on combat trackers running on the same computer as the game client, which no one that I am following in terms of combat trackers for Ashes is planning on doing.

The only way Intrepid will know of combat tracker use is if people tell them about it - that is no way to enforce a strict rule.

Spirit of the law > letter of the law. Write the tracker yourself and you are probably just as likely to get banned.

I want combat trackers too, but I don't make the game rules and I don't look for exploits in them... knowingly exploiting like you are proposing will probably get you banned.

Let's hope IS has a change of heart on their position on combat trackers...

Noaani

Saedu wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

akabear yeah, it says all of that about addons...

...and Noaani be like: "Come and take them.".

Yeah, basically.

Interestingly, his use of the term "third party" is incorrect there, as all that is needed to circumvent that is for me to compile the program myself. If I do that, the program is then technically a second party program.

Edit to add; his point here is also reliant on combat trackers running on the same computer as the game client, which no one that I am following in terms of combat trackers for Ashes is planning on doing.

The only way Intrepid will know of combat tracker use is if people tell them about it - that is no way to enforce a strict rule.

Spirit of the law > letter of the law. Write the tracker yourself and you are probably just as likely to get banned.

Probably, but I was more pointing out why that particular portion of the wiki (that was taken from these forums) should not necessarily be picked to pieces under the assumption that it is 100% accurate.

My main point is that Intrepid won't be able to detect a combat tracker being used.

With my past comments on combat trackers - basically stating outright that I will be using one by the time the game is in beta at the latest - I have no doubt at all that Intrepid will be looking very, very closely at me to find combat tracker use. They won't find it, yet as soon as I have it I will send Steven a screenshot of a combat tracker readout from the game.

I agree with you in the hope that Intrepid change their position on combat trackers - but not for my sake as much as the sake of everyone else in the game, so that we can all be on an equal footing.

Again, I stated that I *will* use a combat tracker in Ashes before Intrepid had decided on a position on them. My position was clear before theirs was, so even if we didn't take in to consideration the industry norm of them being used, I have no moral objections to me sticking to my word.

It isn't my fault if the rules changed around what I said I was going to do.

You can disagree with that if you like, I am not bothered either way. I am not here to try and guide anyone elses moral compass, I am simply stating my own - and it is one that I am comfortable with.

Dygz

Noaani wrote: »

Wait, are you complaining that other people care about your poor performance when it affects them?
Are you suggesting they should put up with your poor performance, even when it affects them?

No. I'm saying that what constitutes "poor performance" is subjective.
And too many people rely on combat trackers and DPS meters as the only measures to determine what "poor performance" means. Probably more precisely as quick and easy measures to determine what poor performance means.

"Your performance is poor because it does not conform with the cookie-cutter assessment of this combat tracker."

Dygz

Saedu wrote: »

You finished the dungeon and it sounds like you got carried... are you expecting them to carry you more? Why?

Haha. Nope. Actually, I'm typically the one carrying others in my groups.
The groups I repeatedly run with don't care about everyone being uber-efficient in combat. There are typically at least a couple players considerably less proficient at combat than I am .

Dygz

rikardp98 wrote: »

then my question to you is, how did you find this group and group leader that cares about the dps meters while you don't?

Sometimes pugs. Sometimes twitch groups.
It's not hard to find. It's fairly typical.

if you do not care about it you can always find like minded people to play with.

Yep. And that should be even easier in Ashes since a combat tracker is not planned for this game.

mmorpg are for all people and people will play a mmorpg on different levels, you need to choose are you want to exist and play with people on the same level.

I think I agree with the first half of that sentence and then I have no clue what you were trying to convey in the second half of the sentence.

AND, combat trackers are not inherently toxic. In my current guild on wow classic we track every raid every week. However, we just look over it for fun and see what the general party can do better, we never look at peoples dps and how they preform because we are a casual guild that play for fun, meaning that we have no requirements on high dps parses or something like that.

I disagree. By inherently toxic, I mean for the overall community of any MMORPG; not inherently toxic for every group.

I will say it again, FIND PEOPLE YOU ENJOY PLAYING WITH. Join a guild, talk to people, add people you like, ignore people you don't. PUG's (pick up groups) are very very rarely fun..

I'll say it again:
I will find people I enjoy playing with. And it's likely I will find people I enjoy grouping with.
There will also be PUGs during moments when those people I normally play with are not online.
Pretty much the only times PUGs are not fun is when people rely on combat trackers and when the leader just wants to clear everything as uber-efficiently as possible.
Thankfully, the Ashes devs won't be (actively) supporting combat trackers, according to the current game design, so, Ashes PUGs should be even more fun than MMORPGs that implement combat trackers.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Wait, are you complaining that other people care about your poor performance when it affects them?
Are you suggesting they should put up with your poor performance, even when it affects them?

No. I'm saying that what constitutes "poor performance" is subjective.

No it isn't, we have objective data to determine if your performance is poor or not.

Combat in almost all games requires three things. Minimizing the damage the enemy does, healing what damage it does do, and dealing damage to it until it stops dealing damage to us.

All of them show up in a combat tracker, and nothing else in combat matters.

If you are in a group as the tank, your performance can be accurately assessed based on how much damage the target does - both to you and to other people. If you are a healer, your performance can be measured based on how quickly after receiving damage that damage is healed. If you are DPS, your performance can be measured based on - obviously - your DPS.

The only exception to any of this is if you are a bard - but if you are a bard your buffs all affect one of the above three factors, and are able to be measured individually.

So, literally everything can be measured via a combat tracker.

If you are not a tank, healer or bard, your value to the group is literally your damage output. Absolutely nothing else you do brings any value to the other people present, even if you think it does.

As such, it is absolutely, 100% appropriate at all times for your value to a group to be reduced down to the DPS you put out.

If that number is low - and it doesn't matter what the reason for this is - then your value to the group is low.

rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

then my question to you is, how did you find this group and group leader that cares about the dps meters while you don't?

Sometimes pugs. Sometimes twitch groups.
It's not hard to find. It's fairly typical.

if you do not care about it you can always find like minded people to play with.

Yep. And that should be even easier in Ashes since a combat tracker is not planned for this game.

mmorpg are for all people and people will play a mmorpg on different levels, you need to choose are you want to exist and play with people on the same level.

I think I agree with the first half of that sentence and then I have no clue what you were trying to convey in the second half of the sentence.

AND, combat trackers are not inherently toxic. In my current guild on wow classic we track every raid every week. However, we just look over it for fun and see what the general party can do better, we never look at peoples dps and how they preform because we are a casual guild that play for fun, meaning that we have no requirements on high dps parses or something like that.

I disagree. By inherently toxic, I mean for the overall community of any MMORPG; not inherently toxic for every group.

I will say it again, FIND PEOPLE YOU ENJOY PLAYING WITH. Join a guild, talk to people, add people you like, ignore people you don't. PUG's (pick up groups) are very very rarely fun..

I'll say it again:
I will find people I enjoy playing with. And it's likely I will find people I enjoy grouping with.
There will also be PUGs during moments when those people I normally play with are not online.
Pretty much the only times PUGs are not fun is when people rely on combat trackers and when the leader just wants to clear everything as uber-efficiently as possible.
Thankfully, the Ashes devs won't be (actively) supporting combat trackers, according to the current game design, so, Ashes PUGs should be even more fun than MMORPGs that implement combat trackers.

So the toxicity you have encountered is toxic pugs, not toxic "combat tracking person". Most pugs will still be toxic even though dps meters or combat trackers do not exist. Why is that? Well that's is the nature of most pugs, random people that don't know each other, people that don't really care = toxic environment. If a person randomly dies very boss then the pug will probably kick you (this will probably not happen that often since ashes won't have group finder) or hate on you for dieing all the time.

How is combat trackers toxic for the general mmorpg community when it will only affect people when they join a toxic group? (Here I do not count the top end raiders since you join knowing that you need to preform on a top end level)

It's not like dps meters will matter in most pvp encounters or the open world?

And what I meant by that very weird sentence of mine is, you need to find where you fint in, are you a hardcore player that optimize everything or are you more of an casual player. (Sorry for the confusion xD)

Recluse74

rikardp98 wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

then my question to you is, how did you find this group and group leader that cares about the dps meters while you don't?

Sometimes pugs. Sometimes twitch groups.
It's not hard to find. It's fairly typical.

if you do not care about it you can always find like minded people to play with.

Yep. And that should be even easier in Ashes since a combat tracker is not planned for this game.

mmorpg are for all people and people will play a mmorpg on different levels, you need to choose are you want to exist and play with people on the same level.

I think I agree with the first half of that sentence and then I have no clue what you were trying to convey in the second half of the sentence.

AND, combat trackers are not inherently toxic. In my current guild on wow classic we track every raid every week. However, we just look over it for fun and see what the general party can do better, we never look at peoples dps and how they preform because we are a casual guild that play for fun, meaning that we have no requirements on high dps parses or something like that.

I disagree. By inherently toxic, I mean for the overall community of any MMORPG; not inherently toxic for every group.

I will say it again, FIND PEOPLE YOU ENJOY PLAYING WITH. Join a guild, talk to people, add people you like, ignore people you don't. PUG's (pick up groups) are very very rarely fun..

I'll say it again:
I will find people I enjoy playing with. And it's likely I will find people I enjoy grouping with.
There will also be PUGs during moments when those people I normally play with are not online.
Pretty much the only times PUGs are not fun is when people rely on combat trackers and when the leader just wants to clear everything as uber-efficiently as possible.
Thankfully, the Ashes devs won't be (actively) supporting combat trackers, according to the current game design, so, Ashes PUGs should be even more fun than MMORPGs that implement combat trackers.

So the toxicity you have encountered is toxic pugs, not toxic "combat tracking person". Most pugs will still be toxic even though dps meters or combat trackers do not exist. Why is that? Well that's is the nature of most pugs, random people that don't know each other, people that don't really care = toxic environment. If a person randomly dies very boss then the pug will probably kick you (this will probably not happen that often since ashes won't have group finder) or hate on you for dieing all the time.

How is combat trackers toxic for the general mmorpg community when it will only affect people when they join a toxic group? (Here I do not count the top end raiders since you join knowing that you need to preform on a top end level)

It's not like dps meters will matter in most pvp encounters or the open world?

And what I meant by that very weird sentence of mine is, you need to find where you fint in, are you a hardcore player that optimize everything or are you more of an casual player. (Sorry for the confusion xD)

The issue is not hardcore guilds in any way shape or form. People who join those guilds, as you said, know what they are getting into. So if they get booted after a raid... sure they will be pissed, and it will cause drama, but such is the nature when you live in a cutthroat society.

I play a crapfest of a game called Outriders.
It has a combat tracker.
Combat tracker means nothing to me because I truly do not care about the game, the game is basically a time waster to me. I do not even look at it after a solo round.
My friend plays as well.
When we play together, I find myself looking at the tracker.. sense of pride maybe, or I just like know if I am better than he is.
Problem is...I am better... way better... When I put up 100 million damage... He puts up 60 million damage.
So why is it, that a casual player of a game, who does not really even like the game... still judges his friend's damage output, and usually tries to play solo, more than he does with his friend..

ANSWER: Human Nature.

And that is what will happen if a combat tracker is put in AoC... even the casual players will start to distance themselves from people who do not perform to a certain level. And that will create a toxic environment even if it is a passive aggressive one.

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