Resurrection while in combat: Yay or Nay?

I have seen a number of MMOs approach this differently.

Combat Rez can be wonderful to survive tough encounters and makes healers feel awesome for saving their party from a wipe.

On the other hand it can make PvP stupidly annoying and Raid content too easy.

What would you like to see? Resurrection while in combat Yay or Nay?

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Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

At the high end their should be no mistakes.

If there are no mistakes, you have high end players on mid range content.

High end content should not be possible to do without mistakes. If perfection is possible, the difficulty is simply not high enough.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

At the high end their should be no mistakes.

If there are no mistakes, you have high end players on mid range content.

High end content should not be possible to do without mistakes. If perfection is possible, the difficulty is simply not high enough.

Not true if it takes high end players days to weeks of prog to get to the point of perfection on a single encounter. What you have their is high end content that is extremely unforgiving. This just don't work with raid design that abuses randomization to create inconsistent difficulties across the same boss. To me relying on randomization is just bad irresponsible raid design. It means that a worst group might get loot while a better group doesn't because the dice gods will it.

It is hard to even talk to you about raiding because your prospective is so limited. You often mock WOW/FFXIV while it sounds like you have not spent any time in heroic/mythic/savage/ultimate raids. Right now as far as PvE is concerned these raid styles are the best you will find in MMORPGs, and you just write them off because you have some beef with WOW/FFXIV. They are not my favorite MMORPGs, but I will give them credit where they do things correctly.

If Ashes has any form of instanced high-end raiding(like you want), and they let us battle res with no enrage timer. The race to world first will be over less than half a day from the moment a group first enters the raid. Ashes PvE will never be taken seriously. It is just too easy for the modern raider. From every conversation I have had with you. I can only think that you are not a modern raider. You have a good understanding of the importance of parsing, and guild structure. I just don't think you have experienced a real raid in the last five years.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

It is hard to even talk to you about raiding because your prospective is so limited. You often mock WOW/FFXIV while it sounds like you have not spent any time in heroic/mythic/savage/ultimate raids.

I think you are misunderstanding me.

I am not mocking them as individual encounters. I have done a LOT of WoW encounters, almost all of them at mythic level (my brothers guild - I've raided with a number of them in other games, they often "find" a spot for me if I am visiting my brother). Some of them have been enjoyable.

What I am mocking, if anything, is the notion that there is only one way to do it - or the notion that any one mechanic should be present in every encounter in a games raid progression. Even WoW doesn't use enrage timers on every encounter.

Variety is the key to anything.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

It is hard to even talk to you about raiding because your prospective is so limited. You often mock WOW/FFXIV while it sounds like you have not spent any time in heroic/mythic/savage/ultimate raids.

I think you are misunderstanding me.

I am not mocking them as individual encounters. I have done a LOT of WoW encounters, almost all of them at mythic level (my brothers guild - I've raided with a number of them in other games, they often "find" a spot for me if I am visiting my brother). Some of them have been enjoyable.

What I am mocking, if anything, is the notion that there is only one way to do it - or the notion that any one mechanic should be present in every encounter in a games raid progression. Even WoW doesn't use enrage timers on every encounter.

Variety is the key to anything.

That is a relief to hear then. You do come off as someone who has only played EQ2 and AA. Which to me would be a very limited prospective.

If we get this rumored instanced high end raid scene in Ashes, I don't want it to be cheesed with people res spamming, and turtling with all defensive/resistance gear. Raids with unreasonable amounts of healers and so on. I mean with unlimited time. The best raid comp would be a mix of tanks and healers. The only reason to bring DPS would be for buffs if they had any worth while.

To me there just has to be some sort of soft or hard enrage built into every encounter.

daveywavey

maouw wrote: »

I'd like to play with the idea of necromancers having a different flavour resurrection.
Clerics resurrect you back to normal, but necromancy brings back your friends semi-alive with all their gear. Like they can quick cast your ashes and you return as either a decaying revenant (immune to non-holy magic, weak to physical damage) or an ethereal wraith (weak to magic, immune to physical damage) as long as they have the mana to sustain your form.

Then you pair them with a class that keeps everyone's mana topped up, and the necromancer basically sustains your whole party in undead form.

And if the necromancer dies, so too do their resurrected allies!

Let's also not forget the awesomeness that is Bard. Bard appears to be a support class, and so should probably have a resurrect skill, albeit weaker than the Cleric's.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

It is hard to even talk to you about raiding because your prospective is so limited. You often mock WOW/FFXIV while it sounds like you have not spent any time in heroic/mythic/savage/ultimate raids.

I think you are misunderstanding me.

I am not mocking them as individual encounters. I have done a LOT of WoW encounters, almost all of them at mythic level (my brothers guild - I've raided with a number of them in other games, they often "find" a spot for me if I am visiting my brother). Some of them have been enjoyable.

What I am mocking, if anything, is the notion that there is only one way to do it - or the notion that any one mechanic should be present in every encounter in a games raid progression. Even WoW doesn't use enrage timers on every encounter.

Variety is the key to anything.

That is a relief to hear then. You do come off as someone who has only played EQ2 and AA. Which to me would be a very limited prospective.

Games I have played;

EQ, EQ2, AA, AoC (the first) Allods, Neverwinter, DDO, STO, WoW, WAR, Rift, GW2, LotRO, VG, PS2, EvE, BDO, Runescape, DCUO, Defiance, Trove and ESO.

There are a few others, the above are just the ones I played enough to consider myself to have an understanding of the basics or at least the basics from when I played them.

The reason I talk about EQ2 and AA the most is because EQ2 had by far the best raid content of any of these games (you will hardly hear me mention it outside of raid discussion), and AA is the game most similar to Ashes that I have played.

While EQ2 is the game I spent the most amount of time in, Archeage is not the game I spent the second most amount of time in, despite it being the game I talk the second most about here.

I don't want it to be cheesed with people res spamming, and turtling with all defensive/resistance gear.

Again, if this is possible, the develoeprs failed.

Unless the content is designed so there is only one method to kill an encounter, enrage timers can't really be used. Different methods will take different amounts of time - this is outright unavoidable.

Now again, it's great if some encounters are designed around there only being one way to take it on. That is absolutely something that some encounters should do. However, there should also be some encounters that are designed around there being several different possible ways of taking the encounter on, each way potentially requireing a different raid build - and as such leaving the raid with completely different DPS outputs.

To me there just has to be some sort of soft or hard enrage built into every encounter.

To me, mechanics that can wipe a raid perform the same function as a soft enrage. The longer the encounter goes on for, the higher the chance of the raid failing one of these and wiping. The better the individual players in the raid - and the leadership of the raid - the longer they can survive through these mechanics.

However, if the developers built the encounter well, there will be a limit.

maouw

daveywavey wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

I'd like to play with the idea of necromancers having a different flavour resurrection.
Clerics resurrect you back to normal, but necromancy brings back your friends semi-alive with all their gear. Like they can quick cast your ashes and you return as either a decaying revenant (immune to non-holy magic, weak to physical damage) or an ethereal wraith (weak to magic, immune to physical damage) as long as they have the mana to sustain your form.

Then you pair them with a class that keeps everyone's mana topped up, and the necromancer basically sustains your whole party in undead form.

And if the necromancer dies, so too do their resurrected allies!

Let's also not forget the awesomeness that is Bard. Bard appears to be a support class, and so should probably have a resurrect skill, albeit weaker than the Cleric's.

Yeah I can see that. Seems the most appropriate class for out-of-combat resurrection?
hehehe... I would love if bards could feign death too.

Noaani

daveywavey wrote: »

And if the necromancer dies, so too do their resurrected allies!

That is actually an interesting mechanic, I quite like it.

If you are brought back by a necro, you have a window of somewhere around 5 or 10 minutes where if that necro dies, you die again as well. Combine it with the idea above of clerics having a fairly slow cast that requires two clerics while the necro can cast it fairly quickly on their own, and I could see it being quite good.

That is the sort of thing that could instantly swing a PvP fight, in some situations.

insomnia

Haven't they already mentioned clerics would be able to do it.
I'd say yes

Nagash

daveywavey wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

I'd like to play with the idea of necromancers having a different flavour resurrection.
Clerics resurrect you back to normal, but necromancy brings back your friends semi-alive with all their gear. Like they can quick cast your ashes and you return as either a decaying revenant (immune to non-holy magic, weak to physical damage) or an ethereal wraith (weak to magic, immune to physical damage) as long as they have the mana to sustain your form.

Then you pair them with a class that keeps everyone's mana topped up, and the necromancer basically sustains your whole party in undead form.

And if the necromancer dies, so too do their resurrected allies!

Let's also not forget the awesomeness that is Bard. Bard appears to be a support class, and so should probably have a resurrect skill, albeit weaker than the Cleric's.

Good luck killing us tho

Mahes

I get to go all "Back in the day" on the "is it tiring to raid 16+ hours".

Having raided for about 36 consecutive hours on one raid(/Wave Plane of Fear when it originally came out), I can say that it gets tiring. A raid should not last much longer then 6 hours. It just really shouldn't. Now a raid could last longer initially when learning the content but even that should be something that could be continued the next day as a guild/group progressed. Most players do not want constant game attention for long periods of time because it does drain you. The only reason I put up with such a long raid before was because I did not want to lose everything that was on my character. Plane of Fear and Hate in the old days was a B*&(^.

That being said, I support an in combat resurrection system, as long as it is not abusive. If players can chain res an encounter, that design needs to be reworked. I have heard of a chain res system being used in a major encounter before but nobody really said anything, because it was such a raid, that was only done to say it had been done(/Wave Sleeper). No real loot came from that fight.

It really is difficult to measure anything right now because nobody here knows the whole system going into this game. This game has so much work left that it is impossible to judge how a resurrection system will effect it. I am positive that this discussion was had many times within the developers meetings.

Yuyukoyay

I think Combat Rez shouldn't be a thing Clerics can do. However, I think it is a thing certain classes should be able to do.

An ability like that is so powerful I wouldn't mind if it had a 16 hour cooldown. Not opposed to it being lower, but a lot of games really undervalue how powerful that ability is. There needs to be a drawback big enough so people don't do the crap they did in WoW like when they had a warlock tank vanilla nax or when they cheesed fights by having nearly all warlock comps. Just having a Warlock alt was basically mandatory in WoW due to the soul stones.

I also don't want dungeons or raids to feel like you really need these abilities to do them. You should feel weaker overall doing them with classes that can battle rez if the battle rez is on a lower cooldown.

I am against Clerics doing it baseline simply because of the sheer power of battle rez and I don't like the idea of having it for easier content before you become a class. On top of it being a cool unique thing certain classes could have for themselves to make options people would normally not pick more of a good option.

Amel

I like the way Classic WoW does combat rez. Only a few classes have access to it and it takes a reagent and has a long cooldown.

neuroguy

I think combat res is ok as long as it is uncommon (like cleric/cleric only) or have some absurd cost like "5s cast, consumes all remaining mana with more mana consumed resulting in a shorter cast time down to a minimum of 1s; incurs cooldown if used in combat". That means full mana cast = 1s. half mana = 3s. ~no mana = 5s. Interruptible of course.
This way players can still res all party members after a wipe without cooldown, and in combat you have to either coordinate with the raid to heal up the newly rezed player, or weigh the risk vs reward (perhaps you can res the rouge who can hide and heal up themselves or you need your party to do without your healing until you can regenerate enough mana to be functional).

Neaux

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I would instead like to see it be considered as a 2 person ritual in combat. Like you start casting it and a second player needs to help you channel it in order to coordinate a res in combat. Kind of like the summoning stones in WOW.

Out of combat could just be a normal spell.

I like this - but if it didn't work into their fantasy for whatever reason another way you could do it would be for some of the support style classes to store some 'soul shard' type of charge for use with in-combat res and once that charge was gone it would have to be 'recharged' out of combat. That way a raid of 20 people could prepare in advance and know that they had say 5 in-combat charges ready and dispense them carefully - maybe a Cleric/Cleric could have 2 charges and use them both to self-res in a pinch.

The flip side of using charges for res purposes could be to give the stronger DPS style classes the same type of advantage from a DPS perspective. They could store charges for use as long DPS burst windows like 20 seconds of bonus critical strikes or one long cool-down, high damage charge like a Shadow Knight's Harm Touch from EQ1.

The latter would also add a little fun/risk to PVP - "should I jump this guy or not? .. wonder if he's got his Harm Touch up."

Sathrago

I don't think there should be any form of combat rez and here's why. In a game that is designing for massive sieges and combat between hundreds of players there is no need for in combat rezzing because.... You can just assign a squad of supports/healers that specifically run around out of combat rezzing people. This is a strategy that was used in wow to some success and I feel is more meaningful for skilled game-play than just being able to do it in combat. I think it would be really cool to have a specialized healer squad that roam and do such a thing, and the back and forth strategies between both sides on how to most effectively use such a group or hinder them would add another layer of gameplay to large battles.

This is essentially the equivalent of players creating their own rudamentary spawning point on the battle field that requires a bit of skill on the part of the healing squad and their party members to keep them out of combat so that they can do their job and keep the "zombified" corpses of their allies respawning to uphold a push on a strategic point.

Noaani

Sathrago wrote: »

I don't think there should be any form of combat rez and here's why. In a game that is designing for massive sieges and combat between hundreds of players there is no need for in combat rezzing because.... You can just assign a squad of supports/healers that specifically run around out of combat rezzing people. This is a strategy that was used in wow to some success and I feel is more meaningful for skilled game-play than just being able to do it in combat. I think it would be really cool to have a specialized healer squad that roam and do such a thing, and the back and forth strategies between both sides on how to most effectively use such a group or hinder them would add another layer of gameplay to large battles.

This is essentially the equivalent of players creating their own rudamentary spawning point on the battle field that requires a bit of skill on the part of the healing squad and their party members to keep them out of combat so that they can do their job and keep the "zombified" corpses of their allies respawning to uphold a push on a strategic point.

That sounds to me like it is creating a single point of victory for large scale PvP.

Take out the other teams rez squad and you've basically won.

I could agree with this as a reason to limit in combat res, but not to remove it.

Sathrago

Noaani wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

I don't think there should be any form of combat rez and here's why. In a game that is designing for massive sieges and combat between hundreds of players there is no need for in combat rezzing because.... You can just assign a squad of supports/healers that specifically run around out of combat rezzing people. This is a strategy that was used in wow to some success and I feel is more meaningful for skilled game-play than just being able to do it in combat. I think it would be really cool to have a specialized healer squad that roam and do such a thing, and the back and forth strategies between both sides on how to most effectively use such a group or hinder them would add another layer of gameplay to large battles.

This is essentially the equivalent of players creating their own rudamentary spawning point on the battle field that requires a bit of skill on the part of the healing squad and their party members to keep them out of combat so that they can do their job and keep the "zombified" corpses of their allies respawning to uphold a push on a strategic point.

That sounds to me like it is creating a single point of victory for large scale PvP.

Take out the other teams rez squad and you've basically won.

I could agree with this as a reason to limit in combat res, but not to remove it.

I would disagree, it just creates another strategy to win by. Just like if you sneak a group of players around and flank the enemy casters you can win a fight. It's basically another element of proper positioning on the battleground.

Let me put it another way, combat rezzing is extremely difficult to balance. It is either worthless because you come back with no resources to actually fight or absurdly overpowered because you can. If there is a class or specialization that can combat rez you will see the exact same sort of "rez group" except now they are also fighting you at the cost of nothing. having a large group of essentially cloned characters for the express purpose of being able to "double" your combat numbers in the middle of combat does not seem like a good idea to me.

With it requiring you to leave combat these rezzed players will have a reduced immediate impact on a fight, needing to heal/mana up before traveling a distance to return to the battlefield.

Another good thing about this is, it encourages defending parties to actively try to disrupt this "supply chain" of reinforcements.

Now, if you can give me an idea of the restrictions you would place on said combat rez that would actually work in such large battles, I am all ears.

Enigmatic Sage

Nagash wrote: »

I mean thats the whole job of necromancers

revival vs resurrection vs reanimation

similar, yet different.
Would be interesting to reanimate fallen combatants before they can be resurrected and possibly blocking resurrection/revival temporarily

Noaani

Sathrago wrote: »

I would disagree, it just creates another strategy to win by. Just like if you sneak a group of players around and flank the enemy casters you can win a fight. It's basically another element of proper positioning on the battleground.

As I said, I see it as a good idea, just not as the only way to rez players.

The strategy of this will be held in place perfectly fine if there is limited in combat rez, it just means that the loss of your out of combat team (or even the opposition managing to get your out of combat team locked in to combat) isn't an automatic loss - which is what it would be if this was the only way to rez players.

Again, it's a good thing, and if there were limited in combat rez available this is something that would be great to see large scale PvP organize, but this as a strategy only needs a limit on in combat rez, not a complete absence of it. And if it is limited rather than completely absent, it makes this specific strategy a generally good idea, rather than a must have and lose if it fails situation.

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