maybe not a dps meter but what about this...

What do you guys think about this idea that I just got...? There is a lot of people who do not want dps meters and there is a lot of people who want to improve skill rotation, right? What if we had a trainig zone were there are those Training Dummy which tells you how´s doing dps doing compare to other players? if ya want to see how you are actually doing so you must go to the training zone and check it out, these Trainig Dummy could copilate all the info from others players and let you know if your dps is low/medium or high (just lets us knows if very low,low, high,medium.etc)

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Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

Your plan to make it a Guild perk.. I was all for at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I did not think it fit. Mainly because you said things like you would still use one if the game did not provide it. So basically even if it was a guild perk, you could skip the perk, take the Guild Damage perk, and use your addon and get both advantages. See the issue here?

I can see how people not overly familiar with the conversation could see an issue there.

I can go in to a longer version of this if you wanted, but the short version is - if the other options to pick are thi gs that assist members of the guild with running group or solo content, or offer up occasional bonus harvests while out gathering, a raid guild simply wouldn't be interested in these things at all, and *ABSOLUTELY* wouldn't consider the effort needed to be worth it for something like that.

However, a guild that is all about crafting would probably quite like bonus harvests as one of their guild perks, and a guild that runs group content all the time may well enjoy a buff in that content.

Which of these perks helps with the best materials and or gear drops? My guess would be raiding..
I mean... obviously fishing and gathering plants has to be right up there with raid boss drops... right?

While I can see there being crafting guilds, or smaller guilds who just party together.. none of them would benefit from their perk like you do. While you are out there getting legendary drops, whether material wise or gear wise.. they would be getting extra carrots on a harvest? Or maybe even double the iron from a vein they found in a mine? Obviously there will be top tier gathering nodes in the world, but you have to get to it first, and with random spawn points... it is not as easy as it sounds. While you get instanced runs where no one can steal your boss, you know exactly where it is and what time it will be there.. Again.. your guild has the short and long term advantage here.

This post has no connection to combat trackers at all. Whether it was your intention or not, it is a straight up anti- top end rant.

Literally every point you mention is a point to be discussed with or without combat trackers, and combat trackers do not in any way alter that discussion.

If this is a discussion you want to have (raiders are out there getting legendary drops, while harvesters are picking carrots), by all means start a thread on it.

However, it has no connection to combat trackers.

Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

Your plan to make it a Guild perk.. I was all for at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I did not think it fit. Mainly because you said things like you would still use one if the game did not provide it. So basically even if it was a guild perk, you could skip the perk, take the Guild Damage perk, and use your addon and get both advantages. See the issue here?

I can see how people not overly familiar with the conversation could see an issue there.

I can go in to a longer version of this if you wanted, but the short version is - if the other options to pick are thi gs that assist members of the guild with running group or solo content, or offer up occasional bonus harvests while out gathering, a raid guild simply wouldn't be interested in these things at all, and *ABSOLUTELY* wouldn't consider the effort needed to be worth it for something like that.

However, a guild that is all about crafting would probably quite like bonus harvests as one of their guild perks, and a guild that runs group content all the time may well enjoy a buff in that content.

Which of these perks helps with the best materials and or gear drops? My guess would be raiding..
I mean... obviously fishing and gathering plants has to be right up there with raid boss drops... right?

While I can see there being crafting guilds, or smaller guilds who just party together.. none of them would benefit from their perk like you do. While you are out there getting legendary drops, whether material wise or gear wise.. they would be getting extra carrots on a harvest? Or maybe even double the iron from a vein they found in a mine? Obviously there will be top tier gathering nodes in the world, but you have to get to it first, and with random spawn points... it is not as easy as it sounds. While you get instanced runs where no one can steal your boss, you know exactly where it is and what time it will be there.. Again.. your guild has the short and long term advantage here.

This post has no connection to combat trackers at all. Whether it was your intention or not, it is a straight up anti- top end rant.

Literally every point you mention is a point to be discussed with or without combat trackers, and combat trackers do not in any way alter that discussion.

If this is a discussion you want to have (raiders are out there getting legendary drops, while harvesters are picking carrots), by all means start a thread on it.

However, it has no connection to combat trackers.

Man... I must have pushed your buttons so hard you forgot you were the one to mention harvesting and group perks. All I did did was expand why that would not work... and then you come back with a "Start a new thread, your post is irrelevant" mumbo jumbo? Get a grip bro... seriously.

A tracker perk trumps all other perks because it affords you better and faster gains. It is that simple...

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

Your plan to make it a Guild perk.. I was all for at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I did not think it fit. Mainly because you said things like you would still use one if the game did not provide it. So basically even if it was a guild perk, you could skip the perk, take the Guild Damage perk, and use your addon and get both advantages. See the issue here?

I can see how people not overly familiar with the conversation could see an issue there.

I can go in to a longer version of this if you wanted, but the short version is - if the other options to pick are thi gs that assist members of the guild with running group or solo content, or offer up occasional bonus harvests while out gathering, a raid guild simply wouldn't be interested in these things at all, and *ABSOLUTELY* wouldn't consider the effort needed to be worth it for something like that.

However, a guild that is all about crafting would probably quite like bonus harvests as one of their guild perks, and a guild that runs group content all the time may well enjoy a buff in that content.

Which of these perks helps with the best materials and or gear drops? My guess would be raiding..
I mean... obviously fishing and gathering plants has to be right up there with raid boss drops... right?

While I can see there being crafting guilds, or smaller guilds who just party together.. none of them would benefit from their perk like you do. While you are out there getting legendary drops, whether material wise or gear wise.. they would be getting extra carrots on a harvest? Or maybe even double the iron from a vein they found in a mine? Obviously there will be top tier gathering nodes in the world, but you have to get to it first, and with random spawn points... it is not as easy as it sounds. While you get instanced runs where no one can steal your boss, you know exactly where it is and what time it will be there.. Again.. your guild has the short and long term advantage here.

This post has no connection to combat trackers at all. Whether it was your intention or not, it is a straight up anti- top end rant.

Literally every point you mention is a point to be discussed with or without combat trackers, and combat trackers do not in any way alter that discussion.

If this is a discussion you want to have (raiders are out there getting legendary drops, while harvesters are picking carrots), by all means start a thread on it.

However, it has no connection to combat trackers.

Man... I must have pushed your buttons so hard you forgot you were the one to mention harvesting and group perks. All I did did was expand why that would not work... and then you come back with a "Start a new thread, your post is irrelevant" mumbo jumbo? Get a grip bro... seriously.

A tracker perk trumps all other perks because it affords you better and faster gains. It is that simple...

If a guild is dedicated to harvesting, a combat tracker that only works in raid content isnt of much use to them. On the other hand, an ability that adds an additional regular harvest 10% of the time you harvest (as an example), would be a fantastic boon to people that sell regular harvests as their main source of income.

While I am not doing any more than giving examples of what other perks could be, the general idea is that they are boons to the specific playstyle or preferred content type of different guilds.

That is why your post is not applicable to a discussion on combat trackers. You are basically saying that one playstyle is better or worse than another, as your points all apply with or without combat trackers - or indeed with or without perks.

Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

Your plan to make it a Guild perk.. I was all for at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I did not think it fit. Mainly because you said things like you would still use one if the game did not provide it. So basically even if it was a guild perk, you could skip the perk, take the Guild Damage perk, and use your addon and get both advantages. See the issue here?

I can see how people not overly familiar with the conversation could see an issue there.

I can go in to a longer version of this if you wanted, but the short version is - if the other options to pick are thi gs that assist members of the guild with running group or solo content, or offer up occasional bonus harvests while out gathering, a raid guild simply wouldn't be interested in these things at all, and *ABSOLUTELY* wouldn't consider the effort needed to be worth it for something like that.

However, a guild that is all about crafting would probably quite like bonus harvests as one of their guild perks, and a guild that runs group content all the time may well enjoy a buff in that content.

Which of these perks helps with the best materials and or gear drops? My guess would be raiding..
I mean... obviously fishing and gathering plants has to be right up there with raid boss drops... right?

While I can see there being crafting guilds, or smaller guilds who just party together.. none of them would benefit from their perk like you do. While you are out there getting legendary drops, whether material wise or gear wise.. they would be getting extra carrots on a harvest? Or maybe even double the iron from a vein they found in a mine? Obviously there will be top tier gathering nodes in the world, but you have to get to it first, and with random spawn points... it is not as easy as it sounds. While you get instanced runs where no one can steal your boss, you know exactly where it is and what time it will be there.. Again.. your guild has the short and long term advantage here.

This post has no connection to combat trackers at all. Whether it was your intention or not, it is a straight up anti- top end rant.

Literally every point you mention is a point to be discussed with or without combat trackers, and combat trackers do not in any way alter that discussion.

If this is a discussion you want to have (raiders are out there getting legendary drops, while harvesters are picking carrots), by all means start a thread on it.

However, it has no connection to combat trackers.

Man... I must have pushed your buttons so hard you forgot you were the one to mention harvesting and group perks. All I did did was expand why that would not work... and then you come back with a "Start a new thread, your post is irrelevant" mumbo jumbo? Get a grip bro... seriously.

A tracker perk trumps all other perks because it affords you better and faster gains. It is that simple...

If a guild is dedicated to harvesting, a combat tracker that only works in raid content isnt of much use to them. On the other hand, an ability that adds an additional regular harvest 10% of the time you harvest (as an example), would be a fantastic boon to people that sell regular harvests as their main source of income.

While I am not doing any more than giving examples of what other perks could be, the general idea is that they are boons to the specific playstyle or preferred content type of different guilds.

That is why your post is not applicable to a discussion on combat trackers. You are basically saying that one playstyle is better or worse than another, as your points all apply with or without combat trackers - or indeed with or without perks.

I think you are arguing just to argue now, your points get weaker and weaker the more you talk.. and you just do not stop talking.

If a guild is dedicated to harvesting only? Of course they exist... but this is your argument now? You are literally now compartmentalizing every guild into only one type of play to make your point. You assume every guild will have one and only one purpose in game. This has got to be a joke...

What happens if the crafting guild wants to go on a raid? How are they to going to beat this impossible boss the Development team has made for you and your elite raiding guild? Are they supposed to craft something and amaze this beast so much it stuns him while they kill it?

You see.. there are people that enjoy every aspect of the game. Your perk system is asking them to choose one aspect to be good at, and suffer on the rest. How does this even remotely sound like a solid plan to you?

Noaani

It is very clear that this conversation is well over your head, but I am going to go through most of your points here and simply remind you of things we have talked about.

Recluse74 wrote: »

If a guild is dedicated to harvesting only? Of course they exist... but this is your argument now? You are literally now compartmentalizing every guild into only one type of play to make your point. You assume every guild will have one and only one purpose in game. This has got to be a joke...

As I said earlier, I am being general as to what perks could exist.

The idea of these perks is that they would appeal to different play styles, and most guilds tend to form based around a specific play style.

I am not being any more specific than giving general examples because I am not a part of the community that these other perks would be aimed at, so why should I dictate what they should or should not be?

What happens if the crafting guild wants to go on a raid? How are they to going to beat this impossible boss the Development team has made for you and your elite raiding guild? Are they supposed to craft something and amaze this beast so much it stuns him while they kill it?

If a crafting guild wants to go out and raid, that is absolutely fantastic.

They can then go and run all the raid content that is specifically not designed to only be killed by that single digit percent of players. Remember, I have pointed out several times just to you (and dozens of times in genera), that we are only talking about maybe three encounters on a server that need a combat tracker, and those encounters will be killed by a very small percentage of the population.

It is perfectly reasonable to assume that any group of players wishing to excel in any one content type (PvP, PvE, crafting, what ever) would need to have guild perks specific to that content type - and this suggestion is just a part of that.

You see.. there are people that enjoy every aspect of the game. Your perk system is asking them to choose one aspect to be good at, and suffer on the rest. How does this even remotely sound like a solid plan to you?

Indeed there are, and I should congratulate you for this being the only point in this post that we have not gone over (though I have gone over it with many other people).

The interesting thing with this is that guilds that want to do everything would pick perks that facilitate that - whereas guilds that want to excel at one type of content will pick perks that facilitate their objective.

Are you suggesting choices are bad? Because choice and consequences of that choice are kind of a key theme of this game...

halbarz

This is never-ending, and honestly, we could go on for another page with the same ping pong. The real question people should be asking (we might need a new thread on this) ... when does Noaani sleep?

Noaani

halbarz wrote: »

when does Noaani sleep?

Who says I do?

Recluse74

@Noanni

Conversation is not over my head lol. Just because you try to dumb it down by being general does not mean there are not real questions to be answered here. As a matter of fact, you being general in your explanation is just going to bring more questions. So do not fault me because you cannot explain your fix it all system in a way that does not bring questions.

So in following your request to the devs to make content specifically to your liking.. I would like to ask them for a guild perk in your system, that gives PvP players 20% higher PvP stats against people who have participated in a raid in the last hour. I know sounds silly.. but thought I'd join the fun.

Dygz

Hmmn. But the raiding guild is going to want to bring along Artisans who can spoil the best resources from the mobs/bosses. Likely, if it's an elitist "top end" raiding guild, those Artisans will also be max level Adventurers who excel at raiding.

Steven most certainly believes that one playstyle is better and the other is worse - which is why Steven uses words like toxic and mechanical bullshit when referring to dps meters. Steven does not want players relying on (group) combat trackers during dungeons and raids. As far as we know, he's not going to support dps meters by including them as a guild perk - he's not going to support them at all.

Anyone can think it's wiser for Steven to support combat trackers - but that has no bearing on reality.
Anyone can be confident that Steven will eventually cave and end up implementing combat trackers because so many players are using add-ons...
At that point...we just wait to see who ends up being right: Those are confident Steven will cave or Those who think Steven will stick to his guns.

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

So in following your request to the devs to make content specifically to your liking.. I would like to ask them for a guild perk in your system, that gives PvP players 20% higher PvP stats against people who have participated in a raid in the last hour. I know sounds silly.. but thought I'd join the fun.

That kind of a bonus is enough for guilds to go with a second/third party combat tracker. Remember, we wanted perks here that wouldn't do that, otherwise we are just dealing with poor implementation.

That level of boost to group content would be fine, however.

This is why I think this topic is over your head. You claim to be keeping up, but we talk about a thing, then move on to something else and you make a point that is completely forgetting the thing we had just talked about.

I mean, we just finished saying that I am not going to dictate what the perks should be, other than that they need to be of little value to a raid guild, and you come up with 20% stat buff in PvP, in a game where raid guilds will need to be taking on other players while also taking on raid content (at literally the same time).

That says nothing to me either than that you are not connecting things to form a larger picture - you are not following along.

The other perhaps amusing thing is, in making a suggestion like this, you are saying that you are perfectly fine with the idea of the system, it is just a case of what perks other playstyles get. As I have said a few times, I am not interested in that discussion, my only input in to it would be whether a given perk would see me and my guild opt for a third party tracker (and the issues that come with it) so that we could take the suggested perk.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

At that point...we just wait to see who ends up being right: Those are confident Steven will cave or Those who think Steven will stick to his guns.

I mean, this is obviously the case, and has been what I have been saying will happen since Steven gave his position on combat trackers.

My point with that is - that is not what is best for the game. Intrepid is saying they want a different result to other games in terms of combat trackers, yet is taking the exact same position.

If you want a different result, you have to take a different path.

As to the start of your post here - it is always amusing watching you try to tell me what raiders will do

Khronus

ViBunja wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ViBunja wrote: »

The whole idea of not adding DPS meters is to get people to talk and interact with them, it's meant to be a very social game.

Combat trackers do not detract from the social aspects of an MMORPG.

Raid Leader Looks at DPS Meter after wipe.
Looks at the lowest DPS from a player.
Kicks player.
Player they kicked out was the healer.

Genius.

I haven't read this thread in a while so sorry for replying to an old post. Didn't know it was old until it was written out haha. This is how it should be.

Raid leader quickly determines why there was a wipe and encourages thoughts from the entire team.

Turns out dps was the issue.

Looks at the lowest DPS from the entire raid.

Raid leader sends correct class officers into a private channel with 4-5 of the lowest dps and makes sure players are using proper rotations and specs. 5-10 minutes max while the raid leader continues to get everyone grouped up for another attempt.

If this continues, maybe look into replacing the dps with someone else BUT be sure to get back to this replaced player and work with them individually. Class officers should be responsible for their players.

If it is a healing issue, same thing for healers.

If you have a raid leader who kicks a healer for more dps mid raid, you have a shit raid leader. Find a new guild. (and I mean this with the utmost respect... I want you to do well).

Plutar

This thread has slowly degenerated and started recycling points with less and less clarity afforded.

At the end of the day, we need to remember this: Steven has said they will not be in the game at launch. Full Stop. If you then go out of your way to subvert this rule to use 3rd party tools, you are against TOS, and deserve to be banned and lose all of your cosmetics.

I am going to make an EXTREME example here, for illustrative purposes.
Murder is Illegal; Most People do not get murdered; There are those who get away with Murder; Therefore, we should enable Murder for those who want to do it, because it only affects a small percentage of the population, and people really want it.

Remember, you're just one user, out of a potential Millions. And while some are substantially more vocal, for better or worse, it does not increase their stature or importance. The sense of entitlement coming from those saying "I will do it regardless, so make it snappy" is frankly saddening and reeks of a toxic culture. There are those who claim to be in the top 1% of raiders, but conveniently forgets to mention which games they are king of. You are not special, you are like everyone else. And you will be subject to the rules, as everyone else, or face the consequences of your actions.

I speak from a personal standpoint, as that is all I can do. Others in this thread should learn to speak for themselves rather then assume they know what collections of communities want. To assume past experiences with unrelated games is a prophecy of what's to come is misguided.

I write this having labored through these posts, re-reading the same non-arguments. Let's all move on, Steven settled it and no matter how many pages we fill, you just aren't getting what you want (If you're Pro-Tracker).

*Edit* for grammar.

Noaani

Zythtyz wrote: »

I am going to make an EXTREME example here, for illustrative purposes.
Murder is Illegal

This is not a good example.

In order for this to work, murder would need to be legal everywhere else, as that is the case with combat trackers.

A better example would be how it is technically illegal to send your friends a surprise pizza in Louisiana. You know what though? People still do it, because it's a stupid law that only applies there, and no one else seems to have an issue with it.

Songcaller

We can't stop cheaters cheating, we can only report cheaters who cheat. Ultimately, IS has stated the official stance so it is up to IS to enforce the stance. I certainly wish the cheaters luck because so far IS has been quite sharp on other cheating areas such as RMT. Though IS were lax on Multi Boxing after a vote I'm not sure a vote will ever happen for combat trackers.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

In order for this to work, murder would need to be legal everywhere else, as that is the case with combat trackers.

Murder is legal most places in the universe. Most people just can't get to those places yet...

Noaani wrote: »

A better example would be how it is technically illegal to send your friends a surprise pizza in Louisiana. You know what though? People still do it, because it's a stupid law that only applies there, and no one else seems to have an issue with it.

Apparently it is illegal to drive in my state barefoot. As a no socks with my flip flops kind of guy I often break the law and drive bare foot.

Ultimately, I think I would end up parsing if it was easily available. It is just too much quality of life to ignore. Just like driving bare foot.

Plutar

Noaani wrote: »

In order for this to work, murder would need to be legal everywhere else, as that is the case with combat trackers.

FFXIV, one counter-example to disprove your over-generalization.

*Edit: On top of that, your method of playing against the rules kills the fun for the rest of us who play by the rules, and thus is more akin to my example than your paltry pizza example.

Vhaeyne

Zythtyz wrote: »

FFXIV, one counter-example to disprove your over-generalization.

https://www.fflogs.com/

Plutar

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Zythtyz wrote: »

FFXIV, one counter-example to disprove your over-generalization.

https://www.fflogs.com/

Just because people do it doesn't make it allowed: Pirated Movies, as an example.

To the best of my Knowledge, Combat Trackers ARE against TOS for FFXIV, and if you get caught using them in a manner to exclude people you can get banned for it. However, just because they CAN take action against something because it is against TOS, it does not mean they WILL. They do answer to shareholders, unlike IS.

Vhaeyne

Zythtyz wrote: »

Just because people do it doesn't make it allowed: Pirated Movies, as an example.

To the best of my Knowledge, Combat Trackers ARE against TOS for FFXIV, and if you get caught using them in a manner to exclude people you can get banned for it. However, just because they CAN take action against something because it is against TOS, it does not mean they WILL. They do answer to shareholders, unlike IS.

In FFXIV trackers are allowed though. You are just not allowed to SHAME peoples DPS. It is strictly "Don't ask don't tell". Damn the TOS, that is what Yoshi-P has said many times. The only instance of a banning I have ever heard of was when a streamer called out a party member on twitch. Otherwise people stream on twitch with the tracker up all day. It would take no effort for square to ban streamers with ACT on their screen.

Also FFXIVs approach creates a debatably less helpful environment to play the game in. Often times people will just leave a pug after one or two pulls when they see low DPS instead of staying and trying to help. Talking about DPS is too risky. This is why groups fall apart so fast in Savage/EX pugs. In other games people will out right expect DPS to be brought up, and thus put more effort into learning to DPS. It may come off as toxic, but pugs are far more productive outside of FFXIV in my experience.

What you get in FFXIV is these never parsers going from fail pug to fail pug until they get carried. It is a waste of everyone's involves time. I know because every time me and the boys get on the new content and start pug filling extra slots. We have to filter out a sea of people who don't know they are bad (and never will). I have a ignore list and a friends list a mile long in FFXIV. It is not like that in any other MMO I have ever played.

The best thing to do is block the bad player. Drop group. Remake the group. This is terrible, but it is the only productive way to pug raids in FFXIV.

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