maybe not a dps meter but what about this...

What do you guys think about this idea that I just got...? There is a lot of people who do not want dps meters and there is a lot of people who want to improve skill rotation, right? What if we had a trainig zone were there are those Training Dummy which tells you how´s doing dps doing compare to other players? if ya want to see how you are actually doing so you must go to the training zone and check it out, these Trainig Dummy could copilate all the info from others players and let you know if your dps is low/medium or high (just lets us knows if very low,low, high,medium.etc)

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Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

So in following your request to the devs to make content specifically to your liking.. I would like to ask them for a guild perk in your system, that gives PvP players 20% higher PvP stats against people who have participated in a raid in the last hour. I know sounds silly.. but thought I'd join the fun.

That kind of a bonus is enough for guilds to go with a second/third party combat tracker. Remember, we wanted perks here that wouldn't do that, otherwise we are just dealing with poor implementation.

That level of boost to group content would be fine, however.

This is why I think this topic is over your head. You claim to be keeping up, but we talk about a thing, then move on to something else and you make a point that is completely forgetting the thing we had just talked about.

I mean, we just finished saying that I am not going to dictate what the perks should be, other than that they need to be of little value to a raid guild, and you come up with 20% stat buff in PvP, in a game where raid guilds will need to be taking on other players while also taking on raid content (at literally the same time).

That says nothing to me either than that you are not connecting things to form a larger picture - you are not following along.

The other perhaps amusing thing is, in making a suggestion like this, you are saying that you are perfectly fine with the idea of the system, it is just a case of what perks other playstyles get. As I have said a few times, I am not interested in that discussion, my only input in to it would be whether a given perk would see me and my guild opt for a third party tracker (and the issues that come with it) so that we could take the suggested perk.

I will stop using sarcasm in my posts as you do not know me as a person, so you cannot tell when I am being sarcastic.

My comment on the PvP stat bonus was, in fact, sarcasm.. I would never want an unfair bonus like that against another player. Which is what I am trying to get across to you.. You should never want to have an unfair advantage over another player. The only thing that should make a difference between you and me in game, should be our skill level and nothing more. If this is something you disagree with, you are a lost cause.. no sarcasm.

My argument about the Guild Perks is in the form of guild focus. What I mean by this is, If a guild says that they are PvE Raid focused, this does not define them 100%. There will be some members that like other portions of the game, like PvP and or crafting. Same goes for PvP focused guilds, there will be some members that like all aspects.

When a guild is held to choose a perk, it narrows the focus of that guild. Does not matter what that perk is, it narrows the focus, making it harder for people to enjoy more aspects of the game than what their guild perk will allow.

So a guy who likes to craft and raid has to choose his guild based on what he finds more important. Which essentially cuts off a portion of the game to that player. If he chooses Raid, his crafting suffers, and if he chooses crafting, his raiding suffers. This is not a cool way to keep people interested in your game.

Plutar

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Zythtyz wrote: »

Just because people do it doesn't make it allowed: Pirated Movies, as an example.

To the best of my Knowledge, Combat Trackers ARE against TOS for FFXIV, and if you get caught using them in a manner to exclude people you can get banned for it. However, just because they CAN take action against something because it is against TOS, it does not mean they WILL. They do answer to shareholders, unlike IS.

In FFXIV trackers are allowed though. You are just not allowed to SHAME peoples DPS. It is strictly "Don't ask don't tell". Damn the TOS, that is what Yoshi-P has said many times. The only instance of a banning I have ever heard of was when a streamer called out a party member on twitch. Otherwise people stream on twitch with the tracker up all day. It would take no effort for square to ban streamers with ACT on their screen.

Also FFXIVs approach creates a debatably less helpful environment to play the game in. Often times people will just leave a pug after one or two pulls when they see low DPS instead of staying and trying to help. Talking about DPS is too risky. This is why groups fall apart so fast in Savage/EX pugs. In other games people will out right expect DPS to be brought up, and thus put more effort into learning to DPS. It may come off as toxic, but pugs are far more productive outside of FFXIV in my experience.

What you get in FFXIV is these never parsers going from fail pug to fail pug until they get carried. It is a waste of everyone's involves time. I know because every time me and the boys get on the new content and start pug filling extra slots. We have to filter out a sea of people who don't know they are bad (and never will). I have a ignore list and a friends list a mile long in FFXIV. It is not like that in any other MMO I have ever played.

The best thing to do is block the bad player. Drop group. Remake the group. This is terrible, but it is the only productive way to pug raids in FFXIV.

You just described how using combat trackers in a game that doesn't actually allow them, but won't ban you for using them so long as you don't use them as a means of gating people (which you are, anyways) creates and enforces a toxic culture. You also just described you and your friends as elitists who will kick anyone that doesn't meet your arbitrary standards, when you needed to fill a spot from the public. Perhaps there is a reason you need to PUG someone for content, rather than having people around who want to play with you. You can color it how you will, but all the arguments boil down to you wanting control over how others perform, and you're NOT willing to help others out. If you can see the DPS is low, you can just start talking generally about abilities that work well together, without ever mentioning numbers.

As to your Damn the TOS, when you get banned from breaking them, don't cry

Vhaeyne

Zythtyz wrote: »

You just described how using combat trackers in a game that doesn't actually allow them, but won't ban you for using them so long as you don't use them as a means of gating people (which you are, anyways) creates and enforces a toxic culture.

That toxic culture is there. It is the result of people not having the common courtesy to know what content they should be practicing before going into content they are not ready for. In FFXIV a bad player could just stay in the que for days not knowing they are the reason that groups dissolve around them. If bad players would respond better to even polite constructive criticism it would not be a problem, but because FFXIV has this "You don't pay my sub" culture(Which is toxic in its own way) people will just go from group to group wasting their time and others.

Zythtyz wrote: »

You also just described you and your friends as elitists who will kick anyone that doesn't meet your arbitrary standards, when you needed to fill a spot from the public. Perhaps there is a reason you need to PUG someone for content, rather than having people around who want to play with you.

I am apart of a very old FC that came from FFXI into FFXIV. A FC that does not care to grow. I would not leave it for the world. Not everyone in my FC wants to get on and do savage or EX all of the time. It has nothing to do with our personality's. It just comes with trying to keep a very old informal FC alive. Statics don't always last forever. Sometimes you just need to pug some slots. Not a issue. It is a social game and I like to meet new people. Even if they are all weebs.

Zythtyz wrote: »

You can color it how you will, but all the arguments boil down to you wanting control over how others perform, and you're NOT willing to help others out. If you can see the DPS is low, you can just start talking generally about abilities that work well together, without ever mentioning numbers.

As to your Damn the TOS, when you get banned from breaking them, don't cry

In the case of FFXIV the game does a extremely good job of wanting control over how others preform. The Jobs are among the most ridged as far as how the game expects you to play them of any MMORPG. The game gives you very very few choices on how it is to be played. I could not possibly want any more control over anyone's job than the game does. What I want is one standard deviation from the average DPS at least. When I am on PLD out DPSing a BLM every pull. I have a problem. If I say "Hay BLM, maybe look at this rotation chart on "The Balance" discord, they are super friendly.

UwU". Somehow text like that makes me the problem.

Personally I would be more willing to help people out, but like I said. That "You don't pay my sub" culture is so damn stubborn you often can't help people. I have seen so many of my own attempts to help others and other peoples attempts to help others end in report tickets that it is just not worth it. That is why just dropping group is often the most productive way to handle the situation.

Don't worry I am not going to get banned. I have been navigating this strange waters of FFXIV for years now. If I was going to get banned it would have happened in Heavensward when I was coming from WOW and had a way bigger attitude.

If your experiences in FFXIV are better that is fair, but I personally don't think it is a good example of how prohibiting talk of trackers is a net positive for the game.

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

If a guild says that they are PvE Raid focused, this does not define them 100%.

If a guild is striving for being at the top end of any content type, that does define the guild 100%.

If you are in a top end raid guild and are also a crafter with a stable of crafting alts, those alts are in a different guild.

This is the case in games without perks, and so would be the case in games with perks.

Sure, guilds that are not focused on the top end of any content types exist - and are arguably the majority. Thing is, since a combat tracker is only needed for that very top end of content - content that only top end guilds (who we have already discussed will be singularly focused) will take on - those guilds that are not as focused on it dont need it.

I mean, there are going to be choices in the game where people pick an aspect of the game over the other to excel in, why should guild perks be any different?

Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

If a guild says that they are PvE Raid focused, this does not define them 100%.

If a guild is striving for being at the top end of any content type, that does define the guild 100%.

If you are in a top end raid guild and are also a crafter with a stable of crafting alts, those alts are in a different guild.

This is the case in games without perks, and so would be the case in games with perks.

Sure, guilds that are not focused on the top end of any content types exist - and are arguably the majority. Thing is, since a combat tracker is only needed for that very top end of content - content that only top end guilds (who we have already discussed will be singularly focused) will take on - those guilds that are not as focused on it dont need it.

I mean, there are going to be choices in the game where people pick an aspect of the game over the other to excel in, why should guild perks be any different?

So you would be ok with a PvP focused guild getting a perk that gives them an advantage in PvP, that could potentially help destroy your guild every time they see you in open world?

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

If a guild says that they are PvE Raid focused, this does not define them 100%.

If a guild is striving for being at the top end of any content type, that does define the guild 100%.

If you are in a top end raid guild and are also a crafter with a stable of crafting alts, those alts are in a different guild.

This is the case in games without perks, and so would be the case in games with perks.

Sure, guilds that are not focused on the top end of any content types exist - and are arguably the majority. Thing is, since a combat tracker is only needed for that very top end of content - content that only top end guilds (who we have already discussed will be singularly focused) will take on - those guilds that are not as focused on it dont need it.

I mean, there are going to be choices in the game where people pick an aspect of the game over the other to excel in, why should guild perks be any different?

So you would be ok with a PvP focused guild getting a perk that gives them an advantage in PvP, that could potentially help destroy your guild every time they see you in open world?

Keep in mind the basic requirement of any perk offered needing to not be something that a top end guild would want enough to opt to instead use a third party combat tracker - we already went over this.

PvP is a factor of top end raiding in Ashes - encounters are in the open world so there will be fighting over them. Any benefit to PvP in the open world is a benefit to top end raiding, and will enable a top end raid guild to be more successful.

Again, we went over this just a few posts ago.

Now, if that bonus was in arena PvP, that doesnt benefit any playstyle other than those that participate in instanced PvP. That is a much more appropriate place to add in a perk, rather than a general PvP buff in a game like Ashes.

Recluse74

One thing in common with every single video game ... people will cheat in it.
If you offer a tracker as a guild perk along with other guild perks... People will choose one of the other guild perks and use an 3rd party tracker. 2 for the price of 1..... No way around this.

So it does not matter how crappy you make the other perks, trackers will still be used.

So if the choices were
1. Tracker perk
2. 1% chance to run faster for 2 seconds perk (proc cool down 3 hours)
3. character does not look wet when it rains perk (Perk only active on sunny days)
4. Mounts have a chance to do poop animation perk (Cannot happen on beaches or within 3 meters of cities)
5. log in .00000003% faster into game perk (Only works if logging in when server is full)

Sure.. some idiots would use the tracker perk, but a ton others would choose a 3rd party tracker and get their mounts to poo in game as well... Obviously the usefulness of the perks I added are silly... But the point is, why settle for one when I can get two? This is what you will deal with.

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

People will choose one of the other guild perks and use an 3rd party tracker.

Let's take this line of thinking here and see how it works out.

You know I have said I will have a combat tracker. And I have said others will as well.

However, with Intrepid taking steps to prevent their use, using one will not be easy. There will also be at least the smallest amount of risk associated with it, even if that risk is only in situations where the player makes a mistake in their setup.

So, if the game offers a combat tracker and some other perks, in order for someone to decide to go with a third party tracker in order to have that and also pick a different perk, the perk they opt to pick needs to be worth the effort of running that tracker.

No one is going to go to the effort of running a tracker for any of the things you have said. it just isn't worth the time.

Again, this is something we have been over, and I have to again say that it seems this conversation is well over your head if you keep bringing things like this up.

Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

People will choose one of the other guild perks and use an 3rd party tracker.

Let's take this line of thinking here and see how it works out.

You know I have said I will have a combat tracker. And I have said others will as well.

Following you so far......

However, with Intrepid taking steps to prevent their use, using one will not be easy. There will also be at least the smallest amount of risk associated with it, even if that risk is only in situations where the player makes a mistake in their setup.

You said in the past it would be impossible and too expensive to do this, hence your main reason of adding a tracker in the first place.. because stopping them would be pointless. I see now this is not how you actually think and or feel now. People will still try and get around it though.. It is human nature to want to prove someone wrong, or just go against a system put in place.

So, if the game offers a combat tracker and some other perks, in order for someone to decide to go with a third party tracker in order to have that and also pick a different perk, the perk they opt to pick needs to be worth the effort of running that tracker.

No one is going to go to the effort of running a tracker for any of the things you have said. it just isn't worth the time.

The things I listed were in jest... your understanding of simple comedy is at an all time low here. (although I would be willing to bet someone would choose the poo perk lol)
If any of those perks had any weight to them and added an advantage to anything in game.. whether it be crafting, mounts, gathering, PvP, group play, solo play, you name it... they would choose one of those perks and pick up a 3rd party tracker.. that is a no brainer.

Again, this is something we have been over, and I have to again say that it seems this conversation is well over your head if you keep bringing things like this up.

This last part... find a new insult man. This is not over my head, you just dont have a valid response, so you try to insult my intelligence. Stop projecting it is not working.

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

You said in the past it would be impossible and too expensive to do this

I said it would be impossible to prevent their use outright, I never said it would be impossible to make it hard to use them. Go back and read the thread, this is all right there.

The things I listed were in jest.

No shit, Sherlock.

For some reason, you seem to be focusing on what other perks will be offered. I don't know why, as the concept of guild perks is Intrepids doing, not mine. What they put there would be what they want to put there, my suggestion is simply to add this as one, and offer up similarly advantageous perks for other playstyles, specific perks to specific playstyles.

Since Intrepid have already said

Passive abilities increase certain stats relating to a guild member's ability to perform in combat or in other aspects of the guild, such as the economy

in relation to guild perks, the notion that these perks will be fairly specialized to specific playstyles should be blatantly obvious.

As such, the idea of a combat tracker being added in as one of these perks fits perfectly in with the above - if Intrepid decided that they did indeed want to supply a combat tracker in Ashes.

So, what else is offered is immaterial to the notion that a combat tracker "could" be added as a guild perk, and all that needs to be said from that point on is that the other options need to not be good enough that a guild would want to put in the effort needed to set up a combat tracker just to get said perk.

This last part... find a new insult man.

I'll make you a deal, I'll find a new insult, if you find a "complaint" about the proposal that we haven't gone over recently.

Blackhearted

Why would top tier PvE guilds need qol tools to beat content?
If they are skilled they will be smart enough to get a grasp of mechanics even without trackers simplifying everything for them.
If they cant overcome complex mechanics without trackers they dont deserve to.

Noaanis arguments seem to be suggesting that the top 1% of raiders are too dull to clear the content created for them without breaking the rules.
In case noaani is right, which I highly doubt, IS could leave some data hidden making all kind of screen reading trackers unreliable or completely useless.

Noaani

Blackhearted wrote: »

Why would top tier PvE guilds need qol tools to beat content?
If they are skilled they will be smart enough to get a grasp of mechanics even without trackers simplifying everything for them.

If content is easy enough to beat without a combat tracker, the content is too easy.

That is basically what it comes down to.

Blackhearted wrote: »

In case noaani is right, which I highly doubt, IS could leave some data hidden making all kind of screen reading trackers unreliable or completely useless.

There is already confirmation of combat logs in the games chat system.

However, there are also methods being developed for if Intrepid go back on this comment, although they are
somewhat harder. This would be the start of the cat and mouse thing that is really what Intrepid need to avoid - as the money they would spend on it would be better off spent on new content for the game instead.

Blackhearted

Hiding logs and damage numbers takes very little effort.
Easy enough to be beat without tracker? Lol
Trackers do work, having no tracker means more work for players.
Doing the same content with tracker is easier than doing without.
They can go as far as make content next to impossible, then truly only 1% would manage to beat it.

Noaani

Blackhearted wrote: »

Hiding logs and damage numbers takes very little effort.
Easy enough to be beat without tracker? Lol

It does take very little effort, but Intrepid still want players to have objective data about combat in Ashes - they wouldn't be going to the trouble of adding in a combat log if they didn't want that.

Trackers do work, having no tracker means more work for players.
Doing the same content with tracker is easier than doing without.
They can go as far as make content next to impossible, then truly only 1% would manage to beat it

Actually, they can go as far as making the content impossible to beat, but possible to beat with a combat tracker.

That is where that single digit percent should be.

Marcet

Noaani wrote: »

If content is easy enough to beat without a combat tracker, the content is too easy.

That is basically what it comes down to.

Words of someone utterly addicted to combat trackers. You can't even picture a world without them, do you?

Noaani wrote: »

Actually, they can go as far as making the content impossible to beat, but possible to beat with a combat tracker.

That is where that single digit percent should be.

What are you saying?? Is this for real? You reject so hard the idea of letting go of your precious combat trackers that you just have to say this kind of preposterous things?
This is very sad.

First not believing in the ability of the Intrepid team to make good and difficult bosses. And then comming up with ridiculous claims about only the 1% having to be with combat trackers?? In a game with combat trackers, of course, but not in a game without them! Like AOE.

So stop with the delirious claims and if you don't like the game, im sure there's plenty others for you.

Blackhearted

So what ure seeking is not hard content but content created for trackers so u have a reason to use tracker.

So its not hard for them to block trackers but they would just prefer if people had the spine to challenge themselves.

Funny how mmo community is looking for something new and different but damning themselves by clinging to past.

Recluse74

@Noanni

I will give you the fact that guild perks will apparently be in the game, this was unknown to me, so my bad.

And since this is the case, no matter if they add a tracker as a guild perk or not, 3rd party trackers will try to be used to gain even more of an advantage. Top Raiding guilds will not settle for an in game tracker if they can gain an advantage in two different areas of the game, especially if that in game tracker is not as comprehensive as they would like. Casual guilds who may want to use a tracker might skip out on 3rd party.. but not top tier raiders. You would also have to start adding in top tier PvP guilds that will do top tier raiding as well, because PvE feeds PvP, so they will get their PvP perk and a 3rd party tracker. That cannot make you happy, the fact that they can do the same content as you then also have an advantage in PvP?

The one good thing in all of this, is that IS has the "Want" to stop/limit them... and without the budget constraints of normal gaming developer, their ability to do such will be easier and with no complaints from shareholders to alter their course.

That has to be the weirdest feeling ever.. paying your monthly sub and purchasing in game cosmetics will be funding the very tools they use to cut down on trackers.

Dygz

Guild perks will be in, but combat trackers will not be supported.
Combat trackers will not be a guild perk.
And still the 1% raiders will be 1% raiders even without combat trackers being supported and cheaters being banned.

Noaani

Marcet wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

If content is easy enough to beat without a combat tracker, the content is too easy.

That is basically what it comes down to.

Words of someone utterly addicted to combat trackers. You can't even picture a world without them, do you?

Noaani wrote: »

Actually, they can go as far as making the content impossible to beat, but possible to beat with a combat tracker.

That is where that single digit percent should be.

What are you saying?? Is this for real? You reject so hard the idea of letting go of your precious combat trackers that you just have to say this kind of preposterous things?
This is very sad.

First not believing in the ability of the Intrepid team to make good and difficult bosses. And then comming up with ridiculous claims about only the 1% having to be with combat trackers?? In a game with combat trackers, of course, but not in a game without them! Like AOE.

So stop with the delirious claims and if you don't like the game, im sure there's plenty others for you.

What?

Let's go over this.

First of all, I never said 1%, I said single digit percent which is anything to to 9%. I specifically used this because this is the specific term Steven has used to indicate how hard he wants top end content to be - only a single digit percent of players will ever kill it.

Get your argument straight.

Next, I never said I had doubts in Intrepids ability to create good content. In fact, the thing that first attracted me to this game is the fact that they have the people that created some of the encounters that I have most enjoyed from any game.

"Faith" is believing a thing to be true in the absence of actual evidence. I have seen the content the team at Intrwpid aew able to create, so I do not need faith in their ability. I have knowledge of their ability, and knowledge beats faith.

The other thing I know is what content can be made in a situation where combat trackers are assumed to not be used, vs a situation where combat trackers are assumed to be used. GW2 is another great example of this - the initial launch of the game had content that was literally the most boring thing you could do in an MMO, and now it has actual, enjoyable, almost challenging content - in large part due to the developers knowing the players were using combat trackers.

Either argue against what I am actually saying, or stop arguing. Either way, stop making up fake points and claiming I am making them, then arguing them.

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

Top Raiding guilds will...

In every MMO I have played for more than a month that has top end PvE content, I have run a top end raiding guild.

I will thank you to not tell me what I will do, and instead suggest you shut the fuck up and listen to what I tell you I (and others in the same position as me) will so. This is a world you have no insight in to, and so should not be making claims like the above to anyone that is from that world.

A top end raid guild will put a lot at risk for a combat tracker - up to and including our accounts. This is because, without a combat tracker, top end raiding will not exist. There may be a hierachy of content, but the content at the highest point will be comparible to the content at the mid-point of a game with a combat tracker.

So, players that are not familiar with top end content will likely not even know that the game doesn't have an actual top end. Players familiar with top end content, however, will be playing a game with top end content.

So basically, we are fine putting our account at risk for a combat tracker, because without a combat tracker we don't really care about our account - or the game (this is why I am about the only top end raider still posting here, the rest stopped looking at this game when Steven said no trackers).

We may well play the game, but if trackers are assumed to not be a thing, and content is developed around that assumption, then the content will be boring and we really won't care if we lose our accounts.

Running a second or third party tracker is a risk. If it is used properly it is a small risk (essentially no risk). However, there are still risks, and the result of getting caught we would have to assume is the loss of your account. This would hold true even if Intrepid have a combat tracker built in to the game.

So, we would risk our account for a tracker (even if we don't really care about the game), but what perks would we risk our account to get in place of a tracker, if we opted to run a second or third party one?

The answer to that is basically nothing that isn't game breaking. It isn't worth the risk. Unless a perk is so powerful that literally everyone had to take it (an outright boost to all PvP combat, for example), then it straight up isn't worth it. Keep in mind, if the game has a combat tracker built in, and the content is developed with this in mind, we will care about our accounts, and about the game, and so will not want to risk those accounts.

To specifically address your point that PvP guilds would take the PvP perk and then run a third party tracker, due to raiding being a PvP thing in Ashes - this is actually a good point to bring up, as it is not one we have discussed. - though I have discussed it with many other people on the forums.

The basics of this come down to the simple fact that the open world raids you are talking about here are simply not the top end content that requires a combat tracker. They can't be - the kind of content that needs a tracker needs to be taken on in isolation (an instance is one option, but not the only option - and Intrepid have said they will instance off content when it makes sense to do so).

Encounters in the open world in games like Ashes (or L2, or Archeage, or BDO) are actually fairly easy encounters - if you are able to take them on with no other players around. The challenge associated with them comes from the PvP associated with them. I have seen 100+ people fail at killing an encounter that 11 of us that were present in the larger scale attempt have killed previously with that smaller number. This was due to that 100+ people having about 25 people opposing them and the 11 people having no one.

Now, to be clear (because people love to not pay attention to an entire argument), I am not saying these encounters should be taken out of the game - I have said many times that these encounters should make up 60%+ of the raid content in Ashes, and are where the singular best drops in the game should come from (hence top end raiders wanting to take them on). That kind of conflict is what Ashes is.

What I am saying is that these encounters are not the encounters that need combat trackers. These encounters are not the encounters that a single digit percent of the population will be able to kill - a statement that has been made about Intrepids intention for raid content in Ashes, and the point that my argument for a combat tracker being built in to the game is based on.

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