Dygz wrote: » Nope. It's the combat trackers that's pushing otherwise non-toxic players into toxicity. Otherwise, Steven would just go ahead and include the combat trackers because those players would be toxic anyways. It's kinda like when you can use e-mail to send a document rather than relying on snail mail. Suddenly, you want everything to be instantaneous, whereas before you were willing to wait days or even weeks.
rikardp98 wrote: » non-toxic players will not be pushed into toxicity because then they wouldn't be non-toxic players People that are toxic with dps meters will still be toxic, 100% of the time. People that is not toxic without dps meters are much more likely to not be toxic with them. And even if they would be toxic, then just don't play with them xD
Dygz wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » non-toxic players will not be pushed into toxicity because then they wouldn't be non-toxic players People that are toxic with dps meters will still be toxic, 100% of the time. People that is not toxic without dps meters are much more likely to not be toxic with them. And even if they would be toxic, then just don't play with them xD That is your assertion, but it is not convincing to me or to Steven. And Steven is the one you have to convince.
BlackBrony wrote: » Noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » Saedu wrote: » ALL of the good leaders use data to help make decisions. Yes, this is true. But if you read what @Noaani said, they want a Combat tracker because they want a harder challenged. I don't understand this. If you want something so complex that you need a Combat Tracker for it, then is not that complex, you're just assisting yourself. The more data you have, the more complex a problem you can solve. I assume this is a statement everyone agrees with. Now, based on that, the more data we have with combat in Ashes, the more complex encounters the developers are able to make for us. Now, the developers of an MMO are able to make content difficult enough for it to be impossible to kill - even with trackers. Based on this, the notion of actual difficulty is a pointless discussion in relation to trackers. However, what is worth discussing is how much more enjoyable a complex encounter is to take on than a simple encounter - and again, data is key to solving complexity. So, combat trackers = more complex encounters = more fun. Sure, sometimes we do talk about difficulty, but complexity is what we )or at least I) actually mean. The two do go somewhat hand in hand, however, Complex encounters will be harder than simple encounters, all other factors being the same. The reason calling them complex rather than difficult is more accurate is because all other factors need not be the same. However, it is that complexity that makes encounters fun, not raw difficulty. You could have an encounter that requires 100% perfect DPS and healing, but if that is all there is to it, you have a hard, simple, boring encounter. I find this explanation fascinating. I get your point, and it's completely fair that your ask for it. Allow me to apologize but I'm not as well versed as you're at writing. I'm paraphrasing here, but I get that raiders as you enjoy solving a complex problem. After all a raid is just that, a complex problem to be solved. But in this case you want this problem to be so complex that you require asistance from a tracker, aking as to a developer needing a programming language of high level to make the solution easier. You need this data, but you don't always need it. Just a sample, a couple of inputs, like a test data. After you have enough data, and you have found the solution, this data is not necessary anymore, because your problem is solved and you have found the solution to it. And you know it will work despite what test case you throw at it. So, once you have solved this issue, all of these information will be available for others, so other people might be able to work on this complex problem but basically without all the thinking, because it was done by you. And I think that's cool, but what happens to less complex problems? Raiders will take the same approach, using tracker. So, this less complex problem will be shreaded to pieces and all the info is again available to others. Doesn't this make the less complex problems that don't require tracker now "stupid" problems? I kinda feel like it will water down other content because raiders already found out the most efficient solution. Maybe I'm just rambling, I don't know. EDIT = what I mean on last point, is that if you have found the optimal approach, there's no point in others (except for the lolz) to try a different approach if there's one already. So, this content becomes just a cookie cutter scenario with no investigation, problem solving, because raiders did it already.
Noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » Saedu wrote: » ALL of the good leaders use data to help make decisions. Yes, this is true. But if you read what @Noaani said, they want a Combat tracker because they want a harder challenged. I don't understand this. If you want something so complex that you need a Combat Tracker for it, then is not that complex, you're just assisting yourself. The more data you have, the more complex a problem you can solve. I assume this is a statement everyone agrees with. Now, based on that, the more data we have with combat in Ashes, the more complex encounters the developers are able to make for us. Now, the developers of an MMO are able to make content difficult enough for it to be impossible to kill - even with trackers. Based on this, the notion of actual difficulty is a pointless discussion in relation to trackers. However, what is worth discussing is how much more enjoyable a complex encounter is to take on than a simple encounter - and again, data is key to solving complexity. So, combat trackers = more complex encounters = more fun. Sure, sometimes we do talk about difficulty, but complexity is what we )or at least I) actually mean. The two do go somewhat hand in hand, however, Complex encounters will be harder than simple encounters, all other factors being the same. The reason calling them complex rather than difficult is more accurate is because all other factors need not be the same. However, it is that complexity that makes encounters fun, not raw difficulty. You could have an encounter that requires 100% perfect DPS and healing, but if that is all there is to it, you have a hard, simple, boring encounter.
BlackBrony wrote: » Saedu wrote: » ALL of the good leaders use data to help make decisions. Yes, this is true. But if you read what @Noaani said, they want a Combat tracker because they want a harder challenged. I don't understand this. If you want something so complex that you need a Combat Tracker for it, then is not that complex, you're just assisting yourself.
Saedu wrote: » ALL of the good leaders use data to help make decisions.
Neurath wrote: » raid leaders should lead the raid with foresight, experience and dedication.
Noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » Noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » Saedu wrote: » ALL of the good leaders use data to help make decisions. Yes, this is true. But if you read what @Noaani said, they want a Combat tracker because they want a harder challenged. I don't understand this. If you want something so complex that you need a Combat Tracker for it, then is not that complex, you're just assisting yourself. The more data you have, the more complex a problem you can solve. I assume this is a statement everyone agrees with. Now, based on that, the more data we have with combat in Ashes, the more complex encounters the developers are able to make for us. Now, the developers of an MMO are able to make content difficult enough for it to be impossible to kill - even with trackers. Based on this, the notion of actual difficulty is a pointless discussion in relation to trackers. However, what is worth discussing is how much more enjoyable a complex encounter is to take on than a simple encounter - and again, data is key to solving complexity. So, combat trackers = more complex encounters = more fun. Sure, sometimes we do talk about difficulty, but complexity is what we )or at least I) actually mean. The two do go somewhat hand in hand, however, Complex encounters will be harder than simple encounters, all other factors being the same. The reason calling them complex rather than difficult is more accurate is because all other factors need not be the same. However, it is that complexity that makes encounters fun, not raw difficulty. You could have an encounter that requires 100% perfect DPS and healing, but if that is all there is to it, you have a hard, simple, boring encounter. I find this explanation fascinating. I get your point, and it's completely fair that your ask for it. Allow me to apologize but I'm not as well versed as you're at writing. I'm paraphrasing here, but I get that raiders as you enjoy solving a complex problem. After all a raid is just that, a complex problem to be solved. But in this case you want this problem to be so complex that you require asistance from a tracker, aking as to a developer needing a programming language of high level to make the solution easier. You need this data, but you don't always need it. Just a sample, a couple of inputs, like a test data. After you have enough data, and you have found the solution, this data is not necessary anymore, because your problem is solved and you have found the solution to it. And you know it will work despite what test case you throw at it. So, once you have solved this issue, all of these information will be available for others, so other people might be able to work on this complex problem but basically without all the thinking, because it was done by you. And I think that's cool, but what happens to less complex problems? Raiders will take the same approach, using tracker. So, this less complex problem will be shreaded to pieces and all the info is again available to others. Doesn't this make the less complex problems that don't require tracker now "stupid" problems? I kinda feel like it will water down other content because raiders already found out the most efficient solution. Maybe I'm just rambling, I don't know. EDIT = what I mean on last point, is that if you have found the optimal approach, there's no point in others (except for the lolz) to try a different approach if there's one already. So, this content becomes just a cookie cutter scenario with no investigation, problem solving, because raiders did it already. To me, Ashes will be more like EQ2 than WoW in this respect. Why would I want to assist your guild in beating my guild to an open world raid mob?.
McMackMuck wrote: » No DPS. With RL sports teams the principle assessment of the players is by the coach watching them play. Metrics enter use wayyyy down the line when the player performance is worth lots of money to the team. If your PvP/PvE team is genuinely that focused then you can derive methods of generating metrics by having trusted players monitor the PvP/PvE team performance in "practice" sessions, arranged against the 'B' Team or against expected easy raid content. Using video playback the coaches can critique individuals actions at key points and suggest alternative approaches to try next time. If the team wants to improve then an open discussion on the best use of abilities and tactics shouldn't be an issue.
BlackBrony wrote: » Thanks for such detailed reply!
Dygz wrote: » What should happen and what does happen most of the time is not necessarily the same thing. People can risk using the meter anyway. Just as some professional athletes risk using illegal steroids.
Tragnar wrote: » completely misguided allegory meters are just like sports metrics of the athletes achievements and his performance illegal steroids is input software that plays either partially or even fully instead of you
Dygz wrote: » It's not misguided. Steroids are banned from professional sports and DPS meters are banned from Ashes of Creation. If you want to risk thwarting the bans, you get to take the risk. If you get caught, you deal with the consequences.
Dygz wrote: » Tragnar wrote: » completely misguided allegory meters are just like sports metrics of the athletes achievements and his performance illegal steroids is input software that plays either partially or even fully instead of you It's not misguided. Steroids are banned from professional sports and DPS meters are banned from Ashes of Creation. If you want to risk thwarting the bans, you get to take the risk. If you get caught, you deal with the consequences.
Littlekenny21 wrote: » Without a combat tracker, straying from the meta will mean you would be equally as likely to be kicked as if you had low dps with a combat tracker, even if your DPS is high in your off meta build. In both scenarios you will only get kicked if the leader is toxic. I believe that without a combat tracker, people are more likely to be meta slaves as there is no way to justify your off meta build to toxic people (who also exist without trackers). Personally, I only want a tracker to optimise what abilities I use when and as long as damage number are put somewhere like a chat window, there are ways to show the DPS realtime.
