Will the (Summoner) Brood Warden be able to off tank end game? Should it?

I've always been drawn to the support-ish roles in MMOs, tanks, healers, buffs, CC etc. Being that summoner is considered a support class, it's the class that I'm drawn to the most as of right now as it's different that anything I have played before. With the information out there so far, it is said that the Summoner can have up to 3 pets out, and in some cases 1 super powerful pet.

It has also been stated that the primary tank archtype will be the end game main tank, but is it possible to have a Brood Warden off tank? With the idea that the secondary tank archtype would have defensive augments for the pets, can or should they be able to off tank with their pet come end game?

I get that the the tank will be the primary, but it seems reasonable that a specific pet tank based pet class should at least be able to do SOME end game tanking limited to off tanking specifically. Am I right? It wouldn't take away from the actual tanks but It would fulfill the need for some players like myself to be useful in end game with a pet class to a niche degree. I think it would go a long way for what options are available for the games content.

If not end game content, would this specific mix of archtypes be able to main tank dungeons? Or will the pet class be forever subjected to just simple experience grinding in mmos? I'm thinking of the pet classes from back in DAOC for example. Always an exp grinder/alt leveler.

What does the community think? I feel like the tanking spec summoner has this concern, as a healing offspec summoner will always be useful since spot healing goes a long way for the mana effiency for the main healers and DPS is always useful.

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Sathrago

Zeshio wrote: »

Just theorycrafting, but could be good for off-tanking or tanking multiple weaker mobs in smaller groups. Say if you don't have another tank style class, could help to have an extra body or two to take blows. As long as the summons have the HP to take it.

This is an interesting point that could potentially be a solution.

Instead of there being primary tanks and less-good tanks, why not Single Target tanks and multi-target tanks? The idea for this would be that the single target tanks are able to take on massive hits with well timed defensives allowing them to dance on the point of a knife with extremely powerful singular enemies. Then you have Multi-target tanks, those that can mitigate sustained damage over a long period of time with auras, debuffs, and other abilities. They would be the defense against a death by a thousand cuts, while the single target tanks focus on blocking body-shattering blows.

In relation to the original post, I could see a Brood Warden being a Multi-target tank. One perfect ability for this would be a debuff aura of tiny insects that harrier and annoy the crap out of enemies within, reducing the damage they deal by a small amount or giving them a chance to do glancing blows with their attacks. Maybe his primary tank pet is a brood mother that can cast out a cone of broodlings that latch on to foes, draining life from them and returning it to the brood mother. There are plenty of cool things that you could do with this multi-target tank style in mind.

So, the reasoning for a potential split between single target tanks and multi target tanks is to reduce the fixation on one particular class being the best at tanking. Sure there will still be those that argue about who's the best at each role, but this approach alleviates the need to balance ALL tanks for ALL tanking scenarios. Things are taken an additional step further if you add in dodge tanks vs block tanks vs health tanks vs kiting tanks vs resist tanks.

Basically if players are allowed to choose more than TANK role, and instead between multiple types of tank roles, I believe this will keep things more balanced and less "min-maxy".

Dygz

Sathrago wrote: »

Basically if players are allowed to choose more than TANK role, and instead between multiple types of tank roles, I believe this will keep things more balanced and less "min-maxy".

If I understood what you meant correctly, that is basically accomplished by the 8 classes with Tank as the primary archetype.

Brood Wardens might be able to have their tanking Summons on multiple targets, sure.

Sathrago

Dygz wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

Basically if players are allowed to choose more than TANK role, and instead between multiple types of tank roles, I believe this will keep things more balanced and less "min-maxy".

If I understood what you meant correctly, that is basically accomplished by the 8 classes with Tank as the primary archetype.

Brood Wardens might be able to have their tanking Summons on multiple targets, sure.

We can't say for sure, as they might go about it attempting to let all tank archetype classes fully tank while allowing choice of gear and talents let you specialize in different types of tanking. I think the worst thing they could do is try to make all the tank archetypes, even if they are primaries, full on all purpose tanks.

Noaani

Sathrago wrote: »

Zeshio wrote: »

Just theorycrafting, but could be good for off-tanking or tanking multiple weaker mobs in smaller groups. Say if you don't have another tank style class, could help to have an extra body or two to take blows. As long as the summons have the HP to take it.

This is an interesting point that could potentially be a solution.

Instead of there being primary tanks and less-good tanks, why not Single Target tanks and multi-target tanks?

I agree with Dygz's post above.

This is something I would expect the developers to take in to consideration with the classes that have tank as their primary.

Of the 8 tank/* classes, I expect one to excel at single target, four of them to excel at different combinations of single target or AE with physical or magical primary damage, I expect one to be avoidance based, I expect one to be able to function to some degree without a healer/* present in the group, I expect one to be able to function from a distance, and I am unsure what I expect tank/bard to be at this point.

With 8 primary tank classes that all need to have a place to shine, they are already kind of stretching things a little too thin imo. They can't start trying to make a 9th class have it's own specific niche along the same lines.

Dygz

Sathrago wrote: »

We can't say for sure, as they might go about it attempting to let all tank archetype classes fully tank while allowing choice of gear and talents let you specialize in different types of tanking. I think the worst thing they could do is try to make all the tank archetypes, even if they are primaries, full on all purpose tanks.

All 8 classes of the Tank Primary Archetype will be viable main tanks at endgame. That is the current design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnoHtzaQeMs&t=3071s

Kalv1441

Noaani wrote: »

My main question to the OP would be this;

Why would anyone want to raid in a guild that is using a summoner as an off tank in top end content?

If my guild is not able to use the proper class for the task, then we aren't attempting that task. I am not going to waste 40 peoples time trying to do something with sub-optimal classes, and I wouldn't waste my time with a guild that would think this is an ok thing to do.

I think you bring a valid point that surrounds viability which targets my second question of my OP.

At the end of the day, if something is not viable it should not be forced in end game content for the many reasons you’ve explained throughout the thread.

We won’t know until we get more information but since this is mild theory crafting I think the viability will depend on if the Brood Warden, based on augments, will have competitive tanking cooldowns comparable to a primary tank. I don’t think they’ll have an equal number of tools as a primary tank but if they have enough to be viable than it’s an option. That is something that can be easily measured because eventually we can literally just compare abilities or passives with each other and see if it keeps up.

They’ve stated multiple times they don’t believe in addons like damage meters so measuring % probably won’t be a thing either. It will just come down to whether classes have the tools to do their job and the skill behind the players. It’s possible to have a tank class with a subpar player controlling it be outperformed by a tank summoner who might have a few leas tools but makes up for it in skill.

As to your questions as to why a guild would bring a tank summoner to a raid? Well, for starters not enough tanks on raid day or tanks can’t make it for some reason. if proven to be viable because maybe the summoner player has proven themselves, that’s why the summoner worked hard to show his skill and it accomplishes the game fantasy of the role they chose to help fill that role.

Summoner DPS or heal will always be useful in end game content. I just want to see the tank get some love. Most likely they’ll be able to do group content viably but I can hope for some viability in end game content. Most games don’t have summoner tanking viable passes leveling or farming.

Kalv1441

Sathrago wrote: »

Zeshio wrote: »

Just theorycrafting, but could be good for off-tanking or tanking multiple weaker mobs in smaller groups. Say if you don't have another tank style class, could help to have an extra body or two to take blows. As long as the summons have the HP to take it.

This is an interesting point that could potentially be a solution.

Instead of there being primary tanks and less-good tanks, why not Single Target tanks and multi-target tanks? The idea for this would be that the single target tanks are able to take on massive hits with well timed defensives allowing them to dance on the point of a knife with extremely powerful singular enemies. Then you have Multi-target tanks, those that can mitigate sustained damage over a long period of time with auras, debuffs, and other abilities. They would be the defense against a death by a thousand cuts, while the single target tanks focus on blocking body-shattering blows.

In relation to the original post, I could see a Brood Warden being a Multi-target tank. One perfect ability for this would be a debuff aura of tiny insects that harrier and annoy the crap out of enemies within, reducing the damage they deal by a small amount or giving them a chance to do glancing blows with their attacks. Maybe his primary tank pet is a brood mother that can cast out a cone of broodlings that latch on to foes, draining life from them and returning it to the brood mother. There are plenty of cool things that you could do with this multi-target tank style in mind.

So, the reasoning for a potential split between single target tanks and multi target tanks is to reduce the fixation on one particular class being the best at tanking. Sure there will still be those that argue about who's the best at each role, but this approach alleviates the need to balance ALL tanks for ALL tanking scenarios. Things are taken an additional step further if you add in dodge tanks vs block tanks vs health tanks vs kiting tanks vs resist tanks.

Basically if players are allowed to choose more than TANK role, and instead between multiple types of tank roles, I believe this will keep things more balanced and less "min-maxy".

These are some great ideas 😎

Dygz

Kalv1441 wrote: »

We won’t know until we get more information but since this is mild theory crafting I think the viability will depend on if the Brood Warden, based on augments, will have competitive tanking cooldowns comparable to a primary tank. I don’t think they’ll have an equal number of tools as a primary tank but if they have enough to be viable than it’s an option. That is something that can be easily measured because eventually we can literally just compare abilities or passives with each other and see if it keeps up.

All 8 classes of Summoner will be viable at end game. What Noaan's guild will do is irrelevant.
(And is baseless bravado in any case)

Kalv1441 wrote: »

As to your questions as to why a guild would bring a tank summoner to a raid? Well, for starters not enough tanks on raid day or tanks can’t make it for some reason. if proven to be viable because maybe the summoner player has proven themselves, that’s why the summoner worked hard to show his skill and it accomplishes the game fantasy of the role they chose to help fill that role.

Secondary Archetypes are not designed to fill Primary Archetype roles.
So...Summoner/Tank is not going to be on par with a Tank/Summoner.
Tank/Summoner can replace a Tank/Tank as main tank.
Summoner/Tank cannot replace a Tank/Summoner as main tank.

Kalv1441 wrote: »

Summoner DPS or heal will always be useful in end game content. I just want to see the tank get some love. Most likely they’ll be able to do group content viably but I can hope for some viability in end game content. Most games don’t have summoner tanking viable passes leveling or farming.

As long as a Summoner/Tank can fulfill the Summoner role, they will get some love.

Kalv1441

Dygz wrote: »

Secondary Archetypes are not designed to fill Primary Archetype roles.
So...Summoner/Tank is not going to be on par with a Tank/Summoner.
Tank/Summoner can replace a Tank/Tank as main tank.
Summoner/Tank cannot replace a Tank/Summoner as main tank.

I don’t believe the Summoner/Tank will ever be able to fill in the main tank role in end game content. The whole OP was just to speculate whether they’ll ever be viable as an off tank in certain instances if they went Brood Warden. I just haven’t seen tank focused summoners thrive in other games in the end game. Just curious to see what they’ll look like when all the info is out there.

The Brood Warden could have a tank support play style giving tanks or group members survival buffs, maybe they can summon a giant tank pet that allows them to off tank to some capacity or maybe have a swarm of smaller pets that mitigate damage. Or they’ll just fall under the same tropes of other games where they’re only really useful as a farming class in some open world areas or a leveling bot. I pray for the former ideas than the latter.

Songcaller

Druid can be a valuable tank in WoW. Mesmer can be a valuable 'tank' in GW2. I put it in tags because GW2 could change the classes around and make a new tank class. The holy trinity is more fluid in GW2. From what I've learnt, a summoner can spawn a Tank Pet, DPS Pet and a Heal Pet. There is nothing to say the Tank Pets can't cycle aggro, if the summoner can also drop aggro at the same time then you'd have a situation of a Dark Templar in Age of Conan.

The main issue I see at present is the lack of goads/taunts. The Tank Main must be the tank because the skills all have threat generation in the moves (all except one move at level 10). It means that other classes won't be able to surpass a Tank Main in threat generation unless you gimp yourself on Gems (Choosing threat gems instead of DPS or some other Gems).

In my mind, if you can tank group content, you can tank any content. I know so little about Summoner right now that I can't be certain of anything but if a Summoner can act like a Feral Druid then the Summoner would be a good tank. Someone else stated there is already 8 Tank Classes though so do we really need more than 8 Tank classes and would someone who wants to tank take a different class than a Tank Main and flavour class?

I don't often theory craft with such little information available. I also don't feel confident that we can cycle aggro between Tank Mains let alone Tank Pets. It comes down to threat tables and player skill. Without a goad or taunt then threat tables become rather limited without the ability to cycle aggro.

Dygz

Brood Warden should be fun for Summoners who want to off-tank.
They can choose a tank-type Summons and they can add tank augments on top of that.

Nagash

Summoners are the best at everything and I will hear nothing else

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