More Player Races?

What do you guys think about more player races?

I understand that in Ashes, a new race is a lot of work, from the model itself to the specific looks of nodes and even items that change depending on the race.

However, I do think its worth it, considering Ashes has a high-fantasy setting, they can work just fine.

I don't think it should be a priority and I do think that for launch, the 9 are enough. Maybe with expansions and such, adding more races (and the ability to change our race somehow)

For example, I am quite fond of the Leonin race, love the aesthetic. But there are other examples, just google "DnD races" and you will find a lot that could fit (and plenty that won't)

What does everyone else think?

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Vhaeyne

@Schmuky

If at any point there is a racial augment that is better than another races, and people pay to switch to that race for the augment. The game becomes pay to win.

From the Kickstarter:

In keeping with our theme of Consequence, and unlike other games, race won’t just be a matter of look, with relatively inconsequential abilities tacked on. Instead they integrate deeply into our class system, augmenting and changing the basic chassis provided by our eight core archetypes. Our goal here is to create a system where an elven fighter feels different, but serves the same role as a dwarven fighter.

Races may be cosmetic is some games, but they are not cosmetic in every game. They are not planned to be cosmetic in Ashes:

Schmuky

Vhaeyne wrote: »

@Schmuky

If at any point there is a racial augment that is better than another races, and people pay to switch to that race for the augment. The game becomes pay to win.

From the Kickstarter:

In keeping with our theme of Consequence, and unlike other games, race won’t just be a matter of look, with relatively inconsequential abilities tacked on. Instead they integrate deeply into our class system, augmenting and changing the basic chassis provided by our eight core archetypes. Our goal here is to create a system where an elven fighter feels different, but serves the same role as a dwarven fighter.

Races may be cosmetic is some games, but they are not cosmetic in every game. They are not planned to be cosmetic in Ashes:

I get what you mean, races will have their unique traits. But as long as they are balanced, it dosen't matter, right? Currently, would you say elves are better than dwarfs for example?

Any new race added to the game would need to be balanced to the others and if they aren't, then that race becomes OP and the problem isn't race change, but rather the race itself. If the race is balanced, what dose it matter if we can change it?

Vhaeyne

Schmuky wrote: »

I get what you mean, races will have their unique traits. But as long as they are balanced, it dosen't matter, right? Currently, would you say elves are better than dwarfs for example?

Any new race added to the game would need to be balanced to the others and if they aren't, then that race becomes OP and the problem isn't race change, but rather the race itself. If the race is balanced, what dose it matter if we can change it?

For the longest time there was no high-end alliance raiding scene in WOW because Orcs racial was so good. In order to be taken seriously as a raider you would have to play horde at a minimum. I don't know that it is possible to have interesting racials and total balance. Something always comes out a head.

Recently in Shadowlands Blizzard told us not to worry about covenants. Everything is going to be so well-balanced that you will just get to choose the covenant you like... Fast-forward to week two of the x-pack and the meta was already so set in stone that both a covenant and a legendary was "mandatory" per spec.
If Blizzard sold a covenant change, they would have made bank.

I am not saying that Ashes will for sure be as bad as WOW. I am just saying that the chances are some racial augments will come out ahead. When you can pay to switch a bad race for a good race. The game becomes pay to win. Odds are Intrepid will end up in a never-ending game of "nurf this, buff that" when it comes to racial augments. Combined with a race change that is a never-ending stream of reliable microtransactions.

I just don't want that to be the fate of the game.

McMackMuck

IMO.
Yes, additional races would be cool and I don't want to be negative towards good creative ideas....
..... but it is a distraction from getting the core game released simply because it is outside the current scope of work.

There is soooo much content that isn't resolved for the core game and, as I see it, that content is a more worthwhile use of the communities discussion time because it can potentially assist the developers, resulting in a better game.
This is where my focus will be.

To not lose good ideas, maybe we need a section labelled "2025" for content ideas outside the current scope of work and beyond the release date?

Dygz

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I would hate for the introduction of new races to come with them entertaining the idea of level boosts or race changes. These things would cause me to go from supporting Ashes to denouncing it quickly.

New races could make the balance of racial augments get out of hand. Personally, I like a slightly unbalanced meta, but I could see them leaning into attempting hyper-sterilization and making the game uninteresting. Oddly, I have seen games get worst about this as they add more complexity. Games that were okay with a little unbalance with a handful of races become obsessed with balance as they add more races.

I think it's unlikely that the devs will allow for race changes because of the way Node NPCs are tied to the participation of the highest racial population. We should not be able to force the change of racial type for a node simply by having a bunch of people change race while keeping their current levels.

Schmuky

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Recently in Shadowlands Blizzard told us not to worry about covenants. Everything is going to be so well-balanced that you will just get to choose the covenant you like... Fast-forward to week two of the x-pack and the meta was already so set in stone that both a covenant and a legendary was "mandatory" per spec.
If Blizzard sold a covenant change, they would have made bank.

I am not saying that Ashes will for sure be as bad as WOW. I am just saying that the chances are some racial augments will come out ahead. When you can pay to switch a bad race for a good race. The game becomes pay to win. Odds are Intrepid will end up in a never-ending game of "nurf this, buff that" when it comes to racial augments. Combined with a race change that is a never-ending stream of reliable microtransactions.

Haven't played WoW so i don't know, but if it that bad, what is stopping players from making a new character?
I do get your point, some races usually take the lead, but I do think it matters how much of a difference there is.
I don't think that the bonus have been announced, but the example was "a dwarf fighter will be different than an elf fighter but both will be good".
What i understand from this is something like elfs might have a bit higher attack speed for example and dwarfs maybe a bit higher damage per hit, and in the end the DPS is the same.
Sure, they are different, but when the math is done it didn't matter if you are dwarf or elf. That sort of balance lets each race feel and play unique and at the same time be balanced. And i hope this type of system gets put in the game

McMackMuck wrote: »

IMO.
Yes, additional races would be cool and I don't want to be negative towards good creative ideas....
..... but it is a distraction from getting the core game released simply because it is outside the current scope of work.

There is soooo much content that isn't resolved for the core game and, as I see it, that content is a more worthwhile use of the communities discussion time because it can potentially assist the developers, resulting in a better game.
This is where my focus will be.

To not lose good ideas, maybe we need a section labelled "2025" for content ideas outside the current scope of work and beyond the release date?

This started as a more of "what other races would you like to see longterm?" but yea, a 2025 section might work better:))

Dygz wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I would hate for the introduction of new races to come with them entertaining the idea of level boosts or race changes. These things would cause me to go from supporting Ashes to denouncing it quickly.

New races could make the balance of racial augments get out of hand. Personally, I like a slightly unbalanced meta, but I could see them leaning into attempting hyper-sterilization and making the game uninteresting. Oddly, I have seen games get worst about this as they add more complexity. Games that were okay with a little unbalance with a handful of races become obsessed with balance as they add more races.

I think it's unlikely that the devs will allow for race changes because of the way Node NPCs are tied to the participation of the highest racial population. We should not be able to force the change of racial type for a node simply by having a bunch of people change race while keeping their current levels.

Maybe i understood this wrong, but by my understanding, the aesthetic of the Node will change based on what race put most exp into the node between level-ups. But it was an aesthetic function. Each race can go and be part of any node, and take quests the same way.

Being forced to go to dwarf nodes if you are a dwarf kinda ruins the whole nodes idea

Noaani

Schmuky wrote: »

Maybe i understood this wrong, but by my understanding, the aesthetic of the Node will change based on what race put most exp into the node between level-ups. But it was an aesthetic function. Each race can go and be part of any node, and take quests the same way.

Being forced to go to dwarf nodes if you are a dwarf kinda ruins the whole nodes idea

Your understanding is fairly spot on.

The poster you replied to is confusing what he wants racial node influence to be with what we have been told it will be.

There will be a few quest givers that offer a specific version of a quest to players of the correct race, but Steven has specifically said players will not miss out on content (things to kill, items, builds, etc) if there are no nodes of their own race.

So, maybe you'll save a few minutes on a quest if your race happens to be the majority influence on your node - but other than that it is cosmetic.

Gimlog

Well guys go ask directly to Steven in the next Dev update , if he has in his mind a way to introduce new race later on or not.

Vhaeyne

Schmuky wrote: »

Haven't played WoW so i don't know, but if it that bad, what is stopping players from making a new character?
I do get your point, some races usually take the lead, but I do think it matters how much of a difference there is.
I don't think that the bonus have been announced, but the example was "a dwarf fighter will be different than an elf fighter but both will be good".
What i understand from this is something like elfs might have a bit higher attack speed for example and dwarfs maybe a bit higher damage per hit, and in the end the DPS is the same.
Sure, they are different, but when the math is done it didn't matter if you are dwarf or elf. That sort of balance lets each race feel and play unique and at the same time be balanced. And i hope this type of system gets put in the game

Making a new character is fine because it is still a time and energy investment to level up a new character. You still have to establish name recognition of the new character among your peers. There are many possible reasons why you would not want to allow race changes. Here you can see the DEVs not wanting to open the can of worms as part of a short Q&A on the topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-fU0DJL7wY&t=4544s

There is just so much to consider with a game this complex that they don't seem to want to touch race changes, and I think that is the right move. Jeff brought up a possible system where you could look like one race and have the states of another. If that was something you could earn in game over time I would be all for that. They don't seem to want to do that, though.

There is always this quote too:

Your primary archetype selection and your race selection should be - because they have gameplay influences - should be final.[66] – Steven Sharif

In the example you gave the dwarf and elf doing the same damage is both the goal and the dream, but it is not so easily obtained or maintained. I always hope they can get close, but a meta in a complex MMORPG is inevitable. Games like FFXIV try to avoid metas by taking character builds out of the game. To me that is a awful way to address the issue and still fails to solve the issue of some jobs being overpowered.

I don't think there will be an answer that satisfies everyone on this, but to me, not allowing race changes seems to prevent a lot of potential abuse.

Merek

If one of the current races doesn't appeal to you, wait until the Tulnar are revealed and if that still isn't enough, maybe AoC isn't for you?

RocketFarmer

I happen to think that the Tulnar provides the means to introduce a range of race options not covered by the big four.

Inputs on other potential race options may be something to provide for the Tulnar for potential future updates. I don’t think anyone needs to wait to state their opinion on what they would like to see, but should have no expectations that their desires will be implemented any time soon.

That said, I find that when the focus of a game is on exotic races, there is usually something lacking. Whether that be the game play, content, etc. Or someone is trying to gain an advantage (using Pathfinder as an example where min-maxing via racial selection occurs frequently).

Nerror

I wouldn't mind having dwarves added. We have humans, elves, gnomes, orcs and tulnar. Dwarves would fit right in.

But honestly, a new race should be something quite different, and the best race I can think of would be something like Leshy. Plant-people. They, like Tulnar, come in different forms, like Fungus Leshy, Gourd Leshy, Seaweed Leshy etc. and they 1. could really match the current world in Verra, and 2. are different and interesting enough to not just be another common humanoid. I think they would be great expansion material alongside a whole new storyline.

Conrad

I think, the only reasonable addition would be an Avian race, since tulnar won't cover those ones... or avian like

I know that this race already exists elsewhere, but a fine example are the turians. They are viviparous avian humanoids. Now, obviously I bet there is no way we will get turian like avian race but an example is an example.... (tho, having them have a very similar face probably wouldn't hurt? 🤔🤣)

Schmuky

Merek wrote: »

If one of the current races doesn't appeal to you, wait until the Tulnar are revealed and if that still isn't enough, maybe AoC isn't for you?

Its not that important, again, considering how i play races tend to be cosmetic more than anything else. Which is why i maybe don't get why people have such a strong negative feeling for race changing.

I don't play the game for the races, it's everything else i like about the concept of Ashes. And if they do add a new race and you can make a new character with that race, then all the worries about balance are kinda void, as the race would already be in the game.

The only danger I can see is that if one of the races they add becomes more popular, the others wouldn't have that much of a presence anymore. But that is true even now, with the 9 we have. Let's be honest, it won't be a even split. Some servers will have more humans, some more elves, depends on what the players want.

But we will see what happens

Nagash

well I have been asking for skele boys and girls for about 4 years so get in line

ThexBlackxKnight

Nagash wrote: »

well I have been asking for skele boys and girls for about 4 years so get in line

Maybe there will be a Lich racial skin like the Demon/Angel one day.

Nagash

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

well I have been asking for skele boys and girls for about 4 years so get in line

Maybe there will be a Lich racial skin like the Demon/Angel one day.

I can hope ^^

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