Vhaeyne wrote: » Trax wrote: » Perspective again. Ashes is pretty low to moderate stakes compared to say, Darkfall Online or Mortal Online. Both did just fine without meters. You learn to know who’s pulling their weight and who’s not, if that’s all you care about in your teammates. Very true! Which is why I always said if Ashes is just going to be open world raid piñatas to fight over then DPS meters won't be very useful. Which to me is what the game looks like it is going to be. Still, many are hopeful that good PvE will exist. I have just been extremely skeptical about good PvE. No DEV is going to tell you their PvE is not going to be good.
Trax wrote: » Perspective again. Ashes is pretty low to moderate stakes compared to say, Darkfall Online or Mortal Online. Both did just fine without meters. You learn to know who’s pulling their weight and who’s not, if that’s all you care about in your teammates.
Recluse74 wrote: » You do not have a decision on who to take to a Node Siege... Every citizen has a right to be there, no matter their Level, Armor, Weapons, DPS min/max ... whatever you want to name... You are already assuming the use the DPS meters will determine who gets to fight for a node or not, which is the toxic mindset Steven is trying to avoid... even though your example is not how the game is actually played.
Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool. Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again... I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B. You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist. Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess. Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours? Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team. I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress. If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix. Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as todays generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.@Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game. Bruh how old do you think I am? The majority of AoC's fanbase lived at a time when things were not always instant.As for the spreadsheets...you should look at bodybuilding throughout the years. Humans have always been min-maxers and this was even true all the way back in the old school games like Gaia. Also, no one is asking for third party addons we're asking for intrepid to give us their own DPS meter in game so when I hit a dummy over the course of 30 seconds I have an idea of what my performance was which is no different than working out at the gym and logging it. This is the issue right here.... This is not body building, and this is not Gaia... This is AoC, and Intrepid has said... "no meters". But yet here are the meter loving crew to try and bring what they loved from their last games to a new game, instead of just accepting the new game does not want to go that route. I get that you are desperate for a good and new MMO like the rest of us... But you cannot force mechanics into a game that are not wanted by the developing team. There are mechanics not included in this game that I loved from past MMOs... but I am not in here screaming to get them added. I just take the game the way it is intended to be played and soldier on, or find a different game that has what I like. EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them. I'm not "screaming" to get them added either. I think meters in a very specific location on appropriately leveled nodes is a very minor request to allow people who do want them to not feel like we're getting completely shafted. If the game doesn't have them it's fine but when someone says it's b/c of toxicity I'll point out how I disagree same if someone says it'll unfairly benefit PvE more than PvP. It's not like I've not been on your side of the argument...I deeply don't want Arena ladders yet we seem to be getting them. You keep saying they help out in PvP... they do not. They may help you gain confidence in PvP or against practice targets, but when the real PvP starts, they are worthless.... Unless you plan on standing outside of the main PvP fights and trying to just 1 v 1 every straggler that runs by. ... I can run around on a level 10 character in mass PvP, and so long as I do not get AoE'd and die ... I can due 1 dmg to targets and they will die just as fast due to the other 5+ level cap players that are burning them down. How do I know this? I did it Lineage 2... I ran around on a level 10 character at a castle siege because my main had Karma (Corruption) and I did not want to bring him to a siege just to lose gear. I died quite a few times, but I was there spamming my attack button and doing a small amount of damage to anything getting close.... and we captured the castle. It is not the individual DPS that wins fights, it is the collective. Obviously if I was on my main, those targets would have died .01% faster, but that is negligible. The only thing that would hurt your chances, is if a majority of your Army is too low level and doing very low damage. So you can get away with lower DPS in these instances, so long as a vast majority is doing damage close to or equal to the opponents. Where as in Raids, everyone has to meet general requirements to beat the encounter. Getting shafted is when things are unfair... there is nothing unfair about every player, playing the game on equal ground. The only thing you see as unfair, is that you do not get to play the game, the way you want. And you can not use the argument that, if they put DPS meters in the game everyone will be on equal ground either. Because not everyone wants to use them, and they sure as hell dont want to be forced to use them to compete.
Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool. Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again... I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B. You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist. Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess. Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours? Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team. I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress. If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix. Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as todays generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.@Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game. Bruh how old do you think I am? The majority of AoC's fanbase lived at a time when things were not always instant.As for the spreadsheets...you should look at bodybuilding throughout the years. Humans have always been min-maxers and this was even true all the way back in the old school games like Gaia. Also, no one is asking for third party addons we're asking for intrepid to give us their own DPS meter in game so when I hit a dummy over the course of 30 seconds I have an idea of what my performance was which is no different than working out at the gym and logging it. This is the issue right here.... This is not body building, and this is not Gaia... This is AoC, and Intrepid has said... "no meters". But yet here are the meter loving crew to try and bring what they loved from their last games to a new game, instead of just accepting the new game does not want to go that route. I get that you are desperate for a good and new MMO like the rest of us... But you cannot force mechanics into a game that are not wanted by the developing team. There are mechanics not included in this game that I loved from past MMOs... but I am not in here screaming to get them added. I just take the game the way it is intended to be played and soldier on, or find a different game that has what I like. EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them. I'm not "screaming" to get them added either. I think meters in a very specific location on appropriately leveled nodes is a very minor request to allow people who do want them to not feel like we're getting completely shafted. If the game doesn't have them it's fine but when someone says it's b/c of toxicity I'll point out how I disagree same if someone says it'll unfairly benefit PvE more than PvP. It's not like I've not been on your side of the argument...I deeply don't want Arena ladders yet we seem to be getting them.
Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool. Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again... I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B. You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist. Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess. Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours? Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team. I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress. If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix. Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as todays generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.@Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game. Bruh how old do you think I am? The majority of AoC's fanbase lived at a time when things were not always instant.As for the spreadsheets...you should look at bodybuilding throughout the years. Humans have always been min-maxers and this was even true all the way back in the old school games like Gaia. Also, no one is asking for third party addons we're asking for intrepid to give us their own DPS meter in game so when I hit a dummy over the course of 30 seconds I have an idea of what my performance was which is no different than working out at the gym and logging it. This is the issue right here.... This is not body building, and this is not Gaia... This is AoC, and Intrepid has said... "no meters". But yet here are the meter loving crew to try and bring what they loved from their last games to a new game, instead of just accepting the new game does not want to go that route. I get that you are desperate for a good and new MMO like the rest of us... But you cannot force mechanics into a game that are not wanted by the developing team. There are mechanics not included in this game that I loved from past MMOs... but I am not in here screaming to get them added. I just take the game the way it is intended to be played and soldier on, or find a different game that has what I like. EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them.
Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool. Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again... I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B. You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist. Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess. Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours? Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team. I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress. If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix. Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as todays generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.@Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game. Bruh how old do you think I am? The majority of AoC's fanbase lived at a time when things were not always instant.As for the spreadsheets...you should look at bodybuilding throughout the years. Humans have always been min-maxers and this was even true all the way back in the old school games like Gaia. Also, no one is asking for third party addons we're asking for intrepid to give us their own DPS meter in game so when I hit a dummy over the course of 30 seconds I have an idea of what my performance was which is no different than working out at the gym and logging it.
Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool. Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again... I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B. You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist. Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess. Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours? Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team. I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress. If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix. Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as todays generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.@Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game.
Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool. Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again... I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B. You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist. Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess. Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours? Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team.
Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool. Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again... I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B. You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist. Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess.
Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool.
Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight.
Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone.
Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here.
Biccus wrote: » So what is the arguments against some form of combat analysis tool? I’d like to see some sort of list as I’m convinced there must be a compromise somewhere.
Recluse74 wrote: » You keep saying they help out in PvP... they do not. They may help you gain confidence in PvP or against practice targets, but when the real PvP starts, they are worthless.... Unless you plan on standing outside of the main PvP fights and trying to just 1 v 1 every straggler that runs by. ... I can run around on a level 10 character in mass PvP, and so long as I do not get AoE'd and die ... I can due 1 dmg to targets and they will die just as fast due to the other 5+ level cap players that are burning them down. How do I know this? I did it Lineage 2... I ran around on a level 10 character at a castle siege because my main had Karma (Corruption) and I did not want to bring him to a siege just to lose gear. I died quite a few times, but I was there spamming my attack button and doing a small amount of damage to anything getting close.... and we captured the castle. It is not the individual DPS that wins fights, it is the collective. Obviously if I was on my main, those targets would have died .01% faster, but that is negligible. The only thing that would hurt your chances, is if a majority of your Army is too low level and doing very low damage. So you can get away with lower DPS in these instances, so long as a vast majority is doing damage close to or equal to the opponents. Where as in Raids, everyone has to meet general requirements to beat the encounter. Getting shafted is when things are unfair... there is nothing unfair about every player, playing the game on equal ground. The only thing you see as unfair, is that you do not get to play the game, the way you want. And you can not use the argument that, if they put DPS meters in the game everyone will be on equal ground either. Because not everyone wants to use them, and they sure as hell dont want to be forced to use them to compete.
Recluse74 wrote: » The only thing you see as unfair, is that you do not get to play the game, the way you want.
roost wrote: » I honestly respect you for figuring out builds and data on your own
Noaani wrote: » roost wrote: » I honestly respect you for figuring out builds and data on your own I don't. Simply because I have no doubt that the builds were unoptimized in some way or another.
Maezriel wrote: » Largely it comes down to the fear of gatekeeping as happens in WoW For others it's an immersion thing where they prefer to go out into the world and wack on mobs w/ one build, return to respec/gear and then go back to wack on mobs again to see if it's a bit better.
Biccus wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Largely it comes down to the fear of gatekeeping as happens in WoW For others it's an immersion thing where they prefer to go out into the world and wack on mobs w/ one build, return to respec/gear and then go back to wack on mobs again to see if it's a bit better. Thanks! I think the gatekeeping argument is a little unfair to put on dps meters. Gatekeeping was used by achievements, raiderio (previous success) and item level. Nobody I ever met in WoW /w people asking for their dps. I’ll add that gatekeeping will always be a thing when the number of dps players vastly outnumbers the tanks/healers. The immersion I totally understand. I personally don’t think having a dps meter on your screen in an open world PvP setting is going to be much use anyway. As a tank I do actually want some tool to review combat as no tool tip is going to explain what’s killing me. This is why I’m trying to find a compromise.
Biccus wrote: » The immersion I totally understand. I personally don’t think having a dps meter on your screen in an open world PvP setting is going to be much use anyway. As a tank I do actually want some tool to review combat as no tool tip is going to explain what’s killing me. This is why I’m trying to find a compromise.
roost wrote: » He's just scared and threatened by the technology that does it for you.
Maezriel wrote: » For the immersion that's why I'm pushing for a DPS meter in a specific training zone opened at certain Node levels so you can wave it off as an NPC tracking stats for you. For the gatekeeping part...in high enough content people will boot you if you're under a certain DPS b/c some WoW bosses are flat out DPS checks and it just can't be helped at a mathematical level. I doubt that'll be the case in AoC...however as you can see by the comment above yours....people will find other ways of gatekeeping regardless
Biccus wrote: » The immersion I totally understand. I personally don’t think having a dps meter on your screen in an open world PvP setting is going to be much use anyway.
Noaani wrote: » Biccus wrote: » The immersion I totally understand. I personally don’t think having a dps meter on your screen in an open world PvP setting is going to be much use anyway. As a top tier raid DPS for almost 20 years, I've never run a combat tracker on screen during combat.
Biccus wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » For the immersion that's why I'm pushing for a DPS meter in a specific training zone opened at certain Node levels so you can wave it off as an NPC tracking stats for you. For the gatekeeping part...in high enough content people will boot you if you're under a certain DPS b/c some WoW bosses are flat out DPS checks and it just can't be helped at a mathematical level. I doubt that'll be the case in AoC...however as you can see by the comment above yours....people will find other ways of gatekeeping regardless Only way training dummy works is if you aren’t allowed to ask people for their dps number otherwise it’ll be used as a gatekeeping tool and not a self assessment. I’m aware dps isn’t as important in open world PvP as it is in instanced PvE. We must have different ideas of gatekeeping. Anyone that got in to the group and couldn’t reach expectations, I don’t believe can claim gatekeeping. They made it in but just wasn’t good enough. But the reason they get booted is usually because they can be instantly replaced through group finder and instance teleporting. I don’t know how high you’re referring to so I have to guess.
Biccus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Biccus wrote: » The immersion I totally understand. I personally don’t think having a dps meter on your screen in an open world PvP setting is going to be much use anyway. As a top tier raid DPS for almost 20 years, I've never run a combat tracker on screen during combat. I’m sure not everyone uses a third party software that isn’t supported in game so can’t just plop it in the corner of the screen. From my experience people that use meters use them from wipe to wipe to see what went wrong. The meters (addons) are left in the corner of the screen for convenience and not bed they’re looked at throughout the fight Thing is I wasn’t talking about the third party systems you use and I certainly don’t care for you making my point about yourself.
Recluse74 wrote: » I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress.
If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix.
Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as today's generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.
Dygz wrote: » It feels shitty to watch other people get kicked - especially when your philosophy is to find ways to succeed even with the weaknesses of some people in the group. That can be accomplished without relying on DPS, DPS meters and combat trackers.
