Break the Gank Box -- Evil Suggestions Needed

I was getting hyped about this game and seriously considering dropping the cash for a beta key, but now I am reconsidering ... and open world PvP is the reason.
Steven has said that he doesn't intend for Ashes to be a gank box and that he believes the corruption system will deter that.
As a pacifist MMORPG player, I timidly disagree.
But instead of whining into my herbal tea, I would like to ask the PvPers to offer up their evil plans.
How will you get around the corruption system to gank as many innocent noobs as possible?
Suicide to clear the corruption? Alts just for ganking? Is there a way to cash shop it away?
My intention is to provide insight into how the chaotic evil players will twist the corruption system to their own nefarious ends so that maybe the devs can tweak the system before release to make it more enjoyable for peaceful players.

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Comments

Dygz

You won't drop much gear - if any - simply for one kill of a green.
It's also a portion drop of resources - we can't say how much of what was taken from you, you would be able to recoup. Seems likely you could regain much of what was taken from you - or the equivalent. Seems like the drops from a red would be more than the drops from a green.

Blackford

Exploring the wilderness should have an element of danger to it.
In WoW I play with PVP enabled (Warmode on) and while this offers a slight increase to rewards from world quests and such.... there is no actual rewards for engaging in PVP combat with other players. I really like that I can get rewards from WPVP in ashes even if it's mostly just going to be gatherable items and such (as I understand it).

I think something a lot of players are ignoring is that it works as a great way to protect your farm areas from rats. If you play MMORPGs then you know how annoying it is when someone starts fishing in your pool or mining in your cave.... You can kill them and defend your cave with a PVP system (or TAKE their cave from them!)

But after that... you're discouraged from killing them over and over with the corruption system.
So I think what most PVE focused players are worried about is being bumped off repeatedly, but I think this system largely discourages that.

While I think it would be fun to get an assassins guild type organization together and just bump off passers by and loot them, I'm not sure it would really be all that viable in the end.

Nagash

And here we go again

roost

Elo wrote: »

Oh

I mean, it sounds harsh, but it really doesn't sound like you enjoy any of the things that make an MMO an MMO. There are plenty of fantastic games with excellent exploration that's not only encouraged, but a core part of the game. Breath of the Wild comes to mind. If you like to just hang out in the wilderness with zero player interaction, (not even referring to PvP, i mean trading, raiding, dungeons, socializing in the city even), then it sounds like you want to play a single player game. That method of play is valid, but it's completely tertiary to the core components of the game. Nodes, crafting, grouped PvE, player interaction, etc. You'd be better off playing a game that has a primary focus on rewarding and engaging exploration, rather than one that doesn't.

Gubiak

Personally I don't see a lot of value in ganking low level non-combatants unless for a misguided sense of satisfaction. If anything then prioritizing high value targets like long haul gatherers or someone who just killed a highly valued mob with loot would be the way.

The way corruption system is shaping up though I am more attracted to bounty-hunting system that allows you to kill corrupted players. You get reward, grab the stuff their drop (potentially their gear) and you keep the trash off the streets while you are being praised for PvP instead condemned. Sounds like a straight up better deal.

RocketFarmer

Simple. <control> + <alt> + <delete>. If PC.

Or uninstall.

You did ask for evil.

fabula

I would like to argue that if being out alone gathering some random resource requires you to either have people protecting you or to be vigilant against others then the game is already a gank box.

People ganking others because its profitable is something you never want to deal with.
The only people you should have in mind when designing your anti-pk system is those that will do it even when its not worth it.

You can never fully prevent it but depending on the penalties you can dictate how common it is. It cannot be common because this is the definition of a gank box, it has to be a rare thing. That means that your corruption system works.

This means that the default feel of the game cannot be one of apprehension when running into another player. When your anti-pk system is working that means that the default feel of the game is one where you are not worried about getting killed by others.

Your game cannot be in a state where is has a "working anti-pk system" and at the same time your players have to huddle together not to be pked.

Biccus

@fabula i would argue subscribing to an open world PvP game and expecting no PvP while out in the world is, putting it nicely.. optimistic

Vhaeyne

@fabula

You made up a definition of "gank box" to allow you to run around solo with a fat stack of goods like its no big deal. Running around solo in a lawless place harvesting a bunch of goods should be very risky. You can't expect to be able to mine gold/farm mobs for hours alone without someone noticing and taking advantage of the opportunity you are presenting them with.

This happens in the real world too. Plenty of times in the gold rush where people would get ganked on the way back to town with a pouch of gold.

What makes it not a gank box is that people actually have to consider the risks in attacking you. Which is the case under our current corruption system.

Remember Lineage 2 was not a gank box and its "Corruption" penalties were less harsh.

fabula

@Biccus
I never stated that I just wanted pve and be a "carebear". I played UO, the poster child of pking run amok, so I've dealt with worse than whateve AoC ultimately ends up being. I know what sort of game AoC will be because I know what sort of game it cannot be.

@Vhaeyne
I also played L2 so I am familiar with the system there but I disagree that the penalties were less harsh. In L2, You could lose weeks of grinding 12+hrs per day with just a few pk deaths. Worst of all you could drop gear and that was the real penalty. Gear was super expensive to make so losing it was a huge blow, worse than the xp lost.

I don't know how long it will take to level up in AoC but from what I've heard its about 45 days, this is rather vague because it could be any number of hours in that day. 24 hrs per day would put it in the range of old EQ, 4hrs per day would be like WoW classic. Lets assume 8hrs per day, so about 15 days played to reach max level. Obviously there's no way for the xp penalties to be harsher than L2, plus I REALLY doubt gear will be as hard to get as it was in L2, because this would undermine the whole crafting system.

This leads to the reason why I say that the feel of the game cannot be one where you are constantly worried of getting ganked. Its because AoC will have game systems that build upon each other. A caravan full of materials has to be better than a mule full of materials which has to be better than a player. The lone player with a mule full of goods has to be the worst way to transport those materials because otherwise the caravan system would be useless. At the same time it has to be safest because the caravan creates a pvp zone with no penalties at all so why wouldn't you attack it?

The player has to choose between safe but slow or fast but risky when they want to transport those materials.

Vhaeyne

@fabula

I never called you a carebaer. You seem pretty insulted. I hope that is not the case.

You do make a solid point about the XP penalty in L2 vs Ashes. Which is also amusing if you read any of the threads about how the XP penalty is too harsh. I agree that the XP penalty needs to stay harsh to make PKing more risky. This can be addressed with penalty balancing once we are testing end game.

I was hoping that Ashes gear would be L2 hard to get at higher grades. Nothing is known yet about the reality of end game gear rarity. With Crafters, Gatherers, Spoilers, and Processors all trying to make profit off gear it could be quite expensive to get gear. To me, it looks like a lot of middle men taking a cut. Gear could be L2 expensive at higher grades.

The corruption system will be fine as long as the penalties match the reality of how hard it is to get gear and XP. The corruption system favors the victim a lot more than the karma system did "on paper".

You are right that if gear and XP is easy to get it will undermine the whole thing.

I still don't think people should be able to farm alone for hours with expecting someone to notice that they may have an inventory worth fighting for.

Paranoyd

Where there's a will and groups of meta-gaming, min/max minded players, there's a way. The most common way you see on most of the replies here aren't anything specific to a tactic on where, or when they will PK you. The most common link is "bring friends".

Therein is your answer. Regardless of individual penalties, a group of player set on PvP ganking will bring groups of their friends. 10 friends passing off the PK's to each other means 1 player can get killed by each one of them, without any single one of them suffering any severe penalty. The other 9 simply stand guard, debuff, block retreats, etc.

Imagine now, being that gatherer trying to level a skill, or gather materials in a a nearby location that allows access to the equipment they need within a couple minutes walk. Now imagine how infuriating it would be to have that one location camped by whatever major guild was populating that area, trading off their murder spree on anyone who wandered into that zone. Now you have to cross the map, spend 45+ minutes making that same journey to an area less populated and having your grind multiplied exponentially as a result.

So I'd just ask that before calling people "care bears" everyone realize there is a legitimate, real world expense people invest into playing any game, period. There are bills to pay, work to do, trips to take, etc. in the real world. Playing the game is a casual escape from that, and one that means investing a person's free time in between the daily rat race. You start introducing mechanics that exponentially increase the time it will take a player to do something, and/or they risk losing hours worth of work, simply because group A of players wants to "have fun", you are going to lose the rest of players and the game will become a ghost town, filled only with the like-minded PvP/PKers. Historically speaking, no modern MMO that has promoted that system has ever done well in the long run.

fabula

@Vhaeyne
I know you didn't, that response was at someone else.

I think the very best end game gear will probably L2 hard since it requires raids/world bosses parts to make. That is end game gear though, I'm sure there are super rare materials where even such a geared played might take that risk but this should be the exception and not the rule. I'm not talking about the experience of joe the end game crafter. I'm talking about joe the newbie lumberjack our cutting wood in the forest.

If you are hunting/gathering and you see a player appear, if your default reaction is being worried about getting killed because you are a loot pinata then I feel some of the other systems in the game have to be in a broken state.

I really don't have much of a preference either way to be honest, I would just accept the game for what it is.

What I am really trying to say is that you can't have a game where caravans/node wars/sieges are the main form of pvp and this is what the developers want since they have no penalties and at the same time have the everyday experience of joe the lumberjack be one where he is constantly worried about getting ganked for his loot.

Conrad

Considering the fucking undead rogues in wow, I want no rewards to exist for ganking. But hunting down those gankers? Oh boy how I am gonna vent haha

Would enjoy that as much as a mercenary band system

Biccus

fabula wrote: »

I know you didn't, that response was at someone else.

I think the very best end game gear will probably L2 hard since it requires raids/world bosses parts to make. That is end game gear though, I'm sure there are super rare materials where even such a geared played might take that risk but this should be the exception and not the rule. I'm not talking about the experience of joe the end game crafter. I'm talking about joe the newbie lumberjack our cutting wood in the forest.

If you are hunting/gathering and you see a player appear, if your default reaction is being worried about getting killed because you are a loot pinata then I feel some of the other systems in the game have to be in a broken state.

I really don't have much of a preference either way to be honest, I would just accept the game for what it is.

What I am really trying to say is that you can't have a game where caravans/node wars/sieges are the main form of pvp and this is what the developers want since they have no penalties and at the same time have the everyday experience of joe the lumberjack be one where he is constantly worried about getting ganked for his loot.

Well I didn’t call you a carebear or PvE player either, anyway.. you’re argument seems to be that gatherers shouldn’t have to be mindful of getting ganked in the world. But that’s one of the keys points of the games open world PvP. Resources are meant to be fought over.
At least that’s how I’ve understood it.

akabear

The emphasis on ganking is the premise that the person being pk`ed has done little to warrant being killed.

There are plenty of reasons that may result in pk`ing.

Take the guildless individual group that repeatedly take out your node`s caravans. Sure you can pvp them during the passage of a caravan. But what if they are way too successful as a group. You can`t war them as they are clanless. Then you let your node suffer or perhaps a few pk`s here and there might be sufficient persuasion.

tautau

I suspect that there will be plenty of players glad to form protective groups for gathering resources. Including me.

Dygz

In my experience, that's not really a viable solution from the PvEer perspective.
PvPer's tend to think it's the perfect solution, though.

Gimlog

@Paranoyd "The other 9 simply stand guard, debuff, block retreats, etc "
This sentence show that you didn't understand the system...

If you have to block , it means that the victim fight back and you will be flagged purple and will not suffer any penalties for the kill.

If you debuff the victim or buff your Allie , you are participating in the battle so you'll get corruption for the kill...

And I hope that a group of 10 , murdering 10 others player , that each of them get as much corruption as if they did murder 10 player by them self ,to demotivate group murders.

False Prophet

Like someone already mentioned, PKing is only economically viable in zones with rare resources. I can't think of anything I could do to cheese the system but I can say that the bounty hunters don't really bother me. If corrupt players do drop equipment on death then i'll just wear a spare set I don't really need.

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