What tools are given to Roleplayers?

ariatras wrote: »

what would you consider excessive?

Anything beyond basic chairs and emotes that takes a lot for the developers to develop and maintain.

Currently, things like the Taverns, Parlor games, VoIP are things I consider excessive RP tools.

Again, I understand some of this stuff has been stated features since the Kickstarter, but that does not mean they are good for the game in my opinion.

ariatras wrote: »

Roleplayers do not actually require a whole lot.

Which is why I am fine with things like chairs, emotes, chat channels for RP.

I am actually aware of the total role-play add-on. One night while drinking my friend sat in Stormwind on the "Deviant Delight" classic wow server and read profiles to the boys and me while we laughed on into the night.

Mind you, some of it was respectable stuff worthy of my D&D table, but there was some "Adult" stuff that made me shoot beer from my nose.

From what I have seen of Total role-play it stores simple texts like an online D&D character sheet. That does not seem like something that would be an extreme investment for the DEVs. I would be for that.

In fact, DDO has a "Bio" page that lets you set a long text that anyone can see when they inspect you for the same purpose. This is good for RPers, but I have also seen hard core raiders and traders use it to list attunements or items in their warehouse. I think everyone could get use out of something universal like a big blank page.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

In fact, DDO has a "Bio" page that lets you set a long text that anyone can see when they inspect you for the same purpose.

As does EQ2.

Something like this isn't inherently RP, even if it can be used as such. I set mine in EQ2 to tell people inspecting me to piss off - left it like that for years.

Dygz

Vhaeyne wrote: »

You skipped my post where I dissected the meaning of RPG and how RPG does not literally mean you role play.. It has not only meant that in my lifetime. I am skeptical that RPG has literally meant you role play for most of your life time my old friend.

I didn't skip it. I don't agree with you.

Vhaeyne wrote: »

What he is doing in the video is common theatrics of guild leaders and streams do in moderation.
It is also not something that people expect. It is a little bit of optional fun that requires nothing extra be added to the game. This requires none of the extra RP tools I am against. He is using discord. Which is fine.

Uh. No. You say, "What he is doing..."
And I'm talking about what everyone is doing. Toast and all of the other team members.
Any talk about wehre the enemy is forming and where they should focus their defenses first are RP.
They are all playing the roles of castle defenders.
The core of RP has little to do with theatrics. Of course, some people will be more hardcore and theatrical about their RP than others.
But, if you are chatting about what's going on in the game from the view of your character - that is RP.
If you start talking about numbers and DPS...that is spilling over into meta.
But, directing your teammates to ballistas and trebuchets is RP. Asking who the current mayor is RP. Directing people to head to town for a vote is RP.

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Maybe he just has not heard a compelling argument for why he should not be throwing everything including the kitchen skin into his game?

I see Ashes strength as being a good hardcore PvX game that will unite PvP and PvE players in an emergent story created through real drama and competition. I don't see its strenght as an environment to RP in.

I don't know how you are using hardcore. Steven will tell you that Ashes is also for casuals.
The strength of Ashes is that it will be uniting PvP, PvE and RP players.
Because talking about the town that was destroyed and the new city that appeared is RP.
Discussing which buildings should be built is RP.
Gathering people to attack or defend a Caravan is RP.
Anything that supports your characters Playing their Roles is RP.
Again, sure, there are ways to do that which are more out of character than in-character. People could be talking to other players about what Steven and Maggie said in the last Dev Livestream instead of which guilds currently own a Castle.
But, most of what people will be doing in Ashes is RPing, while they are PvPing and PvEing. Just as we see in the Siege Video.
"They're coming, they're coming!"
"Which side?"
"The left side if you're looking away from the castle."
"Stage left."
"Stand by, everybody."
"Also, Ice Dragon is reset. Nobody's on it."
"Sweet."
"Are they on the field yet?"
"They're all to the left of us, in front of the Poison Dragon."

All of that is RolePlaying. It is also PvP.

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Most of what is listed here has an economic and mechanical purpose that is important to the game. You are seeing the RP value in game mechanics. Me thinking swords are a melee weapon does not mean that I think that for RP reasons. I think that for mechanical reasons.

They have both RP value and mechanical value - because Ashes is an RPG.
A character's weapons are a key aspect of roleplaying.
How you think of them is irrelevant. How you talk about them in-game could be RP or out-of-character.
And that's why the manner in which the info on gear is displayed is crucial to supporting or detracting from RP. Because if you are discussing the merits of enchanted leather gloves over worn leather gloves, that is RP.
If you are discussing the merits of 2.68 DPS leather gloves over 3.2 Haste leather gloves, you're moving into meta and are on a slippery slope to ooc discussion.

The reason that Steven wants to move away from numbers on health and mana bars and numbers on gear is to better support RP.

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Yes Taverns have been in the game since the kickstarter and I think they should be cut. I also thing the family summoning system I think should be cut. Parlor games should absolutely be cut. VoIP of any kind should be cut.

If I see ideas that, I think, are bad for the game I am not just going to sit back and keep my mouth shut. I voice my opinion.

Which is fine, I think. You should always voice your opinions.
But, on the one hand you say, "It is clear to me that Role Playing is not a focus in Ashes."
On the other you say, you think that RP features that have been in the design since the start should be cut.
Ashes has a focus on RP. Doesn't matter whether you like it or agree with it or want it to be cut. It's there.
You can, of course, talk about why you don't like that aspect of the game design.

Dygz

ariatras wrote: »

But honestly, what would you consider excessive?

After looking at some vids for TRP3, I have some ideas about problematic tools - especially for Ashes.
TL;DR TRP3 seems kind of OK in general, but TRP3 Extended is highly problematic and probably counts as "excessive".

TRP3 Extended appears to allow "GMs" to create quests, rename NPCs and offer rewards.
That is probably great for a static Themepark, but it's horrible for a dynamic, shared Sandpark.
The devs are not going to support anything like that. Everything we do in the game is going to impact the prgression of Nodes, so...those all need to be rooted in the reality of the game world, rather than the imaginations of RP actors. It's why server transfers will be highly unlikely - your character can't have credit for accomplishing things that haven't actually occurred your server.

Same for the basic TRP3.
Some of the features could be great for Ashes:
Quick access to a character sheet that lists details of character appearance is great, but it should be the actual character stats taken from the character creator. Same for titles. Same for Achievements.
The Notes section becomes problematic when people can write in that they used to be a Monarch of one of the Castles or Mayor of a Node when those things never happened. I suppose the proper response to false claims would be to treat that character as being delusional, but... it needs to be clear which accomplishments are true and which are false.

In my view, RP needs to be as close as possible to what's actually happened and what's actually happening in the game world. Rather than what's just happening in the imaginations of a handful of people.

I completely disagree that rp tool are not needed. They are trying to create a living world that a player will care about a lot more then a mmo that you log into do a raid for some gear and log out of. Taverns , games and other social things promotes community interaction inside the game itself, where is now and days people don't really talk or socialized at all in mmos anymore. I think Steven wants to bring back the "role playing game" aspect of a mmorpg , you may not be acting out "a character" in game but you will be filling a "role" of some kind with your character rather it be a merchant , mercenary or a pirate. The more social interaction tools they want to bring into the game the better in my opinion.

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

RP should be the norm

No it shouldnt.

So what should it be then...in an MMORPG?

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I don't agree that MMORPGs are a worthwhile canvas for real role playing. I like both genres and I think they are stronger when their unique flavors are not combined in excessive ways.

Basically this.

In the same way a tabletop game simply can't compete with an MMO for raid content in terms of complexity (unless you have several years worth of weekly sessions per encounter), MMO's simply can't compete with tabletop for the actual RP experience they offer.

People trying to mix either of these ruin both mediums.

Perhaps it´s your own lack of imagination then i may point out, rather than everyone else!

An opinion is that you as an example cannot see any actual RP value in an MMO.
A fact is that Ashes of Creation does not have automatic rifles and lightsabres ( you get the point )

The last comment more sound along the line of when people are trying to shoehorn in a " full stop " because it´s fitting to their narrative, not the genres. Some will RP, others will not, but we share the game in common.

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes has a focus on RP. Doesn't matter whether you like it or agree with it or want it to be cut. It's there.
You can, of course, talk about why you don't like that aspect of the game design.

I don't see it. What I see is feature creep. All the PvP and PvE features work together to create something that is greater than the sum of their individual parts, a great competitive open world PvX game.

The RP features I think should be cut are extra side content that is only useful to a minority of the player base.
A minority that would be happier in games like Pantheon, ESO, LOTRO or even WOW. It is all extra stuff that would not change the game much if cut.

Ariatras was very correct when he said this "Roleplayers do not actually require a whole lot.".
You "need" chat text, and maybe emotes and chairs are a nice extra. You are getting those things for sure. The stuff I think should be cut are the least useful features in the game.

I did advocate for the "Bio" tab because that actually has use beyond RP and is relatively simple.

I am thinking about the greater picture here. What is best for the most people? Catering to an obscure sub-genre is not the best move for the most people. Again, you think I hate RP, I don't. I don't like for competitive MMOs to invest in RP features because it is not a good medium for the craft.

Noaani

Grihm wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

RP should be the norm

No it shouldnt.

So what should it be then...in an MMORPG?

It should be what it is in every other MMO - a thing fairly small percentage of the population does some of the time.

When I log in to an MMO, I am not interested in asking the other characters how their day is going, I am interested in talking to my friends about how their day is going, how their families are doing, how their job or study is going.

Grihm wrote: »

Perhaps it´s your own lack of imagination then i may point out, rather than everyone else!

Nope, not a lack of imagination.

Logging in to an MMO is to connect with many thousands of people around the world, many of whom you can form a personal relationship with.

Why would I do that and then pretend to be someone else? I personally quite like who I am, and I quite like the majority of the people that I chose to spend time with in such games.

Rather than being a lack of imagination, not roleplaying is being content with who we are, and enjoying ourselves and those around us as the people we are.

Why would I want to imagine being someone else when I am perfectly happy with who I am?

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I am thinking about the greater picture here. What is best for the most people? Catering to an obscure sub-genre is not the best move for the most people. Again, you think I hate RP, I don't. I don't like for competitive MMOs to invest in RP features because it is not a good medium for the craft.

I really think you are not seeing "the living world" part of the game and what Ashes is trying to. The rp features are not side things that have no meaning to the game, they provide in game benefits. Taverns will provide area wide buffs base on the food quality , players will have a reason to go to these places, tavern games will be more popular with players if there is gambling involved. They are building a game off of social interaction , you will be "role-playing" in the game in some way because of the sandbox nature of the game and what role you want to do in the game, the game design is kind of herding people into this mentality of a living , breathing world.

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

I really think you are not seeing "the living world" part of the game and what Ashes is trying to.

I am seeing the living world part clear. I have linked many EVE and 2b2t emergent story videos on here.
That is not RP, that is real stories that come from players and guilds interacting as players and guilds. It is not from players role-playing as characters.

When a player spends months infiltrating a guild to gain access to a guild bank to rob it. He is not RPing a deceptive character. He is being a deceptive person. The resulting war from that interaction is real.

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

The rp features are not side things that have no meaning to the game, they provide in game benefits. Taverns will provide area wide buffs base on the food quality , players will have a reason to go to these places, tavern games will be more popular with players if there is gambling involved. They are building a game off of social interaction , you will be "role-playing" in the game in some way because of the sandbox nature of the game and what role you want to do in the game, the game design is kind of herding people into this mentality of a living , breathing world.

I played DDO for many years. The Taverns were intended to be RP hubs. The game makes you respawn at them and eating food and water before leaving is highly recommended. In this example the game forces you into RP hubs and uses game mechanics to strong-arm you into taking RP actions. The result is that most players appear in the tavern, you see a food and water animation. They quickly haul ass out of the tavern.

I have played DDO since launch and I have never seen any RP take place in the tavern. The most socialization I have ever seen was tavern fights when people had nothing better to do because it was the only PvP zone in the game.

All of this content could be pulled out of DDO as well and the game would function better. In fact, I believe many people bind to their airships now and ignore the taverns all together because using the airship is much faster.

Role-playing is extra side content that is not relevant in MMOs. If it did not work in Dungeons and Dragons Online, what chance does any other IP have?

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I played DDO for many years. The Taverns were intended to be RP hubs. The game makes you respawn at them and eating food and water before leaving is highly recommended. In this example the game forces you into RP hubs and uses game mechanics to strong-arm you into taking RP actions. The result is that most players appear in the tavern, you see a food and water animation. They quickly haul ass out of the tavern.

Well in Star Wars Galaxies before SOE ruined it , Cantinas were the social hubs of the game and lots of player hung around in them. Sandbox games by nature of design are a lot more social then other mmos and Ashes is trying to bring that back. All the rp features they are doing are integrated into game mechanics in some way, being social is going to be very important in the game like this, how else you will be a successful merchant or be elected mayor in a scientific node without players liking you in game, best way to get players to like you is to hold in game social events.

Noaani wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

RP should be the norm

No it shouldnt.

So what should it be then...in an MMORPG?

It should be what it is in every other MMO - a thing fairly small percentage of the population does some of the time.

When I log in to an MMO, I am not interested in asking the other characters how their day is going, I am interested in talking to my friends about how their day is going, how their families are doing, how their job or study is going.

Grihm wrote: »

Perhaps it´s your own lack of imagination then i may point out, rather than everyone else!

Nope, not a lack of imagination.

Logging in to an MMO is to connect with many thousands of people around the world, many of whom you can form a personal relationship with.

Why would I do that and then pretend to be someone else? I personally quite like who I am, and I quite like the majority of the people that I chose to spend time with in such games.

Rather than being a lack of imagination, not roleplaying is being content with who we are, and enjoying ourselves and those around us as the people we are.

Why would I want to imagine being someone else when I am perfectly happy with who I am?

If this is your way you see the game, then why do you come to an MMORPG? Sorry, but i get the sense more and more from certain people, that they would rather scale away the roleplay aspects of Ashes than to accept it.

You can be whomever you want bud, but this is an RPG no matter how you twist it..and we plan to make the most of it.

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

Well in Star Wars Galaxies before SOE ruined it , Cantinas were the social hubs of the game and lots of player hung around in them. Sandbox games by nature of design are a lot more social then other mmos and Ashes is trying to bring that back. All the rp features they are doing are integrated into game mechanics in some way, being social is going to be very important in the game like this, how else you will be a successful merchant or be elected mayor in a scientific node without players liking you in game, best way to get players to like you is to hold in game social events.

Played that too, It was a case of game mechanics forcing people to wait in a spot they preferred not to be. Unless you just wanted to leave a Twi'lek alt there dancing on your second account for tips, most people did not prefer to spend time there.

People might say a few RP things while they are forced to wait. That whole system could have been removed from that game, and it would have been better for it.

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Role-playing is extra side content that is not relevant in MMOs. If it did not work in Dungeons and Dragons Online, what chance does any other IP have?

Same question here.. Why come to an MMORPG if this is your POV?
Sure, you are most welcome to avoid RP if you wish, but the attempts to work against it, that is quite baffling.

Stating that roleplay is just " extra side content ".... That says a lot. I will say as we do here. Let´s agree to disagree. You can skip out on doing any RP as much as you want, but i made this thread to debate on what tools we can make use of. If you want to talk about removing elements or how RP has little room, i would prefer you make a thread on it separately from mine.

Grihm wrote: »

Same question here.. Why come to an MMORPG if this is your POV?
Sure, you are most welcome to avoid RP if you wish, but the attempts to work against it, that is quite baffling.

Why come to an MMORPG?
There are so many good answers to that. Challenging competitive and cooperative gameplay, a persistent progression system, a real organic economy, sometimes endless build customization to play with, deep crafting systems... The list of non-RP reasons to play MMORPGs is the full list of reasons why people play MMOs.

Grihm wrote: »

Stating that roleplay is just " extra side content ".... That says a lot. I will say as we do here. Let´s agree to disagree. You can skip out on doing any RP as much as you want, but i made this thread to debate on what tools we can make use of. If you want to talk about removing elements or how RP has little room, i would prefer you make a thread on it separately from mine.

I prefer not to let the notion that more RP tools be added to the game go unchallenged. If no one challenged these ideas in this thread it would just be an echo chamber. The whole point of the forums is to have these discussions about the game. The counter opinion is needed and constructive.

Even if we don't change each other's minds, we can still improve our understandings of each other's opinions and our own opinions. To me, there is a lot of value in that.

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Played that too, It was a case of game mechanics forcing people to wait in a spot they preferred not to be. Unless you just wanted to leave a Twi'lek alt there dancing on your second account for tips, most people did not prefer to spend time there.

People might say a few RP things while they are forced to wait. That whole system could have been removed from that game, and it would have been better for it.

You are assuming that most people don't like hanging out in social hubs , I don't think that is true. You can log into Star Wars Galaxies Legends , the most popular private server right now and everyone will be at a certain Cantina at Mos Eisley because it is the place to be. The whole reason there was a big mass exodus from the game is because SOE ruined the sandbox social nature of the game and tried to turn it into a themepark game like WoW. People like in game social events and hanging out , Asmongold became a extremely successful streamer for doing that in WoW with mount offs and transmog competitions, that stuff works.

Making a stale game of no interaction is not what Ashes is trying to do , the game is being built on a foundation of social interaction and cause and effect. Players will be "role-playing" in the game rather they realize it or not, the hardcore pvp player who thinks "rp" is stupid is still performing a "role" in the game as a bandit , pirate, murderer. You say rp stuff is a waste of resources but my counter argument to that is that the whole game is actually being design around being a "role-playing" game and it doesn't require players to have to be a thespian actor doing a dramatic role in game to be one , just your presence in game and what you do in it is all that is needed.

@Vhaeyne I have a feeling that what you are trying to push is, that RP should be done as you prefer it, and the rest is a waste of resources or time.

You keep contradicting yourself back and forth i feel, but again...onward with the thread. This back and forth is not helping.

Let us continue.

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

You are assuming that most people don't like hanging out in social hubs , I don't think that is true. You can log into Star Wars Galaxies Legends , the most popular private server right now and everyone will be at a certain Cantina at Mos Eisley because it is the place to be. The whole reason there was a big mass exodus from the game is because SOE ruined the sandbox social nature of the game and tried to turn it into a themepark game like WoW. People like in game social events and hanging out , Asmongold became a extremely successful streamer for doing that in WoW with mount offs and transmog competitions, that stuff works.

Making a stale game of no interaction is not what Ashes is trying to do , the game is being built on a foundation of social interaction and cause and effect. Players will be "role-playing" in the game rather they realize it or not, the hardcore pvp player who thinks "rp" is stupid is still performing a "role" in the game as a bandit , pirate, murderer. You say rp stuff is a waste of resources but my counter argument to that is that the whole game is actually being design around being a "role-playing" game and it doesn't require players to have to be a thespian actor doing a dramatic role in game to be one , just your presence in game and what you do in it is all that is needed.

If sitting in around and chatting like a normal person is RPing than I have been RPing on this forum for a year now...

Transmog and mount offs are not RPing they are collecting and Dress up contents...

I am not advocating for a stale game with less interaction. I am advocating for these extra systems to be cut to emphasize the core features of the game.

One feature I did not ask to be cut is player housing. The place where most RPing happens in FFXIV. In FFXIV you can turn a whole floor of your house into a tavern, spa, even a theater where people put on plays. It is hard to sit by and watch DEVs invest time in a system just to create the same thing twice. It is even harder when the scope of the game is bigger than any other MMORPG on the market and historically new MMORPGs from new companies don't do so well. Often due to too much ambition.

I watched Wildstar come and go, promising the stars, delivering the moon, and fading to obscurity. All because it tried to be everything and in doing so, it became nothing.

I don't want that to happen to Ashes.