What tools are given to Roleplayers?

As many of us, roleplayers or not simply do not have access to Ashes yet, perhaps you that have could help paint a picture on what resources or tools exist in AoC for Roleplay.

If you want, and have the time, i would appreciate any information you could give, and are allowed to give of course. Lengthy or detailed is up to one and each, but if you would like a shorter reply, you could simply copy paste this text below, add your own info to that.

Example Format:

Tools or mechanics in Ashes of Creation as of right now post 2021 - xx - xx
* Sitting on chairs / benches / ground
* Chat bubbles toggle on / off / Optionally viewed
* Guild halls etc, as in areas private for meetings
* Options to color outfits, add sigills on tabards, clan markings on banners etc
* etc etc

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Noaani

Maezriel wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

Players such as Noaani & Vhaeyne will have far less heads to bash in if no one is playing the game b/c the majority of MMO players want to feel a part of a living world and pure roleplayers needs systems players to help drive the in game content.

I don't really disagree with your post (though some points require specific context) other than the one word bolded above.

It isn't the majority. Again, if it were, lifeless games like WoW (even if there is story that exists, it isn't in the actual game) would be dead.

Edit to add.

EQ2 - great story, great storytelling.
Rift - great story, ok storytelling.
LotRO, great story, fairly good story telling.
WoW, ok story, shit storytelling.
Archeage, ok story, ok storytelling.
Age of Conan, good story, good storytelling.
ESO, great story, good storytelling.

Find a connection in there in terms of how well each game has done in relation to story/storytelling.

The largest games on that list had years of backstory long before they were released.

Yeah, but so does the smallest.

Decades of story, in fact.

That's the point.

WoW has years of sub-standard story and is popular.

LotRO and Age of Conan have decades of some of the most influential western literature behind them, and had middling populations at best.

Archeage had an extremely popular current novel series as its basis, and it did nothing at all for the game.

Then we look at EQ. EQ as a franchise had more written about it than Warcraft as a franchise when EQ2 released - and it was far better story. Today, it has probably three or four times as much written, ad there are two games with yearly expansions.

Again, it didnt help.

The only thing that can be claimed is that WoW had more written about it that gamers consumed in games and associated with a game IP - but even then since that game didn't really continue the story in in any interesting way, the story in it cant be claimed as anything keeping people playing.

Also, this isnt really a derailment. The thread is talking about RP features, and this discussion about story is a subset of that.

Maezriel

Noaani wrote: »

even then since that game didn't really continue the story in in any interesting way, the story in it cant be claimed as anything keeping people playing.

If you don't have a great story then your systems need to make up for it such as in Eve Online.

That said, at the end of the day it is still a game and obviously bad games will not grow regardless of it's story, hence LOTRO.

SWTOR wasn't the the worst MMO...but plenty of people felt it got better when it stopped trying to be WoW in space and shifted to being KOTOR 4 by focusing on it's class narratives.

One thing you can't deny though is that the vast majority of MMO players are casual. For this particular conversation I'll define that as someone who has less than a few hours a day to play, if not only a few hours a week.

These are the guys that are going to get the most out of single player (usually immersive) elements such as an engaging story/questing, animal taming, mat farming & crafting, parlor games, etc.

Now specifically in the case of WoW, I think you have a good deal of bias. You've called it lifeless and said the story isn't interesting. Mechanically, when WoW is good it's really good and when it's bad it still tends to be better than most. It's far from a perfect game but the reason so many people complain is b/c they know what it could be if Blizzard ever had the balls to step down from it's pedestal and admit it's mistakes.

As for it's story Nobbel87 is able to make a living off of a YouTube channel solely dedicated to Warcraft's lore, people run around in the real world w/ Horde and Alliance emblems permanently tattooed to their bodies, players went bananas for Legion b/c not only did it have good systems (at least during the last patch that is) it was the close of a storyline that started in 2002.

If people are invested in the world, whether it's b/c of the pre-written story or the one crafted by the players, they are far more likely to continue playing the game. It is an important pillar of the genre.

Even if you disagree w/ all of this I would have to ask how you'd want to handle leveling in an MMO w/o a story. Eve has it's skill points but it's more of an economic simulator which really can only work in a game like Eve.
One of the more common request in regards to questing in AoC is "no fetch quest" b/c of how badly WoW handles them due to most of it's questing being little more than a timegate between you and max level. Whereas in ESO the story is intrinsically wrapped into everything and it's questing is viewed overwhelmingly positively.

Noaani

Maezriel wrote: »

Even if you disagree w/ all of this I would have to ask how you'd want to handle leveling in an MMO w/o a story.

Since most players simply click through the NPC text on leveling quests, they would conceivably simply keep those quests in place and not even bother with the text.

Or they could go the PoE route and simply throw a mass of linear content at players that has no need for a story. They could also do this with branching content - there is no specific need for it to be linear.

As to this paragraph.

Maezriel wrote: »

As for it's story Nobbel87 is able to make a living off of a YouTube channel solely dedicated to Warcraft's lore, people run around in the real world w/ Horde and Alliance emblems permanently tattooed to their bodies, players went bananas for Legion b/c not only did it have good systems (at least during the last patch that is) it was the close of a storyline that started in 2002.

I have two specific thoughts,

First, any IP with enough of a following will have people making a living off the lore - this is in no way specific to WoW.

Second, people have tattoos from WoW and other IP's, but more often than not it is because of something they associate that IP with, rather than the IP itself (where they met friends, partners etc). It is a reminder of good times had with friends rather than a reminder of the game.

Vhaeyne

Y'all remember when that "Defiance" MMORPG and TV Show was coming on the scene?

You could not escape hearing about it. The ads and hype was off the chart for a while. People were excited about the "Potential" of a TV show and MMORPG that can be enjoyed in tandem. It was a new concept.

I always thought it was a massive case of companies not understanding the wants and needs of their target audience. Instead of investing all the money in the game, they spent a lot on a TV show. They made a shitty game and a shitty show. In the process, they also wasted tons of money on advertising.

Dygz

Yes. Some RPGs will be shitty.
As if anyone claimed that if a game has a great story it will be a great game.
I would hope that you can make better arguments than that.

Vhaeyne

Dygz wrote: »

Yes. Some RPGs will be shitty.
As if anyone claimed that if a game has a great story it will be a great game.
I would hope that you can make better arguments than that.

Who are you talking to and what argument is being made?

Maezriel

Noaani wrote: »

Since most players simply click through the NPC text on leveling quests, they would conceivably simply keep those quests in place and not even bother with the text.

1. I would be willing to bet that literally nothing exists that can back this claim.

2. You fall into that 1% I mentioned that enjoys blitzing to the endgame. That's fine. I've done the endgame blitz before and had my fun w/ it, but I've also done the slow, story based, playthrough. I've seen both sides of this.

My statement was built on the fact that the majority of gamers are casual and I'm really hoping no one here is going to try and dispute that. They are the ones not racing to the end game to bonk each other's heads which is why I said they're far more likely to invest more in the single player and immersive parts of the game such as questing. I even gave you not one, but two, different games where players enjoy the questing experience b/c of how it's story is built into it. You yourself admitted that big IPs bring people in and they're big b/c of their stories. SWTOR likely would have died a long, long, time ago if it hadn't been for the fanboys invested in it's universe. Hell, who do you think are the ones still playing LOTRO in 2021?

You say people get WoW tattoos to remember friends and partners they met in game? How many friends have people made just for being a fan of Fallout? Skyrim? Zelda? Mario? Dragon Age? Mass Effect? Half-Life? Stardew Valley?

I've been following One Piece for over 20 years now and have not made a single friend based on that fandom...Never once in two decades have I even had someone watch an episode w/ me. Yet I'm actively saving up for a full sleeve dedicated to it.

People like to remember things they can invest themselves into it either b/c they've made friends, been a part of it the better part of their lives (i.e. Nintendo games) or b/c they resonated and connected w/ the world; which is what a good story helps do.

The beauty of the MMORPG is that it bridges the divide between these two types of players in an almost entirely unique way.

___________________________________

Now, not only am just kind of exhausted of defending the minutia of my argument, when I looked back in the thread to remember what it was we were even talking about at this point I saw that OP had actually requested we change the subject b/c he's right...none of this is actually covering the tools that will be available to Roleplayers so this is gonna be my last say on it.

@Grihm sorry for getting this far off the rails. If you aren't yet I strongly suggest joining the Unofficial Roleplay Server and if you don't mind a bit of self promotion I actually have a video on this topic going out tomorrow. If you really hate YouTubers then ping me in the Discord and I and about 200 other people will be delighted to answer any questions

Noaani

Maezriel wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Since most players simply click through the NPC text on leveling quests, they would conceivably simply keep those quests in place and not even bother with the text.

1. I would be willing to bet that literally nothing exists that can back this claim.

2. You fall into that 1% I mentioned that enjoys blitzing to the endgame. That's fine. I've done the endgame blitz before and had my fun w/ it, but I've also done the slow, story based, playthrough. I've seen both sides of this.

To 1, I maybe could, but I would be looking back for a quote from a developer from EQ2 from at least 15 years ago.

There was a discussion back then in relation to not every quest in that game being voice acted, and a developer (Illucide, iirc) chimed in saying that the data they have indicates that most (iirc they used 90%) players simply click through quest dialogue anyway, so they didn't see much value in voice acting the bulk of quests.

So, yea, I have nothing to back it up, but only because I am not willing to go looking for it (and it may not actually be on line anywhere now). However, you and I also know perfectly well that you won't find any comment from anyone that would have reason to know that would refute this.

As to your second point, in games with a story that is worth it, I always end up running an alt to look at the story after my main is at the level cap. There is a reason I am able to compare the quality of story and storytelling in all the games I have played.

While the bulk of gamers are indeed casual, that doesn't mean they are stopping at each quest update to dead what is being said - in my experience it is the casual players that are least likely to do so, as they just want to get on with killing stuff in the time they have available. Not even specifically about progress, they just want to carry on with the killing.

Maezriel wrote: »

You say people get WoW tattoos to remember friends and partners they met in game? How many friends have people made just for being a fan of Fallout? Skyrim? Zelda? Mario? Dragon Age? Mass Effect? Half-Life? Stardew Valley?

I used the notion of remembering friends as an example, it obviously isn't a catch-all. A friend of mine has a Skyrim tattoo. He started playing the game in 2015 when I showed him it. He was at a point where he needed something to do to keep his mind occupied, as he had just left his rather abusive partner.

The tattoo of the games logo for him isn't a reminder of the game, or any piece of content. The tattoo is because that game means personal freedom to him. If you talk to most people with a tattoo of any specific IP, there will be a story as to why that specific IP means more to them than it does to the average consumer of that IP. Friends and such is one such reason, but not the only reason.

I would be shocked if you could find even one person that said they had a tattoo of a game IP specifically and solely because of the story of that game. There is always something deeper that the person associates with it.

I will guarantee that you have a deeper attachment to what it is you are saving to get a tattoo of than most consumers of that IP will have.

ariatras

I'm not going to quote you two up there with me. It's a bit of a hassle to remove the irrelevant parts.

You say a lot of casuals play this. And that's true. But -that- is why people blitz through quest. I'll explain the reasoning.

Casualisation of games has been a thing now for many years. You can see it all over the place, I'll give some examples.
World of Warcraft, like you mentioned. Kept adding tool after tool that made the game more casual. You know the ones, they've been argued to death. But the one I want to highlight specifically is markers. The reason you can blaze through quest text in WoW these days is because after you accept all the quests in a specific hub, you open the map to see where it all is. The areas are highlighted all nicely. Before, in 2004/2005 when Questie add-on was not a thing, you had to carefully read the text. Like you'd have to get his favourite food. A Zhevra carcass and place it at a specific place, the place was described in the quest's text. And that was it. It naturally made you read the quests. And, as a result, you learn more about the lore of the game. Nowadays they have to do it with cutscenes otherwise people won't remember any of the lore.
But it happens everywhere, not just WoW, look at the devolution of Morrowind to Skyrim.

From a business perspective, it makes sense for a game to want to 'reel in' the casuals. The retention of players will be lower by using these types of tools, so you have to get players to care in a different way. Ashes does it in the form of community projects. Like help build a metropolis node.

The problem, and reason why we won't see an MMO without all the convenient features is because that core audience is very niche.

Noaani

ariatras wrote: »

I'm not going to quote you two up there with me. It's a bit of a hassle to remove the irrelevant parts.

You say a lot of casuals play this. And that's true. But -that- is why people blitz through quest. I'll explain the reasoning.

Casualisation of games has been a thing now for many years. You can see it all over the place, I'll give some examples.
World of Warcraft, like you mentioned. Kept adding tool after tool that made the game more casual. You know the ones, they've been argued to death. But the one I want to highlight specifically is markers. The reason you can blaze through quest text in WoW these days is because after you accept all the quests in a specific hub, you open the map to see where it all is. The areas are highlighted all nicely. Before, in 2004/2005 when Questie add-on was not a thing, you had to carefully read the text. Like you'd have to get his favourite food. A Zhevra carcass and place it at a specific place, the place was described in the quest's text. And that was it. It naturally made you read the quests. And, as a result, you learn more about the lore of the game. Nowadays they have to do it with cutscenes otherwise people won't remember any of the lore.
But it happens everywhere, not just WoW, look at the devolution of Morrowind to Skyrim.

From a business perspective, it makes sense for a game to want to 'reel in' the casuals. The retention of players will be lower by using these types of tools, so you have to get players to care in a different way. Ashes does it in the form of community projects. Like help build a metropolis node.

The problem, and reason why we won't see an MMO without all the convenient features is because that core audience is very niche.

Quest markers have definitely increased the number of people that just click through dialogue, for sure.

Thing is, there are two things players do to make this process fast. The first is that we are able to assume that the mobs the quest want us to kill are likely to be in the general direction that the quest chain is heading, so we can usually be fairly well assured that if we just grab all the quests and keep moving in the same direct we have been, we will find what we need to find. The second thing is that we have websites we can refer to if the above doesn't work.

Since we are talking about WoW, I'll carry on with it. WoW was many peoples first MMO. As such, many people didn't know the above two things. As such, many people wrongly assumed that you had to listen to the quest givers in order to know what to do with the quest. Many people in WoW got addons before they realized that there were already faster ways to quest than stopping and reading every quest.

Addons like Questie were a result of players wanting to click through quests and not realizing there were already alternatives - so the desire of the bulk of the playerbase to skip quest dialogue is somewhat apparent in the fact that they exist, imo.

Saljourn

There is an addon in World of Warcraft called Total Roleplay 3 (TRP3).
This single addon kept me playing for 4 years.
DEVS - please. Consider an in-game tool similar to TRP3.
This gave players the ability to create massive portfolios of their character's traits, characteristics, appearance, moods, history, and more.

Conrad

Saljourn wrote: »

There is an addon in World of Warcraft called Total Roleplay 3 (TRP3).
This single addon kept me playing for 4 years.
DEVS - please. Consider an in-game tool similar to TRP3.
This gave players the ability to create massive portfolios of their character's traits, characteristics, appearance, moods, history, and more.

Yeah, this sort of thing should be pretty easy to implement so I hope they will, at least late beta

wherediditrun

Noaani wrote: »

In the same way a tabletop game simply can't compete with an MMO for raid content in terms of complexity (unless you have several years worth of weekly sessions per encounter), MMO's simply can't compete with tabletop for the actual RP experience they offer.

People trying to mix either of these ruin both mediums.

How? Because your statement sounds more like an uninformed guess expressed as a statement of fact.
You can for sure have rather competitive cut throat content and roleplay at the same time.

The only thing which is necessary for roleplay is the rather strict and unavoidable sanctions for people breaking out of character in environments where other players may notice it without prior consent.

Removal of global chats as a game mechanic which makes no sense while from the perspective of game world helps a lot. Bet stuff like emotes and so are just a nice to have, not a necessity.

This cuts perhaps a bit different for some people. As in RP environment player based guilds do not make much sense. What you have is generally "factions" where membership of said faction is tied to players character, not to the player themselves.

Due to this character and player separation you generally end up with way healthier community overall. As people tend to less likely take things personally. It's also a lot more fun actually.. even if you like pvp stuff more. As it gives the "why" for everything and the action feel more meaningful from players perspective.

In my experience even people who at first are skeptical of it often grow to enjoy it with some help. As it quickly becomes apparent that roleplay is the player generated content. And given that there is no "me" in the world, but the "character" players are more free to create player driven events, stories, narratives in other terms player generated content while not tying their egos to it too much. Still happens, not as much though.

I hope we will have dedicated roleplay servers at some point. Ashes has a lot of potential in this regard unlike WoW for example, now will they use it? Time will tell.

Maezriel

Saljourn wrote: »

There is an addon in World of Warcraft called Total Roleplay 3 (TRP3).
This single addon kept me playing for 4 years.
DEVS - please. Consider an in-game tool similar to TRP3.
This gave players the ability to create massive portfolios of their character's traits, characteristics, appearance, moods, history, and more.

They already plan on it.

They want it to be a part of the Character Page w/ plans on an in-game browser to open up where you can read a character's backstory (through both achievements and player written pages) and other similar things found in mods like TRP and MyRP

Noaani

wherediditrun wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In the same way a tabletop game simply can't compete with an MMO for raid content in terms of complexity (unless you have several years worth of weekly sessions per encounter), MMO's simply can't compete with tabletop for the actual RP experience they offer.

People trying to mix either of these ruin both mediums.

How? Because your statement sounds more like an uninformed guess expressed as a statement of fact.
You can for sure have rather competitive cut throat content and roleplay at the same time.

I didn't say competitive or cut throat, I said complex.

A high raid in many games will generate 10,000 lines of ability data, each line being the result of at least 3 rolls of the dice.

How long do you think it would take to make that happen with a tabletop game?

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