More Dynamic Raid Battles?

One of the things that really lost me on other MMOs was Raid battle AI mechanics. We spends so much time getting our characters to a certain level, grind for gear, and put in collective evenings to get into it... and its literally 40 people standing in place spamming their spells/abilities until the boss loses enough HP to do something different.
Is it possible to implement enemy behaviors like seen in Bioware's Dragon Age Inquisition.... where the huge dragons would move around the environment to evade tanks.. or reposition up on a cliff to shoot down from above. Really taking advantage of the environment the artists created-- and give you a sense of intelligence behind these massive bosses.
This would make tank roles-- or classes with spells that pull/ensnare enemies even more important.. Let alone the battle will feel more dynamic and real! Their game was made almost 7 years ago... I imagine TD's and scripting have progressed enough to implement it in a MMO capacity.

Thoughts?

Example of a battle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBuUlDqaA5k

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maouw

Yes!
Living Breathing Dragons!
The current dragons in the Siege are a step in the right direction - but I think there's still so much to learn from Monster Hunter.

e.g. their mascot dragon Rathalos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spAnbRt1T8A

Maezriel

A few behaviors like this based on timers or health level shouldn't be out of the question, but there's a pretty hard ceiling to how hard Intrepid can make the bosses when you remember that they're all in an open PvP game.

Also it shouldn't ever be 40 people just standing in place when you need to make sure you're killing the other guilds that showed up for the raid.

Adaegus Wintermight

Maezriel wrote: »

A few behaviors like this based on timers or health level shouldn't be out of the question, but there's a pretty hard ceiling to how hard Intrepid can make the bosses when you remember that they're all in an open PvP game.

Also it shouldn't ever be 40 people just standing in place when you need to make sure you're killing the other guilds that showed up for the raid.

I think other raids would try and out DPS your raid in order to steal tag rather than actually fight the first raid. I'm not sure how well the corruption system is going to play with PvPvE

Azherae

Both these actually have a simple enough solution, but it takes really long to explain it.

Making it more like Monster Hunter wouldn't help, and I say this as a serious MHW player. The complexity of Monster Hunter comes from something else, which isn't reproducible in Ashes without destroying a core gameplay point.

The short version is that you can balance this sort of thing and make PvPvE more skilled by making a large portion of damage come from 'rotated skills' and a large amount of 'different non stacking DoT' (i.e. two different Cleric abilities with two different DoT, but you can't just put 4 instances of the same DoT using 4 Clerics)

The skill then becomes 'making sure your various DoT sources don't die, and have time to reapply it before the enemy group can apply the same DoT'.

Rogues would then focus on killing the enemy DoT sources, Tanks could tank and control mainly, Fighters and Rangers smack people and occasionally get to actually hit the thing.

Enemies that have 'high resistances to physical damage under most conditions', resistances or 'dangerous things that happen when too many people are hitting them in melee', but aren't damage sponges (HP wise) and can die to unstackable DoT.are the easiest way to make PvPvE without it being a numbers game or damage race.

The Poison Dragon in Siege already has this design, and the two Corrupted Ancients Servants(?) from that raid footage we saw before have quite a bit of it.

So the skill ceiling in terms of 'overall danger' can actually be really high, the Poison Dragon's design indicates a probable path forward.

Ryonis

Well that might bring the idea of the boss retreating or repositioning itself away from a skilled tank even more useful. If for instance a boss digs underground to flee for a minute.. or fly above to shoot down from above (only being reachable by ranged) that would give rival guilds a moment to battle full out in order to thin out the opposing teams dmg/heals/dot sources. That way the boss just doesn't stand still while people fight around it-- or through the chaos/distraction of the pvp aspects... just wipe the entire map.

Azherae

Right, that's what the Poison Dragon does. If you haven't watched it yet, there's a good bit of footage of it on the Ashes of Creation Youtube, the April Development Update.

Grihm

As far as dynamic fights goes, i think it was Lord of the rings online that for a while had GM´s take over the control of world bosses, and play against the groups of players that came after it.

Would love to see that, perhaps as a monthly feature or such.

Maezriel

Grihm wrote: »

As far as dynamic fights goes, i think it was Lord of the rings online that for a while had GM´s take over the control of world bosses, and play against the groups of players that came after it.

Would love to see that, perhaps as a monthly feature or such.

Isn't this essentially the Monster Coin system?

Solvryn

When Dragon flies on cliff, guild comes along and kills you all and highjacks the fight.

Grihm

Maezriel wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

As far as dynamic fights goes, i think it was Lord of the rings online that for a while had GM´s take over the control of world bosses, and play against the groups of players that came after it.

Would love to see that, perhaps as a monthly feature or such.

Isn't this essentially the Monster Coin system?

I started to try and catch up just about a month or two ago, so sadly im not up to speed on what that system is.

Maezriel

Grihm wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

As far as dynamic fights goes, i think it was Lord of the rings online that for a while had GM´s take over the control of world bosses, and play against the groups of players that came after it.

Would love to see that, perhaps as a monthly feature or such.

Isn't this essentially the Monster Coin system?

I started to try and catch up just about a month or two ago, so sadly im not up to speed on what that system is.

They're specific events where players that posses a Monster Coin can turn into a mob, ranging from a zombie horde to a full dragon, and then attack cities. They're not sieges and as such can't completely destroy a Node but they can hinder the use of certain buildings if they're not stopped in time.

Ryonis

Thats an interesting prospect.... My only concern would be wealthy or "viral" guilds with huge populations of possibly less skills players would have more "coin" resources to tilt the battle in their favor too easily.
That is cool though that a quest you completed together as a guild/city unrelated to a seige or that particular boss.... could help you in battle.
That would definitely add a lot of nice complexity... but then we still might just get like.... 1 dragon standing still swiping at another dragon you summonded... standing still.

maouw

Azherae wrote: »

Both these actually have a simple enough solution, but it takes really long to explain it.

Making it more like Monster Hunter wouldn't help, and I say this as a serious MHW player. The complexity of Monster Hunter comes from something else, which isn't reproducible in Ashes without destroying a core gameplay point.

The short version is that you can balance this sort of thing and make PvPvE more skilled by making a large portion of damage come from 'rotated skills' and a large amount of 'different non stacking DoT' (i.e. two different Cleric abilities with two different DoT, but you can't just put 4 instances of the same DoT using 4 Clerics)

The skill then becomes 'making sure your various DoT sources don't die, and have time to reapply it before the enemy group can apply the same DoT'.

Rogues would then focus on killing the enemy DoT sources, Tanks could tank and control mainly, Fighters and Rangers smack people and occasionally get to actually hit the thing.

Enemies that have 'high resistances to physical damage under most conditions', resistances or 'dangerous things that happen when too many people are hitting them in melee', but aren't damage sponges (HP wise) and can die to unstackable DoT.are the easiest way to make PvPvE without it being a numbers game or damage race.

The Poison Dragon in Siege already has this design, and the two Corrupted Ancients Servants(?) from that raid footage we saw before have quite a bit of it.

So the skill ceiling in terms of 'overall danger' can actually be really high, the Poison Dragon's design indicates a probable path forward.

Oooh, I like this - non-stackables to promote diversifying roles.

Azherae

A lot of the things most people who want to play Ashes, see as problems in other games, are actually already solved. They're not hard to solve design wise, not at all.

The friction comes when you make a game that does not have Ashes' design philosophy, you aren't 'allowed' to use the solutions, because you are making a carnival ride experience and not a rodeo.

A Carnival Ride game minimizes the amount of time a person spends preparing to do something, either by collecting resources, allies, or strategizing. Games that push further toward this end try to make sure that you don't even need a cohesive party, actual community, or even consumables.

A Rodeo style game, you spend a lot of time preparing and considering how to use your preparations optimally, and what happens as your skill increases is not 'this boss has become mechanically easier because I have more gear' but 'this boss has become easier because I have more skill, so I can spend less time and resources on preparation, making the boss more profitable to fight'.

This is good because it means that with enough preparation, nearly anyone gets to have the experience. Make sure you have the right food buffs, builds, a really tightly tuned party, potions, plans for emergency situations, gear that is outside of your normal but is tuned toward countering the boss' mechanics even if you have to give up some of your damage or usual combat style, etc.

It might take a small group a month to prep to run the fight. They might still even lose. But 'overwhelming a boss with resources' is always an acceptable style because it means the economy grinds along, but more skilled players can define their skill as 'I don't need all that stuff to do this'.

In PvP open world raiding, the more prepared group has an advantage for multiple reasons. The unprepared might be able to beat the boss, but they can't endure the boss under the pressure of PvP. The prepared, especially given how MMOs work, often can endure the boss and at least outlast their opponents, it's just even more costly.

In absolute open world 'fortunate spawn' type scenarios, we might still even see Corruption. I've seen no indication that it won't exist. That means that the person who comes to 'steal the boss' and kills off three people who don't fight back, now become the optimal target. Now they can drop gear.

Cooperation would be better in that case, up to a point.

tl;dr this is already solved by Ashes' design philosopies, they just need things like Tavern Buffs, Guild Buffs and other consumables to have 20-25% impact on your effectiveness in boss fights.

Maezriel

Azherae wrote: »

A lot of the things most people who want to play Ashes, see as problems in other games, are actually already solved. They're not hard to solve design wise, not at all.

The friction comes when you make a game that does not have Ashes' design philosophy, you aren't 'allowed' to use the solutions, because you are making a carnival ride experience and not a rodeo.

A Carnival Ride game minimizes the amount of time a person spends preparing to do something, either by collecting resources, allies, or strategizing. Games that push further toward this end try to make sure that you don't even need a cohesive party, actual community, or even consumables.

A Rodeo style game, you spend a lot of time preparing and considering how to use your preparations optimally, and what happens as your skill increases is not 'this boss has become mechanically easier because I have more gear' but 'this boss has become easier because I have more skill, so I can spend less time and resources on preparation, making the boss more profitable to fight'.

This is good because it means that with enough preparation, nearly anyone gets to have the experience. Make sure you have the right food buffs, builds, a really tightly tuned party, potions, plans for emergency situations, gear that is outside of your normal but is tuned toward countering the boss' mechanics even if you have to give up some of your damage or usual combat style, etc.

It might take a small group a month to prep to run the fight. They might still even lose. But 'overwhelming a boss with resources' is always an acceptable style because it means the economy grinds along, but more skilled players can define their skill as 'I don't need all that stuff to do this'.

In PvP open world raiding, the more prepared group has an advantage for multiple reasons. The unprepared might be able to beat the boss, but they can't endure the boss under the pressure of PvP. The prepared, especially given how MMOs work, often can endure the boss and at least outlast their opponents, it's just even more costly.

In absolute open world 'fortunate spawn' type scenarios, we might still even see Corruption. I've seen no indication that it won't exist. That means that the person who comes to 'steal the boss' and kills off three people who don't fight back, now become the optimal target. Now they can drop gear.

Cooperation would be better in that case, up to a point.

tl;dr this is already solved by Ashes' design philosopies, they just need things like Tavern Buffs, Guild Buffs and other consumables to have 20-25% impact on your effectiveness in boss fights.

Does Corruption solve it?

We, hell Intrepid doesn't fully know how Corruption will work. As of right now in testing I only become Corrupted on the killing blow.

Until we have very clear answers to the following questions we can't really say Corruption will be the system that lets harder overworld encounters exists:

* Do we know exactly what'll trigger Corruption? Is it death or specifically player kill?

* If I CC a person in front of a raid boss and they die do I get the same amount of Corruption as if I fought and killed them 1v1?

* If I only do 5-10% damage to someone but they turn around and yeet themselves off a cliff do I gain the same amount as I would in a full fight?

If all it takes is one or two players casting CC to cause a wipe (as it would in any instanced raid) then that kind of limits how hard the boss can be regardless of prep time.

Azherae

So I take your point as...

"Corruption needs to incorporate more accountability for the resultant death, than just last hit, if bosses are to be more difficult."

Agreed. I feel that if Corruption continues to be 'only if I personally last-hit you', then that system itself is flawed in many ways, so I just assumed, however prematurely, that it wouldn't work like that.

Maezriel

Azherae wrote: »

So I take your point as...

"Corruption needs to incorporate more accountability for the resultant death, than just last hit, if bosses are to be more difficult."

Agreed. I feel that if Corruption continues to be 'only if I personally last-hit you', then that system itself is flawed in many ways, so I just assumed, however prematurely, that it wouldn't work like that.

Mostly that we can't say that Corruption is the mechanic that will prevent griefing in raids until it's better balanced.

Even w/ that there's that whole "risk v reward" that the game is built around. If raid bosses are mechanically tight encounters similar to in an instanced raid then the raiders are risking all of their preparation, PvP on the way to and during the fight, PvP returning from the fight, any XP debt, corruption, etc from those fights to include losing the very mats they just worked to get from the boss...and all I risk to stop it all is a bit of corruption and a few CC abilities.

akabear

Thoroughly enjoyed Dragon Age Inquisition.
Agree on the boss AI.. was memorable.
Kept playing just for the inter-party banter
Did not think so much of the quests at times requiring you to go at distance for no real reason that to add more play time to your efforts.
Characters, mobs, landscapes all great!
Cannot wait until they release the next one

Any elements replicated in Ashes would be welcomed!

akabear

Side note: I remember my first major raid in L2.. one thing that stuck out from that from all other game raids since was that during the raid, actions of the boss that impacted me, as a player, were different than in the rest of the game.

It was year or two into the game, it was a first to be knocked down and slide across the floor.

That kind of experience, made perhaps particular to a boss with some action / impact / consequence to a player that would not happen elsewhere.. to make the experience unique.

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