Bounties to Hunt

With all of the thread activity on bounties and player behavior, what are going to be the benefits of actually PvPing in an open world MMO? What will be an incentive to be a heel/villain in someones narrative and actually PK someone?

It seems that it'll be titled on the end of the bounty side, but what about balance? What about walking in front of a purple fight as a Passive Player and deliberately trying to give someone corruption? How do you balance these scenarios?

It seems Intrepid has to consider that some of us are just old school and it really has nothing to do with being mean or griefing, rather if I'm in my grind spot and someone tries to shove me out the way, I am absolutely going to drop that player and if they bring their friends/guildies, I'll drop them too. It's just old school.

If theres a KOS list to hunt, people are going to hunt it. Does it really have to come down to keeping war dec's on an entire guild for the actions of one or two players?

I hope the corruption system is carefully crafted as to punish griefers however, doesn't completely shut down PvPing in the open world. There's more than one way to grief and two people flagged as purple calling in someone to stand between em to get killed to turn a player red should also be considered.

Some guilds want to protect their business interests, I know that I'll protect my guilds business interests such as farmers, crafters, etc that do not want to engage in open world PvP, even if that means me being an aggressor.

Just thoughts to consider.

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Azherae

Since the game is not balanced around 1v1 in the first place, the benefits are as described. You get some of the drops from the other person.

You're asking the wrong question, in a way.

When someone wants to run away from you, have you achieved your goal by being such a strong PvPer that they run?

If 'an opponent who runs away' doesn't achieve your goal, then your goal is less supported.

If your opponent chooses to die just to give you Corruption instead of escaping if they can, then there is probably a problem.

Other than that, it's not an issue. You probably barely get to choose this anyway, since if you're a Mage, you'll lose to most Tanks, Rangers and Fighters, even if you get quite a bit better than them, and most Clerics and Summoners will just run away, etc.

People will only care about open world 1v1 if they know the matchup is even, and they have nothing much to lose and can't escape, so probably about a quarter of the time at best.

George_Black

I dont think you have look at any previous threads that are concerned with the effectiveness of the corruption system or flagging safeguards.

Do you rly think that they havent planned around accidental PK?

Noaani

Karatos wrote: »

It's just old school.

So are VHS tapes, flip phones, music on cassette and monochrome computers.

Just because it's old school, doesn't mean it needs to remain.

If you are in a grinding spot, and someone comes along wanting to grind there as well, what is stopping you working with that person rather than against - so you both achieve your current goal faster?

In many "old school" games, this wasn't really supported. The idea was for players to always be in conflict with each other - giving players a reason to work together is not really conductive to keeping your players in a state of conflict with each other.

This is old school thinking and old school game development. There is no reason it needs to remain in a new game.

With specifics in regards to Ashes, assuming you are a player of average or higher intelligence, you are probably grinding in an area that will see your node gain experience. As such, the person that comes wanting to grind in that spot as well almost definitely has that one goal in common with you - you both want that grinding spot because you both want to get experience to the node that the grinding spot will get experience to. As such, it is already in your best interests - at least in one regard - to at least leave that player to their own business and perhaps even to work together.

neuroguy

It is indeed a well crafted system. It will be quite hard to gain corruption unless you are being a dick, and it certainly will be ~impossible to build up enough corruption to drop your gear if you are not in fact being a dick. Killing players way below your level or players who refuse to fight back (there are resource drop consequences to dying without flagging PvP harsher than just doing your best fighting back I believe) are the only ways to build up corruption, and having a bit will not have a swarm of bounty hunters coming after you. In any case, we will see it in action with lots of time before launch to tweak it around. The bounty system is what I suspect will have its expectations changed by players, the corruption system should be fine I predict.

Goatrek

I find it difficult to comment on the corruption system before we know how the final tuning will look like as it will play a great deal in setting the balance between punishing real griefers or normal world pvp behaviour. If its overbearing and kills any and all ganking/spontaneous world pvp its gonna suck for people like me and OP here.

Maezriel

Karatos wrote: »

What about walking in front of a purple fight as a Passive Player and deliberately trying to give someone corruption?

Non combatants can lose materials on death. Now in the case of someone significantly lower level than yourself or who purposefully took a ton of damage w/ nothing in their inventory walked up to a fight in an effort to make either combatants corrupted there's absolutely nothing stopping the both of you from just walking away and denying the troll their fun.

There's also no indication that Corruption will be so impactful that it only takes a single PK to ruin your day.

George_Black

Maezriel wrote: »

Karatos wrote: »

What about walking in front of a purple fight as a Passive Player and deliberately trying to give someone corruption?

Non combatants can lose materials on death. Now in the case of someone significantly lower level than yourself or who purposefully took a ton of damage w/ nothing in their inventory walked up to a fight in an effort to make either combatants corrupted there's absolutely nothing stopping the both of you from just walking away and denying the troll their fun.

There's also no indication that Corruption will be so impactful that it only takes a single PK to ruin your day.

You are getting carried away.
The devs will not allow a passive player to delibatetly force a purple player to PK them, gaining corruption.

Maezriel

George Black wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

Karatos wrote: »

What about walking in front of a purple fight as a Passive Player and deliberately trying to give someone corruption?

Non combatants can lose materials on death. Now in the case of someone significantly lower level than yourself or who purposefully took a ton of damage w/ nothing in their inventory walked up to a fight in an effort to make either combatants corrupted there's absolutely nothing stopping the both of you from just walking away and denying the troll their fun.

There's also no indication that Corruption will be so impactful that it only takes a single PK to ruin your day.

You are getting carried away.
The devs will not allow a passive player to delibatetly force a purple player to PK them, gaining corruption.

I'm simply giving a what if scenario of a player going out of their way to try and subvert the system b/c it was something @George Black was asking about...so even in this near impossible scenario it's not going to really do anything.

Although a more likely scenario would be someone trying to circumvent Corruption by ccing or drawing mobs into a noncombatant and watching the show as currently Corruption is applied on the death blow.

Solvryn

Azherae wrote: »

You're asking the wrong question, in a way.

No, I'm asking these questions with a twofold purpose. Everyone wants to be a bounty hunter, but in reality there's' going to be more bounty hunters then people who are corrupted.

As of now I'm going off the wiki and the comments Steven has made. It's deliberately supposed to be an anti-griefing system. I just hope it's well crafted and doesn't stop some of us from hunting kos lists.

I doubt that the balance is going to mean being disadvantaged means no chance in hell.

Noaani wrote: »

Karatos wrote: »

It's just old school.

So are VHS tapes, flip phones, music on cassette and monochrome computers.

Just because it's old school, doesn't mean it needs to remain.

If you are in a grinding spot, and someone comes along wanting to grind there as well, what is stopping you working with that person rather than against - so you both achieve your current goal faster?

In many "old school" games, this wasn't really supported. The idea was for players to always be in conflict with each other - giving players a reason to work together is not really conductive to keeping your players in a state of conflict with each other.

This is old school thinking and old school game development. There is no reason it needs to remain in a new game.

With specifics in regards to Ashes, assuming you are a player of average or higher intelligence, you are probably grinding in an area that will see your node gain experience. As such, the person that comes wanting to grind in that spot as well almost definitely has that one goal in common with you - you both want that grinding spot because you both want to get experience to the node that the grinding spot will get experience to. As such, it is already in your best interests - at least in one regard - to at least leave that player to their own business and perhaps even to work together.

If we were talking technology, I use new tech and the best computers. Old School PK just means I come from the full loot era and will be the better one to adopt in most situations, as I said in my thread. I will protect my assets so I wouldn't be destroying anyone inside the node I'm at.

Conflict will be in Ashes as Steven as stated and resources are going to be limited. They won't be abundant and some resources will be in very specific places of the world. Probably not near a node of my own. Which is a bit of the source of this thread.

All things to think about.

Azherae

Okay, guess we'll know in a few months.

I kept assuming you were talking about things like fair PvP, challenges, or building interactions within the game flow itself.

If the main focus here is 'can I open world people on a list', sure.

But my point was moreso that other people are going to just run away from you, if you're as 'old school strong' as you imply. This happens in every competitive game where there's no disadvantage to doing so, even in games where every 'encounter' is explicitly a 'duel' (fighting games, Absolver, etc)

So there's no way a sensible player who knows they are even on a list, is going to stick around and PvP you unless they 'know they can beat you due to having class advantage'. And if they know that you have advantage, they'll run, and almost certainly get away.

Like you said though, this is about 'a desire to bounty hunt'. So I assume you will spec into Ranger/Rogue or something that can actually keep up with and assassinate people regardless of if they run.

Grihm

Karatos wrote: »

No, I'm asking these questions with a twofold purpose. Everyone wants to be a bounty hunter, but in reality there's' going to be more bounty hunters then people who are corrupted.

As of now I'm going off the wiki and the comments Steven has made. It's deliberately supposed to be an anti-griefing system. I just hope it's well crafted and doesn't stop some of us from hunting kos lists.

I doubt that the balance is going to mean being disadvantaged means no chance in hell.

1: No, everyone does not.
2: A KOS list is a personal thing, not a game feature. You can for sure have a list if you want, but that´s as said..personal, and you cannot expect the game to be catered around it.

If you want to pursue your KOS list, then i´m sure you can do that in Sieges or what other options are available. Just going after someone because you think they are deserving of such, that is on you.
In the end, it´s going to be words against words, so no one will really know what´s what part from you and your enemy.

EDIT: If you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to.

Dygz

Yeah... I don't think the Bounty Hunting system will help you with your personal KOS list.

Azherae

Grihm wrote: »

Karatos wrote: »

No, I'm asking these questions with a twofold purpose. Everyone wants to be a bounty hunter, but in reality there's' going to be more bounty hunters then people who are corrupted.

As of now I'm going off the wiki and the comments Steven has made. It's deliberately supposed to be an anti-griefing system. I just hope it's well crafted and doesn't stop some of us from hunting kos lists.

I doubt that the balance is going to mean being disadvantaged means no chance in hell.

1: No, everyone does not.
2: A KOS list is a personal thing, not a game feature. You can for sure have a list if you want, but that´s as said..personal, and you cannot expect the game to be catered around it.

If you want to pursue your KOS list, then i´m sure you can do that in Sieges or what other options are available. Just going after someone because you think they are deserving of such, that is on you.
In the end, it´s going to be words against words, so no one will really know what´s what part from you and your enemy.

EDIT: If you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to.

I mean, that's easy enough to conceptualize (not implement).

When you are killed by someone and don't fight back, you get two items in your Inventory. Memory of Rage and Memory of Despair. These are just items with the killer's in game ID (backend) attached. These items are tradeable and also consumable.

Using either item while engaged with the player whose ID is associated allows that player to be killed without Corruption even if they don't fight back. If you wanna be meaner, make it so it treats them as Corrupted, but only for you, unless they flag up.

You can do a whole quest to change Memory of Rage + Memory of Despair to 'Grudge of the Sworn Enemy' which isn't tradeable but doesn't expire (has to be recharged or something).

Someone griefing you to the point where you report them but the GMs can't quite justify a ban? You can request that you be granted Memories of them instead. Not strong enough to kill them yourself, or just don't want to? Hand the Memories off to your Bounty Hunter friend and sponsor them to go do the quest to get the Grudge.

Now this person is KoS for whoever has the Grudge, no penalty. If they want to do the same thing, just gotta not flag up.

Non stackable item. Must be in inventory and probably in hotbar to be used during the fight. So you can have as many Grudges as you want as long as you have the inventory space.

New school is in.

Taleof2Cities

Maybe it's just me, but I don't need special inventoried items or quests to know which player IDs are on my "Bounty List".

Solvryn

Azherae wrote: »

Okay, guess we'll know in a few months.

I kept assuming you were talking about things like fair PvP, challenges, or building interactions within the game flow itself.

If the main focus here is 'can I open world people on a list', sure.

But my point was moreso that other people are going to just run away from you, if you're as 'old school strong' as you imply. This happens in every competitive game where there's no disadvantage to doing so, even in games where every 'encounter' is explicitly a 'duel' (fighting games, Absolver, etc)

So there's no way a sensible player who knows they are even on a list, is going to stick around and PvP you unless they 'know they can beat you due to having class advantage'. And if they know that you have advantage, they'll run, and almost certainly get away.

Like you said though, this is about 'a desire to bounty hunt'. So I assume you will spec into Ranger/Rogue or something that can actually keep up with and assassinate people regardless of if they run.

No, I'm simply talking about people hunting corrupted people operating out of a military node, which is what bounty hunting is as a feature.

It seems that there are going to be more bounty hunters than there are corrupted players.

Grihm wrote: »

Karatos wrote: »

No, I'm asking these questions with a twofold purpose. Everyone wants to be a bounty hunter, but in reality there's' going to be more bounty hunters then people who are corrupted.

As of now I'm going off the wiki and the comments Steven has made. It's deliberately supposed to be an anti-griefing system. I just hope it's well crafted and doesn't stop some of us from hunting kos lists.

I doubt that the balance is going to mean being disadvantaged means no chance in hell.

1: No, everyone does not.
2: A KOS list is a personal thing, not a game feature. You can for sure have a list if you want, but that´s as said..personal, and you cannot expect the game to be catered around it.

If you want to pursue your KOS list, then i´m sure you can do that in Sieges or what other options are available. Just going after someone because you think they are deserving of such, that is on you.
In the end, it´s going to be words against words, so no one will really know what´s what part from you and your enemy.

EDIT: If you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to.

Between Bounty Hunters and corrupted players, there will be more Bounty Hunters than corrupted players I think. So when a Military node generates "hunt a corrupted player down list", there's going to be very little reason to go corrupted and a major feature for Military Nodes will defeat itself in purpose.

Noaani

Karatos wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

You're asking the wrong question, in a way.

No, I'm asking these questions with a twofold purpose. Everyone wants to be a bounty hunter, but in reality there's' going to be more bounty hunters then people who are corrupted.

As of now I'm going off the wiki and the comments Steven has made. It's deliberately supposed to be an anti-griefing system. I just hope it's well crafted and doesn't stop some of us from hunting kos lists.

I doubt that the balance is going to mean being disadvantaged means no chance in hell.

Noaani wrote: »

Karatos wrote: »

It's just old school.

So are VHS tapes, flip phones, music on cassette and monochrome computers.

Just because it's old school, doesn't mean it needs to remain.

If you are in a grinding spot, and someone comes along wanting to grind there as well, what is stopping you working with that person rather than against - so you both achieve your current goal faster?

In many "old school" games, this wasn't really supported. The idea was for players to always be in conflict with each other - giving players a reason to work together is not really conductive to keeping your players in a state of conflict with each other.

This is old school thinking and old school game development. There is no reason it needs to remain in a new game.

With specifics in regards to Ashes, assuming you are a player of average or higher intelligence, you are probably grinding in an area that will see your node gain experience. As such, the person that comes wanting to grind in that spot as well almost definitely has that one goal in common with you - you both want that grinding spot because you both want to get experience to the node that the grinding spot will get experience to. As such, it is already in your best interests - at least in one regard - to at least leave that player to their own business and perhaps even to work together.

If we were talking technology, I use new tech and the best computers. Old School PK just means I come from the full loot era and will be the better one to adopt in most situations, as I said in my thread. I will protect my assets so I wouldn't be destroying anyone inside the node I'm at.

Conflict will be in Ashes as Steven as stated and resources are going to be limited. They won't be abundant and some resources will be in very specific places of the world. Probably not near a node of my own. Which is a bit of the source of this thread.

All things to think about.

I was more pointing out that old school things dont necessarily need to stay around.

Sure Ashes will have conflict. A lot of it.

However, Steven also wants Ashes to have diplomacy, politics.

In the scale of individual players, this is simply talking to someone you come across to see if your goals align, and potentially working together towards them.

Attacking a player that wants to grind in the same spot tou want to grind in is not automatically the best solution - and often times may be the worst course of action you could take.

So, the old school idea of doing that as your first course of action doesnt necessarily need to stay around in Ashes.

There will be times when you would want to do that, absolutely. However since the two of you likely have the larger goal of leveling up a specific node in common, there is already a reason to work together, rather than against each other.

While resources in the game may be somewhat scarce, they wont be as scarce as metropolis level nodes.

Grihm

Azherae wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

Karatos wrote: »

No, I'm asking these questions with a twofold purpose. Everyone wants to be a bounty hunter, but in reality there's' going to be more bounty hunters then people who are corrupted.

As of now I'm going off the wiki and the comments Steven has made. It's deliberately supposed to be an anti-griefing system. I just hope it's well crafted and doesn't stop some of us from hunting kos lists.

I doubt that the balance is going to mean being disadvantaged means no chance in hell.

1: No, everyone does not.
2: A KOS list is a personal thing, not a game feature. You can for sure have a list if you want, but that´s as said..personal, and you cannot expect the game to be catered around it.

If you want to pursue your KOS list, then i´m sure you can do that in Sieges or what other options are available. Just going after someone because you think they are deserving of such, that is on you.
In the end, it´s going to be words against words, so no one will really know what´s what part from you and your enemy.

EDIT: If you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to.

I mean, that's easy enough to conceptualize (not implement).

When you are killed by someone and don't fight back, you get two items in your Inventory. Memory of Rage and Memory of Despair. These are just items with the killer's in game ID (backend) attached. These items are tradeable and also consumable.

Using either item while engaged with the player whose ID is associated allows that player to be killed without Corruption even if they don't fight back. If you wanna be meaner, make it so it treats them as Corrupted, but only for you, unless they flag up.

You can do a whole quest to change Memory of Rage + Memory of Despair to 'Grudge of the Sworn Enemy' which isn't tradeable but doesn't expire (has to be recharged or something).

Someone griefing you to the point where you report them but the GMs can't quite justify a ban? You can request that you be granted Memories of them instead. Not strong enough to kill them yourself, or just don't want to? Hand the Memories off to your Bounty Hunter friend and sponsor them to go do the quest to get the Grudge.

Now this person is KoS for whoever has the Grudge, no penalty. If they want to do the same thing, just gotta not flag up.

Non stackable item. Must be in inventory and probably in hotbar to be used during the fight. So you can have as many Grudges as you want as long as you have the inventory space.

New school is in.

You can solve that in sieges and all other pvp options. You don´t need yet another.
I know many are so eager to get to do what ever PVP they want ( They want ) in the world, but tell me this.

How does another PVP option benefit me as a PVE and roleplayer?
If you can ensure me of a way this benefits me, that has one area for my gamestyle " then sure... i can support you. But first... tell me the benefit this have for me.

Azherae

Grihm wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

Karatos wrote: »

No, I'm asking these questions with a twofold purpose. Everyone wants to be a bounty hunter, but in reality there's' going to be more bounty hunters then people who are corrupted.

As of now I'm going off the wiki and the comments Steven has made. It's deliberately supposed to be an anti-griefing system. I just hope it's well crafted and doesn't stop some of us from hunting kos lists.

I doubt that the balance is going to mean being disadvantaged means no chance in hell.

1: No, everyone does not.
2: A KOS list is a personal thing, not a game feature. You can for sure have a list if you want, but that´s as said..personal, and you cannot expect the game to be catered around it.

If you want to pursue your KOS list, then i´m sure you can do that in Sieges or what other options are available. Just going after someone because you think they are deserving of such, that is on you.
In the end, it´s going to be words against words, so no one will really know what´s what part from you and your enemy.

EDIT: If you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to.

I mean, that's easy enough to conceptualize (not implement).

When you are killed by someone and don't fight back, you get two items in your Inventory. Memory of Rage and Memory of Despair. These are just items with the killer's in game ID (backend) attached. These items are tradeable and also consumable.

Using either item while engaged with the player whose ID is associated allows that player to be killed without Corruption even if they don't fight back. If you wanna be meaner, make it so it treats them as Corrupted, but only for you, unless they flag up.

You can do a whole quest to change Memory of Rage + Memory of Despair to 'Grudge of the Sworn Enemy' which isn't tradeable but doesn't expire (has to be recharged or something).

Someone griefing you to the point where you report them but the GMs can't quite justify a ban? You can request that you be granted Memories of them instead. Not strong enough to kill them yourself, or just don't want to? Hand the Memories off to your Bounty Hunter friend and sponsor them to go do the quest to get the Grudge.

Now this person is KoS for whoever has the Grudge, no penalty. If they want to do the same thing, just gotta not flag up.

Non stackable item. Must be in inventory and probably in hotbar to be used during the fight. So you can have as many Grudges as you want as long as you have the inventory space.

New school is in.

You can solve that in sieges and all other pvp options. You don´t need yet another.
I know many are so eager to get to do what ever PVP they want ( They want ) in the world, but tell me this.

How does another PVP option benefit me as a PVE and roleplayer?
If you can ensure me of a way this benefits me, that has one area for my gamestyle " then sure... i can support you. But first... tell me the benefit this have for me.

I actually don't care about this. You said "if you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to" so I came up with a system.

If your point is 'justify your wish to me', I don't have a wish on this matter, was following on what you seemed to be saying.

Grihm

Azherae wrote: »

I actually don't care about this. You said "if you can come up with a system that could allow you to have KOS pvp in the open, shoot. I think that would be a valid suggestion to listen to" so I came up with a system.

If your point is 'justify your wish to me', I don't have a wish on this matter, was following on what you seemed to be saying.

You actually don´t care?
My " point " is you have PVP options in plenty, and you do not need to add another. This is an MMORPG, not a fortnite match with only one purpose. I said if you could state how this would work side by side and not break the PVE side, then sure... i could be behind that. However, if you want it, you need to consider all sides, because we are sharing one game.

Just wondering how you would say this is not getting in the way of pve or roleplay, and why cant you deal with this where PVP is the main focus?

Azherae

I don't care at all. I don't PvP normally, if I did, I'd just accept the corruption.

How it works on the PvE side? The other person had to kill me first. I actually meant that they had to do it in open world since that was what we were discussing, but I don't see much harm in it the other way either, it'd just be complicated.

If a person keeps killing you whenever they see you, taking the Corruption, and then working it off, because they are higher level, or your class isn't built for PvP and can't fight back, you could give someone else one free pass to kill that player for you when they see them, no questions asked, no penalty.

That person literally counts as 'my sworn enemy', RP wise. Or someone who protects me, gets to consider them 'sworn enemy' for doing that to me constantly when I can't fight back.

I see this as entirely a benefit to PvE. Wouldn't you hate having to sit around at a dungeon's entrance because your nemesis who kills you constantly is just sitting there waiting for you to go in and then kill you when you start fighting? You could call someone more powerful to kill them, but that person might get Corruption and it could be a trap.

I was suggesting 'the ability to exact vengeance on a killer even if they were no longer technically Corrupted'.

Child Item