Weapon Size

I was reading a tweet by the Ashes account and they were talking about the new armor that has red fire in the chest; and someone under the tweet asked about the weapon and why does it look so small and if there is a standard size for weapons or if they can scale.

So my question to the intrepid team and general discussion what do you think about having enlarged weapons for melee fighters.

some examples that come to mind are the dynasty warrior characters and their array of different weapons and sizes.

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Comments

Tyranthraxus

Over-sized weapons are overrated. It'd be nice to have high-fantasy without having Anime-sized weapons.

That's your weapon?! Have fun at the chiropractor's office twice a week for the rest of your life....

How many of your enemies are standing still for a full minute so you can balance that over your head into a striking position?

Grihm

As far as big weapons go, i would say it also depends on the character wielding it.
When going to the max, i would vote for a stop at around these.

Marcet

If you ask me, yes, I like big ass weapons. But if they take the more realistic way and make them smaller/lighter I'll still love it.

Conrad

They should have a fine balance between fantasy and realism. Warhammer Fantasy (not Shit of Sigmar) does a lot of concept right and it's a good idea to take inspirations from them. Axes on dwarves being a good example as mentioned before. Dwarves bulky and strong and probably could 1h a much bigger axe than a human.
It's important to remember, realism gets boring fast, but mixing realism and fantasy opens many gates.

Vhaeyne

Conrad wrote: »

Warhammer Fantasy (not Shit of Sigmar)

LOL, While I agree that the old WH Fantasy had cooler lore, I tend to have more fun with the AOS rules.

That said, I always liked the concept of verisimilitude being the focus in fantasy. As you said, once you can suspend disbelief and agree that the bulky dwarfs make sense as a possible race. It is easy to buy into them being able to hold that larger weapon with their beefy arms.

Grihm

As for realism, i´d say that´s out the window pretty fast considering we are gonna run around in plate and chainmail at full speed.
However, i see " realism " in this case more on the topic of " does this seem reasonable " rather than " King Steve of old did in fact have this two handed throwing shield as proven by an archaeology find ".

Also, at some point, a weapon turns it´s own page. Goes from
1: a Weapon
2: a game weapon
3: a big fantasy weapon
4: JRPG

I hope to see the list end at step 2 max.
If any oversized ones need to be in the game, polearms, halberds etc would work.

angelicshiya

So tired of these realism arguments. as stated by @Tyranthraxus and his chiropractor "joke"... like we're fighting dragons and casting meteors. Your argument is that a weapon that is oversized isn't realistic and they will need to go to the doctor or will be to slow for enemies. Well I would argue that casting fireballs is unrealistic and that you would burn your hand off.

Anyway difference in opinion, I don't need them to be gargantuan, just normal to plus size.

Grihm

I feel there are differences between a massive " reasonably " built weapon, and when it turns just way too big. It also does not help when a character is build like a spruce twig and wields something a DeathWatch Chapter Master would have trouble lifting with two hands.

Yuyukoyay

I don't see why this can't be tied to transmog. Since it is going to be in the game then it kinda ruins the pure feel to the game anyway. So you might as well let people scale the weapons to a specific limit. Some races are going to be smaller than the average size of some of these weapons. While some weapons are often scaled to the user a lot of two handed weapons weren't. It was seen as training to grow into being able to control a weapon that massive. Each one for different purposes.

Dual wield was never really a thing seriously done. A lot of games use that and that is more ridiculous than using Final Fantasy 7 weapons. xD

I wouldn't take a big stance on it unless you are going to severely limit transmog. Since transmog is going to make certain parts of the game regarding how weapons look feel stupid anyway.

Regarding weapons I would put effort into making all weapon models in the game look good. It's only important that better weapons look more cool, but that doesn't have to be done by making lower level weapons all look stupid as well. xD

Merek

I think the head of the axe is rather small, it could use a slight increase overall. I'm not interested in Final Fantasy sized weapons, but they should be intimidating.

A small framed woman with a two-handed sword, probably a Claymore.

A dwarf with a hammer.

I'd say these proportions are good. However If realism is of concern, the axe from the tweet would break upon impact. The point where it is attached is far too thin and definitely weak.

Conrad

Grihm wrote: »

As for realism, i´d say that´s out the window pretty fast considering we are gonna run around in plate and chainmail at full speed.

Actually you can semi do that. Pathfinder actually has pretty realistic rules for that, as in you lose like... 5ft of movement in heavy armour I believe? That's pretty accurate.

Conrad

Merek wrote: »

I think the head of the axe is rather small, it could use a slight increase overall. I'm not interested in Final Fantasy sized weapons, but they should be intimidating.

A small framed woman with a two-handed sword, probably a Claymore.

A dwarf with a hammer.

I'd say these proportions are good. However If realism is of concern, the axe from the tweet would break upon impact. The point where it is attached is far too thin and definitely weak.

Eh.... as far as I know, a claymore was usually wieldable only by men because of strength differences so a lot of realism is instantly thrown out of the window (not saying women can't wield it, but it is biologically factual that men are stronger) so tbh, no point dwelling into realistic proportions....

Just gotta make sure Titan Grip is fighter main only if it ever comes 🤣

Grihm

Conrad wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

As for realism, i´d say that´s out the window pretty fast considering we are gonna run around in plate and chainmail at full speed.

Actually you can semi do that. Pathfinder actually has pretty realistic rules for that, as in you lose like... 5ft of movement in heavy armour I believe? That's pretty accurate.

Well, one could surely do some running, but armor is not light. A short sleeve chainmail as an example is between 11 and 14 KG ( 24 to 30 pounds ) and that´s just one piece. Just walking in that a few hours, and your shoulders feel like that are down on your hips.

Sure, this will be a game, and all things have it´s limits in how far they are to be taken, but i always feel that i miss some sort of weight distribution and effect when armored.

Conrad

Grihm wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

As for realism, i´d say that´s out the window pretty fast considering we are gonna run around in plate and chainmail at full speed.

Actually you can semi do that. Pathfinder actually has pretty realistic rules for that, as in you lose like... 5ft of movement in heavy armour I believe? That's pretty accurate.

Well, one could surely do some running, but armor is not light. A short sleeve chainmail as an example is between 11 and 14 KG ( 24 to 30 pounds ) and that´s just one piece. Just walking in that a few hours, and your shoulders feel like that are down on your hips.

Sure, this will be a game, and all things have it´s limits in how far they are to be taken, but i always feel that i miss some sort of weight distribution and effect when armored.

That is false, please do some research about armour before saying this sort of thing. Armour, is specifically made to balance its weight around the whole body. Chainmail for example is mostly held on to you by a huge belt which focuses the weight in your waist area, making the weight more equally distributed. In battles, ppl need to be ready to fight for hours at end.

Grihm

Conrad wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

As for realism, i´d say that´s out the window pretty fast considering we are gonna run around in plate and chainmail at full speed.

Actually you can semi do that. Pathfinder actually has pretty realistic rules for that, as in you lose like... 5ft of movement in heavy armour I believe? That's pretty accurate.

Well, one could surely do some running, but armor is not light. A short sleeve chainmail as an example is between 11 and 14 KG ( 24 to 30 pounds ) and that´s just one piece. Just walking in that a few hours, and your shoulders feel like that are down on your hips.

Sure, this will be a game, and all things have it´s limits in how far they are to be taken, but i always feel that i miss some sort of weight distribution and effect when armored.

That is false, please do some research about armour before saying this sort of thing. Armour, is specifically made to balance its weight around the whole body. Chainmail for example is mostly held on to you by a huge belt which focuses the weight in your waist area, making the weight more equally distributed. In battles, ppl need to be ready to fight for hours at end.

Well, that´s nice in text, but a chainmail is not being held in place by a belt for long if you do running or fighting. Neither do any piece of armor to be honest, due to it being a shell on your body, 9 times out of 10 not molded after you.

I claim this because i have worn armor, made armor pieces, used chainmail, made chainmail, am friends with fighters in both medieval style as Viking age, so i am not just pulling this out of thin air.

Conrad

Grihm wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

As for realism, i´d say that´s out the window pretty fast considering we are gonna run around in plate and chainmail at full speed.

Actually you can semi do that. Pathfinder actually has pretty realistic rules for that, as in you lose like... 5ft of movement in heavy armour I believe? That's pretty accurate.

Well, one could surely do some running, but armor is not light. A short sleeve chainmail as an example is between 11 and 14 KG ( 24 to 30 pounds ) and that´s just one piece. Just walking in that a few hours, and your shoulders feel like that are down on your hips.

Sure, this will be a game, and all things have it´s limits in how far they are to be taken, but i always feel that i miss some sort of weight distribution and effect when armored.

That is false, please do some research about armour before saying this sort of thing. Armour, is specifically made to balance its weight around the whole body. Chainmail for example is mostly held on to you by a huge belt which focuses the weight in your waist area, making the weight more equally distributed. In battles, ppl need to be ready to fight for hours at end.

Well, that´s nice in text, but a chainmail is not being held in place by a belt for long if you do running or fighting. Neither do any piece of armor to be honest, due to it being a shell on your body, 9 times out of 10 not molded after you.

I claim this because i have worn armor, made armor pieces, used chainmail, made chainmail, am friends with fighters in both medieval style as Viking age, so i am not just pulling this out of thin air.

Anyone can claim anything. And yes, while belt won't hold on for weeks, even during battle it can last a long time, otherwise its made poorly. And well, if its made poorly that's a different story altogether

Grihm

Conrad wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

As for realism, i´d say that´s out the window pretty fast considering we are gonna run around in plate and chainmail at full speed.

Actually you can semi do that. Pathfinder actually has pretty realistic rules for that, as in you lose like... 5ft of movement in heavy armour I believe? That's pretty accurate.

Well, one could surely do some running, but armor is not light. A short sleeve chainmail as an example is between 11 and 14 KG ( 24 to 30 pounds ) and that´s just one piece. Just walking in that a few hours, and your shoulders feel like that are down on your hips.

Sure, this will be a game, and all things have it´s limits in how far they are to be taken, but i always feel that i miss some sort of weight distribution and effect when armored.

That is false, please do some research about armour before saying this sort of thing. Armour, is specifically made to balance its weight around the whole body. Chainmail for example is mostly held on to you by a huge belt which focuses the weight in your waist area, making the weight more equally distributed. In battles, ppl need to be ready to fight for hours at end.

Well, that´s nice in text, but a chainmail is not being held in place by a belt for long if you do running or fighting. Neither do any piece of armor to be honest, due to it being a shell on your body, 9 times out of 10 not molded after you.

I claim this because i have worn armor, made armor pieces, used chainmail, made chainmail, am friends with fighters in both medieval style as Viking age, so i am not just pulling this out of thin air.

Anyone can claim anything. And yes, while belt won't hold on for weeks, even during battle it can last a long time, otherwise its made poorly. And well, if its made poorly that's a different story altogether

I have no reason to lie bud. This topic is one very close to my own heart, and one i hope they get as right as possible. I saw the latest dev stream, and in the start they speak of a real importance for realism and how the devs appreciated the feedback to work from. Bacons team specifically are on point in this. A game can look amazing, and fall on any number of elements, just as it can look horrible, and gain on these same elements.

Weapon size, armor size, a decent body armor / weapon ratio....it all combines into something that will either look good, or feel very off.

I don´t think the devs are looking for realism in terms of actual historical measurements, but rather, something that makes a realistic amount of sense. We know it´s a game, and we know you do not run 500 meters full sprint in a plate armor and then fight for 10 min straight.... but we do still want said armor and weapons, and even fighting style to look " realistic ".

It´s a tricky collection of issues, but i think they are very much on the right track.

Khambhat

I haven't seen a lot of current in game weapons but the over-sized 'cartoony' stuff is (hopefully) not where they're headed. I also don't want things bland like ESO ended up being but some art styles are so over the top they break the immersion for me.

Atama

angelicshiya wrote: »

So tired of these realism arguments. as stated by @Tyranthraxus and his chiropractor "joke"... like we're fighting dragons and casting meteors. Your argument is that a weapon that is oversized isn't realistic and they will need to go to the doctor or will be to slow for enemies. Well I would argue that casting fireballs is unrealistic and that you would burn your hand off.

Anyway difference in opinion, I don't need them to be gargantuan, just normal to plus size.

The ridiculously-oversized weapon style for Asian MMOs does not fit the aesthetic of Ashes, and the creator of the game has declared it won't have them.

/thread

Tyranthraxus

Khambhat wrote: »

I haven't seen a lot of current in game weapons but the over-sized 'cartoony' stuff is (hopefully) not where they're headed. I also don't want things bland like ESO ended up being but some art styles are so over the top they break the immersion for me.

Um.... How *exactly* are you so certain that those 110lbs toons aren't *SO* into working out at the gym 5 days a week that they don't have the developed muscular systems to wield those 300lbs weapons?

GOSH!

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