A suggestion for RP bounty hunting. Defeat instead of death. ( as a duel )

This is just an idea, but based on how a bounty hunter could serve it´s purpose in tracking and finishing a target.

Fact´s are, even if you send a killer to end your opponent, he/she will not die, only be defeated in PVP. This because no one can expect another player to delete a character due to being the target of a bounty and ending up defeated.

So with this fact in mind, a suggestion.

Perhaps a system could evolve in where a bounty hunter can defeat a player instead of killing him/her.
When the bounty hunter agree to take on a bounty, an ability is triggered for a certain amount of time. During that time, if the bounty hunter defeats the mark, the player is only " defeated " and knocked unconscious.

The bounty hunter will receive no corruption by this, as long as the bounty ability is still active.
When the bounty hunter has defeated the mark, it is up to the bounty hunter IF he or she wishes to kill the mark. If that is the case, the ability is deleted and corruption is added ( this because the killing is unnecessary really since the player is already defeated and down )

The end game of this is

* Bounty hunters can take on a bounty, and hunt down their target, defeat them and return for the reward.
* As long as the bounty is set and payed for ( an in game decided amount at minimum with a rather high cost ) KOS matters can be dealt with without it turning to ganking or harassment.
* As long as the bounty hunter stops at the defeated mark and not execute the player, no corruption is added.
* A limit is set on how often a Bounty hunter can take on bounties, and how often a player can set a bounty on the same mark.

Just an idea.

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Atama

wolfwood82 wrote: »

Sounds like you're making up the problem you wish to solve.

Exactly, this is the classic "solution in search of a problem" that we often see on these boards revolving around Corruption/BH and such.

Grihm

Dygz wrote: »

Right. I'm really just saying that's not what a bounty is.
Could be some other system.

Referring to Bounty´s here in a looser sense. Another system it could be indeed.

Noaani

Grihm wrote: »

Another system it could be indeed.

Perhaps give some details of how you may see this working as a different system. I mean, I am not personally against the idea of players settingbounties on others in general, it's just that they whole thing needs to make sense in the context of the game as a whole (as we currently understand it).

Again though, you need to start out with a well defined purpose for the system. Just saying that you want KOS matters able to be dealt with without needing to resort to ganking or harassing isnt a reason to need a new system, as players that dont want to gank or harass are already able to deal with KOS matters without ganking or harassing, if they wish.

FuryBladeborne

Grihm wrote: »

Quote

The end game of this is

* Bounty hunters can take on a bounty, and hunt down their target, defeat them and return for the reward.
* As long as the bounty is set and payed for ( an in game decided amount at minimum with a rather high cost ) KOS matters can be dealt with without it turning to ganking or harassment.
* As long as the bounty hunter stops at the defeated mark and not execute the player, no corruption is added.
* A limit is set on how often a Bounty hunter can take on bounties, and how often a player can set a bounty on the same mark.

To clarify even further.
The idea is in regards to other people claiming that they cannot do bounty hunting and or preform KOS in their guilds. The suggestion here is to have a separate way to " smack " your opponent down ( as a duel ) and be done with it. In no way shape or form am i trying to give people a way off corruption, since the corruption is there for a reason. One could almost say that what this is, is a time limited duel, and no you wont get items, money or anything... it´s a " cosmetic " defeat if you will to deal with in guild issues, RP grudges, clan arguments etc.

And no...people will not " run around with throwaway gear " and gank if that´s what you mean. If you read the list.. a bounty is limited by time and how often one person can get a bounty on them as well as it´s comes at a cost.

@Grihm,
There will be a duel mechanic. Since we don't know anything about the mechanic, I don't see how we can justify changing it to the bounty hunter system at this point. It would seem like the best option for you to get you system into the game would be to apply your suggestion to the duel mechanic.

The bounty hunter system is currently intended as a perk for citizens of military nodes that are stage 4 and up. From what you have described, it looks like you want your duel mechanic to be available to everyone.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#Duels
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bounty_hunters

Grihm

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

@Grihm,
There will be a duel mechanic. Since we don't know anything about the mechanic, I don't see how we can justify changing it to the bounty hunter system at this point. It would seem like the best option for you to get you system into the game would be to apply your suggestion to the duel mechanic.

The bounty hunter system is currently intended as a perk for citizens of military nodes that are stage 4 and up. From what you have described, it looks like you want your duel mechanic to be available to everyone.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#Duels
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bounty_hunters

Not suggestion the system should " take over " any existing bounty hunting system at all and not claiming it anywhere either. Seeing it as a form of duel instead would be perfectly fine. People are fixating on a name, but i could just as easy call it the " strawberry " system. It´s not to replace any existing bounty hunting at all, so we can leave that behind.

Yes.. a duel system, more open to all, and that does not lead to anyone dropping any gear. As said..a cosmetic defeat as said to " prove a point ". It´s nothing more advanced than that... no mathematical equations needed... no 40 page deep dive needed... it´s just a small suggestion for a flavored way to end arguments, rp fights or deals etc.

It arrived from a small debate where PVP was talked about and how arguments could be solved without turning to a death.

Azherae

I believe you misunderstood the point of that debate as a whole, though.

The thing being questioned was 'how can I attack a player that has done harm or acted dishonorably without facing Corruption penalties?' based on the fact that if, in the most basic example, someone kills your friend just before you both log off for the night and then go work off their Corruption, you can't punish them.

This would get that person labeled as 'Kill On Sight' for all those logged off people who couldn't get back online in time to do the punishment, either because the person worked off the Corruption entirely, or just managed to get away.

When person A kills person B and escapes, the whole point of KoS is to make Person A be punished or suffer. The only way to make that happen meaningfully is to make them drop something of their own. The point is not 'for the Bounty Hunter to get some payment from someone'. It is for them to carve their vengeance out of the hide of the offending party and stand laughing over their ashes.

Or something like that.

As I noted in the other thread, and to remind you, @Grihm, I don't care if 'tracking down an escaped person and killing them for that reason' leads to Corruption. I'm clarifying for you that the thing people were 'trying to solve' is not the thing you are currently solving. Or if you are, try again, this way doesn't work.

Grihm

Azherae wrote: »

I believe you misunderstood the point of that debate as a whole, though.

The thing being questioned was 'how can I attack a player that has done harm or acted dishonorably without facing Corruption penalties?' based on the fact that if, in the most basic example, someone kills your friend just before you both log off for the night and then go work off their Corruption, you can't punish them.

This would get that person labeled as 'Kill On Sight' for all those logged off people who couldn't get back online in time to do the punishment, either because the person worked off the Corruption entirely, or just managed to get away.

When person A kills person B and escapes, the whole point of KoS is to make Person A be punished or suffer. The only way to make that happen meaningfully is to make them drop something of their own. The point is not 'for the Bounty Hunter to get some payment from someone'. It is for them to carve their vengeance out of the hide of the offending party and stand laughing over their ashes.

Or something like that.

As I noted in the other thread, and to remind you, @Grihm, I don't care if 'tracking down an escaped person and killing them for that reason' leads to Corruption. I'm clarifying for you that the thing people were 'trying to solve' is not the thing you are currently solving. Or if you are, try again, this way doesn't work.

The basic idea was to treat it as a sort of duel, as mentioned in the OP.
* Bounty hunters can take on a bounty, and hunt down their target, defeat them and return for the reward.
* As long as the bounty is set and payed for ( an in game decided amount at minimum with a rather high cost ) KOS matters can be dealt with without it turning to ganking or harassment.
* As long as the bounty hunter stops at the defeated mark and not execute the player, no corruption is added.
* A limit is set on how often a Bounty hunter can take on bounties, and how often a player can set a bounty on the same mark.

As in... I do something you do not like ( guild betrayal, backstabbing in sieges, selling to the enemy, trading secrets, helping enemy factions etc etc ). You put a bounty on me that your friend accepts. Your friend has a given amount of time to smack me down, and within that timeframe, no corruption is given to him /her as long as they do not ( when i am defeated, as in a duel ) kill me after.

There are so many ways to deal with something, and this is a bit more on the RP side of things. It is indeed basically a form of duel, within a timeframe. Not everything must be about getting an item as a reward for " killing " another.

Azherae

Think in terms of emotions and greed, not RP for the discussion in question, i.e. why no one seems to understand the purpose of your system. I'm definitely not saying it's a bad system, I'm asking you why anyone outside of RP should care about it.

Why would anyone bother doing anything you mentioned? Did the target lose anything (I'm assuming they at least get XP debt)? Are they less likely to do what they did again? What if the target wins? Who paid for the bounty? If the bounty is mostly paid by 'the node' or 'taxes', what's to stop people from abusing this to just generate money? You would have to make it worth the bounty hunter's time relative to any other target or activity.

Again, the entire point of KoS lists is 'counter-harassment'. If you remove that aspect of it, it's not worth doing outside of RP. If it costs a lot, you might as well go do it and take the Corruption too. That was the reason for the other thread's "Grudge of the Sworn Enemy" thing.

It is literally 'Here is a free pass to counter-harass someone once.'

neuroguy

Based on the thread it is obvious that the proposed system is very convoluted and confusing (it still is being clarified what the point of it is and how it works)... although I respect trying to 'think outside the box' and brainstorm, it just hasn't seemed to hit the mark this time.

The problem I have with it personally is that it sounds like there is a premise that killing a single player 'dishonorably' or similarly, killing a single player 'out of revenge' will grant corruption with consequences. Other than the obvious (the corruption will only apply if the killed player both is a non-combatant and does not fight back, or is much lower level), we simply have no information on the corruption calculation as of now and when it starts to rack up penalties. Corruption is a scale and at the extreme end will result in dropped gear, easy hunting for bounty hunters etc. On the low end though, its consequences can be negligible/very small. This reflects IS's intention that it's ok to have one off killings here and there even if it is against non-consenting players. The corruption system isn't meant to act as a ban against such behavior, people who don't want to PvP, will get killed in PvP and in fact I suspect the dropping of raw materials by non-combatants will be a more severe punishment than the little corruption gained from killing a single non-combatant. My understanding of the corruption system is that it is meant to prevent/discourage griefing which is a repeated action (and thus I suspect corruption will accumulate faster if you kill the same player over and over for example). You will die in this game, and a lot of times it will be from PvP even if you don't want it to be. The game should not and I believe does not prevent this, corruption is a system that really kicks in when someone is repeatedly and continuously ruining people's experience, but getting ganked or randomly killed once in a while is not ruining someone's experience, that is part of the experience of playing AoC. Corruption is not a shield that makes the game PvE for you if that's how you want to play it, we don't need systems that prevent consequences or remove risk/danger from the world. This is why this game may not be for everyone.

Grihm

Azherae wrote: »

Think in terms of emotions and greed, not RP for the discussion in question, i.e. why no one seems to understand the purpose of your system. I'm definitely not saying it's a bad system, I'm asking you why anyone outside of RP should care about it.

Why would anyone bother doing anything you mentioned? Did the target lose anything (I'm assuming they at least get XP debt)? Are they less likely to do what they did again? What if the target wins? Who paid for the bounty? If the bounty is mostly paid by 'the node' or 'taxes', what's to stop people from abusing this to just generate money? You would have to make it worth the bounty hunter's time relative to any other target or activity.

Again, the entire point of KoS lists is 'counter-harassment'. If you remove that aspect of it, it's not worth doing outside of RP. If it costs a lot, you might as well go do it and take the Corruption too. That was the reason for the other thread's "Grudge of the Sworn Enemy" thing.

It is literally 'Here is a free pass to counter-harass someone once.'

But this IS for RP.
People do different things. Some will PVP 24/7, some will never touch it.
Why would some do what i mentioned? Why would someone do anything. I´ts a personal choice in the end.
People think of it in too complicated terms. See it as a form of duel.... nothing complicated.

Why would anyone do a duel? Same thing there.

Azherae

Grihm wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Think in terms of emotions and greed, not RP for the discussion in question, i.e. why no one seems to understand the purpose of your system. I'm definitely not saying it's a bad system, I'm asking you why anyone outside of RP should care about it.

Why would anyone bother doing anything you mentioned? Did the target lose anything (I'm assuming they at least get XP debt)? Are they less likely to do what they did again? What if the target wins? Who paid for the bounty? If the bounty is mostly paid by 'the node' or 'taxes', what's to stop people from abusing this to just generate money? You would have to make it worth the bounty hunter's time relative to any other target or activity.

Again, the entire point of KoS lists is 'counter-harassment'. If you remove that aspect of it, it's not worth doing outside of RP. If it costs a lot, you might as well go do it and take the Corruption too. That was the reason for the other thread's "Grudge of the Sworn Enemy" thing.

It is literally 'Here is a free pass to counter-harass someone once.'

But this IS for RP.
People do different things. Some will PVP 24/7, some will never touch it.
Why would some do what i mentioned? Why would someone do anything. I´ts a personal choice in the end.
People think of it in too complicated terms. See it as a form of duel.... nothing complicated.

Why would anyone do a duel? Same thing there.

In that case, I genuinely apologize for getting involved and derailing this. It somehow wasn't clear to me that this was specifically for RP and that's my bad.

My 'expertise' if you can call it that is 'converting people's activities and motivations into game mechanics'. 'Facilitating and encouraging RP' is a whole other skillset which is applied separately. I'll hand this thread over to @JustVine in that case.

Good luck with your idea.

neuroguy

Grihm wrote: »

But this IS for RP.
People do different things. Some will PVP 24/7, some will never touch it.
Why would some do what i mentioned? Why would someone do anything. I´ts a personal choice in the end.
People think of it in too complicated terms. See it as a form of duel.... nothing complicated.

Why would anyone do a duel? Same thing there.

The difference here is that you want a third party to commission and pay for the success of the duel and the loser of the duel to lose nothing. But if the winner of the duel kills the target in order to earn some money/loot without the third party, you suggest they receive corruption and are thus punished (if you say they would not receive corruption if they don't kill the target, this is what you suggest).

Do you see the difference between that and a duel? A duel has clear terms, a winner and a loser and even if nothing is gained/lost it at least doesn't follow some strange logic of who gets rewarded and who gets punished.

Aerlana

Players with a high enough corruption score will be visible on the world and mini maps. These players will have markers posted on the map by an NPC from a Military node of at least stage 4 (Town), and will only be granted to players who have the Bounty hunter title.[12] The accuracy of bounty hunter maps is determined by a player's progression in the bounty hunter system.[7]

Taverns are one of the locations that bounties will be posted. As players gain corruption, taverns may offer bounties to eliminate those players; or have a specific area cleared of problem players, thus giving a POI (point of interest) on the world map.[13]

Corrupted players may kill bounty hunters without acquiring additional corruption score.[8][9]

Corrupted player's combat penalties do not apply when battling bounty hunters.[8]

Corruption penalties occur as the corruption is gained.[20] The higher the corruption score:

The more skill and stat dampening applies (lower health and mana, lower gear proficiency), until the corrupt player ultimately becomes ineffective at combat.[21] This dampening only affects PvP combat.[22]

Corrupt players killing bounty hunters

Corrupted players potentially gain rewards for killing bounty hunters.[32]

A lot of quote from wiki because i feel some people here misunderstand what bounty hunting really is. (technically)

This is what bounty hunting is. An automatised system. directly bind to the amount of corruption anyone can have. People with enough corruption become automatically bounty hunting targets.
The bounty hunter is a "non combatant" It means that any "combatant" who kills a bounty hunter gets corruption.
Corrupted players can kill bounty hunters without taking corruption. And even more, while corruption gives some stats malus on PvP, it is not the case while finghint a bounty hunter (so "fair fight" ) And if the corrupted players win => potential reward.

Now, about the first post
1) there is not a player setting a bounty on another. it is a system bind to corrupt system and is automatic.
2) It is to make life of corrupted people even worse. Because they can be hunted easily (with the map in tavern showing where they are)
3) Defeat but not dead = no malus from corruption = corruption useless.

This is the main point, the corruption. It is a system put in place to limit people to gank non stop "non combatant"... We know how people can become real cancer, killing anyone, anywhere, brainlessly. With corruption, you can do it. there is no way to be safe from PvP BUT those who craves for blood will be corrupted and risk their stuff. Suggesting way to not being corrupted in some cases, or not losing stuff while dying corrupted is just offering way to not have to suffer from corruption. . .

For the core idea "take the bounty but not killing" there is 2 things
1) the corrupted stays corrupted, continue to be target from other bounty hunter, right he doesnt dies, but being focused by all bounty hunters can become... boring.
2) the corrupted lose some corruption like if he died. ok good, ill call friends to bounty hunt me, and get rid easily of my corruption. faster than natural decrease, and without the risk to lose anything. => ready to kill more green people yay

Grihm

Azherae wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Think in terms of emotions and greed, not RP for the discussion in question, i.e. why no one seems to understand the purpose of your system. I'm definitely not saying it's a bad system, I'm asking you why anyone outside of RP should care about it.

Why would anyone bother doing anything you mentioned? Did the target lose anything (I'm assuming they at least get XP debt)? Are they less likely to do what they did again? What if the target wins? Who paid for the bounty? If the bounty is mostly paid by 'the node' or 'taxes', what's to stop people from abusing this to just generate money? You would have to make it worth the bounty hunter's time relative to any other target or activity.

Again, the entire point of KoS lists is 'counter-harassment'. If you remove that aspect of it, it's not worth doing outside of RP. If it costs a lot, you might as well go do it and take the Corruption too. That was the reason for the other thread's "Grudge of the Sworn Enemy" thing.

It is literally 'Here is a free pass to counter-harass someone once.'

But this IS for RP.
People do different things. Some will PVP 24/7, some will never touch it.
Why would some do what i mentioned? Why would someone do anything. I´ts a personal choice in the end.
People think of it in too complicated terms. See it as a form of duel.... nothing complicated.

Why would anyone do a duel? Same thing there.

In that case, I genuinely apologize for getting involved and derailing this. It somehow wasn't clear to me that this was specifically for RP and that's my bad.

My 'expertise' if you can call it that is 'converting people's activities and motivations into game mechanics'. 'Facilitating and encouraging RP' is a whole other skillset which is applied separately. I'll hand this thread over to @JustVine in that case.

Good luck with your idea.

It seems it was a lot less complicated to fully explain it as an optional RP element. I have no intentions of altering any existing system, taking over any system etc etc. It was never said anywhere.

Noaani

Grihm wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Think in terms of emotions and greed, not RP for the discussion in question, i.e. why no one seems to understand the purpose of your system. I'm definitely not saying it's a bad system, I'm asking you why anyone outside of RP should care about it.

Why would anyone bother doing anything you mentioned? Did the target lose anything (I'm assuming they at least get XP debt)? Are they less likely to do what they did again? What if the target wins? Who paid for the bounty? If the bounty is mostly paid by 'the node' or 'taxes', what's to stop people from abusing this to just generate money? You would have to make it worth the bounty hunter's time relative to any other target or activity.

Again, the entire point of KoS lists is 'counter-harassment'. If you remove that aspect of it, it's not worth doing outside of RP. If it costs a lot, you might as well go do it and take the Corruption too. That was the reason for the other thread's "Grudge of the Sworn Enemy" thing.

It is literally 'Here is a free pass to counter-harass someone once.'

But this IS for RP.
People do different things. Some will PVP 24/7, some will never touch it.
Why would some do what i mentioned? Why would someone do anything. I´ts a personal choice in the end.
People think of it in too complicated terms. See it as a form of duel.... nothing complicated.

Why would anyone do a duel? Same thing there.

In that case, I genuinely apologize for getting involved and derailing this. It somehow wasn't clear to me that this was specifically for RP and that's my bad.

My 'expertise' if you can call it that is 'converting people's activities and motivations into game mechanics'. 'Facilitating and encouraging RP' is a whole other skillset which is applied separately. I'll hand this thread over to @JustVine in that case.

Good luck with your idea.

It seems it was a lot less complicated to fully explain it as an optional RP element. I have no intentions of altering any existing system, taking over any system etc etc. It was never said anywhere.

An RP feature still needs to either have no mechanical aspect to it, or needs to provide a specific mechanical function.

An example of each would be the ability to sit on a chair, and player housing.

Sitting in a chair does nothing. It is 100% RP. If Intrepid made it so sitting in a chair increased HP recovery speed, then all of a sudden they would need to pay attention to where every chair in the game was placed.

Player housing is an RP feature, but also offers up a mechanical aspect that isnt available in any other manner in the game - and is an essential aspect of the game.

I don't see how your suggestion even works as an RP device. If you wanted a player to attack another player, the "best" RP way to do that is to ask that player to do the thing you want, and offer them money.

The general idea makes much more sense being a feature with a specific mechanical function, rather than a feature for RP. Thing is, that specific function still needs to be correctly defined and identified as something that is beneficial to have, and then the idea needs its specific features to be considered with that specific function in mind.

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