DPS Meter Megathread

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Aerlana

Dygz wrote: »

Yeah. It's not necessarily intended by the devs to be so easy to see.

Again, this is against a "group" parser but not against parser.
personnal parser (or personnal combat tracker) is already a lot of help to improve yourself, to more understand the game. etc. I am far for wanting more than this. and while the ex raid leader i am liked to be able to have a parser to see the whole raid, to see where we have big lack and what were most mistakes some did, without spending 5 minutes looking their rotation on a dummy, for AOC i even prefer personnal parser !

And like i said : personnal parser will reduce A LOT getting some tier program like ACT for FFXIV. The mistake in FFXIV is not even providing a "personnal parser". (And FFXIV is totally turned to DPScheck)

I just defend to have parser in AoC, and a personnal one is clearly enough

Noaani

bloodandthunder wrote: »

Why do you NEED combat metrics to do content?

Because without a raidwide combat tracker (that parses all information from the raid, and delivers it to everyone in the raid), content developers are not able to develop content as complex (and thus enjoyable and challenging) as they can with such trackers.

Again, this is only for the top end content we are talking about here.

If you think you are able to quickly and accurately work out what is going wrong with a lack of objective data, I wouldn't want to be in any situation with you.

Keep in mind, the suggestion in this thread (which I assume you have not read), is for a combat tracker that is available as a guild perk, and only works on members of that guild.

I find it interesting you have nothing to say to any of the points you made that I refuted, just as it is telling with others that do not answer direct questions in regards to things they have said.

bloodandthunder

Noaani wrote: »

bloodandthunder wrote: »

Why do you NEED combat metrics to do content?

Because without a raidwide combat tracker (that parses all information from the raid, and delivers it to everyone in the raid), content developers are not able to develop content as complex (and thus enjoyable and challenging) as they can with such trackers.

Again, this is only for the top end content we are talking about here.

If you think you are able to quickly and accurately work out what is going wrong with a lack of objective data, I wouldn't want to be in any situation with you.

Keep in mind, the suggestion in this thread (which I assume you have not read), is for a combat tracker that is available as a guild perk, and only works on members of that guild.

I find it interesting you have nothing to say to any of the points you made that I refuted, just as it is telling with others that do not answer direct questions in regards to things they have said.

This is my response to everything you said right here:

bloodandthunder wrote: »

B ) Mechanics are important. Lording metrics over people is not.

I have to go to work now, bud. Good luck in your travels

rikardp98

bloodandthunder wrote: »

wrote:

This is the proof you don't even know how to read a parser. . .

I know how to read a parser. DPS Meters = Combat Meters, but since the topic was on DPS meter, i used that term.

No that's not correct. DPS meter = damage per second meter =\= combat meters xD

A DPS meter only shows you the DPS, while a combat tracker shows you everything.

Aerlana

bloodandthunder wrote: »

Just because the top end guilds could benefit from combat metrics, does not mean that they will not be abused at every tier below the top tier. ESO learned this and prevented public parses making it impossible for players to abuse one another based on metrics alone. You still need to prove you can hit DPS checks on discord or whatever forum a raid uses, which is almost as bad.

there is one thing you totally took aside :

people spend time learning the game, learning their class, and doing their best to improve their gameplay, getting better. They are happy when they see that, with the same stuff, they get 1% more efficiency.
Some content are really hard, i don't know eso end game, but if there is "enrage" mechanic, having a minimum DPS is needed !

if the enrage is 10 minutes, the boss get 600k healthpoint, your whole group/raid will need 1k DPS.
if you have 999dps, you wont kill it.
So yes, some guilds where players spent a lot of time to perfect their gameplay don't want to just carry people thru content. They want people with a minimum of gamelevel.

Also, if a guy does not lot damage, if there is a clear lack of damages with the stuff he has. What could guarantee that at least he will does a perfect job on mechanics ? Most of time, player with a not so good DPS were not so good in all part of fight, those with really good DPS were at least good on other part, and those with shitty DPS were shitty... everywhere.

And here comes the stupid (really stupid) ilvl req we can see in party finder (and god knows how many facepalm i did on either wow or FFXIV for this)
This big ilvl was for 2 reasons
1) if you play bad, at least with the stuff you will have enough damages to do your part. I saw many time with 10 or 15 less ilvl doing as much DPS as another of the same class than me... and when there is enrage... it is matter
2) kind of "kill proof" : mainly saw it in FFXIV where there is a lot of "weekly loot" you see a ilvl req which is simply "you got all stuff improvement you could with weekly limit from the first week"

OH and before you say "enrage is bad design" : yes... and no.

Lets take souls/metroidvania bosses that are mainly "avoid to take damage, and hit when you can" . On a fight that the average people do it in 10 minutes. you can decide to do the fight in 1 hour, taking no risk, and hitting only when you are 100% sure that even if there is a little input mistake, you wont get it. Now the devs just add an enrage of 20 minutes. you will have to improve your gameplay to be able to do more risky moves.

this is what enrage does in MMORPG : not allowing people to have unlimited time. And while i hate "hard enrage" (you reach timer, and the boss suddenly does x10 damages...) i love soft enrages. like was gruul in BC : he begins being weak, and the longer the fight is, the stronger he hits. The toughest the tank were and stronger the heal were, the longer we could make the fight long. (So this is the whole raid capacity which is involved in killing the boss before "enrage" and not just a DPS matter).
A soft enrage in souls/metroidvania would simply making the bost getting faster and faster = the better you are to avoid, the longer you have to kill it.

Noaani

bloodandthunder wrote: »

This is my response to everything you said right here:

bloodandthunder wrote: »

B ) Mechanics are important. Lording metrics over people is not.

I agree, this kind of thing is not called for.

However, the kind of person that does this is the kind of person that would do it regardless.

if not a combat tracker readout, they would find something else. What possible reason could anyone have for thinking not having a combat tracker would suddenly remove - or even lower - this kind of behavior from a game?

Keep in mind, Ashes is a game where people can literally kill you and take your stuff. They can destroy your home, and the industrial network you have built up. In such a game, someone saying "but I did more DPS than you" isn't really a big deal - even if it is uncalled for.

I mean, what's it going to do, hurt someone's feelings?

Dygz

Top End Raid guilds should still be top end raid guilds - even without group combat metrics.
Every playstyle is going to have to make some adjustments when playing Ashes. No playstyle is going to have their optimum experience because a wide variety of playstyles are all stuck together on the same server.

Dygz

Aerlana wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Yeah. It's not necessarily intended by the devs to be so easy to see.

Again, this is against a "group" parser but not against parser.
personnal parser (or personnal combat tracker) is already a lot of help to improve yourself, to more understand the game. etc. I am far for wanting more than this. and while the ex raid leader i am liked to be able to have a parser to see the whole raid, to see where we have big lack and what were most mistakes some did, without spending 5 minutes looking their rotation on a dummy, for AOC i even prefer personnal parser !

And like i said : personnal parser will reduce A LOT getting some tier program like ACT for FFXIV. The mistake in FFXIV is not even providing a "personnal parser". (And FFXIV is totally turned to DPScheck)

I just defend to have parser in AoC, and a personnal one is clearly enough

I understand. I'm mostly sharing more information based on what you wrote rather than completely disagreeing you.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Top End Raid guilds should still be top end raid guilds - even without group combat metrics.

They will, just that they will be top end raid guilds in games with top end raid content, which without combat trackers Ashes won't have.

Dygz

rikardp98 wrote: »

bloodandthunder wrote: »

wrote:

This is the proof you don't even know how to read a parser. . .

I know how to read a parser. DPS Meters = Combat Meters, but since the topic was on DPS meter, i used that term.

No that's not correct. DPS meter = damage per second meter =\= combat meters xD

A DPS meter only shows you the DPS, while a combat tracker shows you everything.

That is colloquial v literal.
For many people the terms are interchangeable and for some people they aren't.
Just as in some regions of the US a coke can be any brand or flavor of soda.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

bloodandthunder wrote: »

wrote:

This is the proof you don't even know how to read a parser. . .

I know how to read a parser. DPS Meters = Combat Meters, but since the topic was on DPS meter, i used that term.

No that's not correct. DPS meter = damage per second meter =\= combat meters xD

A DPS meter only shows you the DPS, while a combat tracker shows you everything.

That is colloquial v literal.
For many people the terms are interchangeable and for some people they aren't.
Just as in some regions of the US a coke can be any brand or flavor of soda.

The difference is that one is correct, and the other is known to be incorrect yet accepted in those areas regardless.

There is never any harm in being correct.

Tragnar

After some time i came back here to read if the discussion has changed in any way and what i see is this:

"DPS meters create elitism and toxicity, by removing meters we fight against it!"
- meanwhile archetype-archetype that isnt on "viable" tier list gets excluded

"we dont care that we clear in 16minutes instead of 10"
- meanwhile people that care about speed flock to people that care about it and those that dont flock with those that dont - only people rejected from speed guilds that got rid of the because they were slowing them down too much complain for not being where they want to be - aka "let me be a speed clearer without the effort or ability to do so"

"we want personal builds that we want to run"
- meanwhile designers are sweating because they are tracking all the build possibilities and praying that they didnt miss an overpowered interaction that would skyrocket a build way above all others - because we all know that when something is super strong that people reroll to it

In the end I have always a feeling that many players that are against meters are just people that don't want any loose conditions. However I'm super glad to see the alfa gameplay and finally to be able to have an inkling for what the build tools are going to look like and what direction those tools aim

Jxshuwu

Tragnar wrote: »

After some time i came back here to read if the discussion has changed in any way and what i see is this:

"DPS meters create elitism and toxicity, by removing meters we fight against it!"
- meanwhile archetype-archetype that isnt on "viable" tier list gets excluded

"we dont care that we clear in 16minutes instead of 10"
- meanwhile people that care about speed flock to people that care about it and those that dont flock with those that dont - only people rejected from speed guilds that got rid of the because they were slowing them down too much complain for not being where they want to be - aka "let me be a speed clearer without the effort or ability to do so"

"we want personal builds that we want to run"
- meanwhile designers are sweating because they are tracking all the build possibilities and praying that they didnt miss an overpowered interaction that would skyrocket a build way above all others - because we all know that when something is super strong that people reroll to it

In the end I have always a feeling that many players that are against meters are just people that don't want any loose conditions. However I'm super glad to see the alfa gameplay and finally to be able to have an inkling for what the build tools are going to look like and what direction those tools aim

''In the end I have always a feeling that many players that are against meters are just people that don't want any loose conditions'' > We just don't want a meta to form so quickly each patch that you HAVE to play that specific class or you get excluded from content. Like in WoW, you literally get kicked if you don't play meta, even though you might not enjoy that class. Meta will still exist regardless, just less defined and more broad.

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

"DPS meters create elitism and toxicity, by removing meters we fight against it!"
- meanwhile archetype-archetype that isnt on "viable" tier list gets excluded

Not an issue because the game is balanced around the active skills of the Primary Archetypes; not around the augments from the Secondary Archetypes.

Tragnar wrote: »

"we dont care that we clear in 16minutes instead of 10"
- meanwhile people that care about speed flock to people that care about it and those that dont flock with those that dont - only people rejected from speed guilds that got rid of them because they were slowing them down too much complain for not being where they want to be - aka "let me be a speed clearer without the effort or ability to do so"

In my experience, that doesn't happen...but.
I expect people to have an easier time finding and playing with players who have similar playstyles in Ashes because we will know where those people's homes are.

Tragnar wrote: »

"we want personal builds that we want to run"
- meanwhile designers are sweating because they are tracking all the build possibilities and praying that they didnt miss an overpowered interaction that would skyrocket a build way above all others - because we all know that when something is super strong that people reroll to it

The devs won't be sweating because the game is balanced around the active skills of the Primary Archetypes; not around the augments.

Tragnar wrote: »

In the end I have always a feeling that many players that are against meters are just people that don't want any loose conditions. However I'm super glad to see the alfa gameplay and finally to be able to have an inkling for what the build tools are going to look like and what direction those tools aim

Just because you have a feeling doesn't mean that feeling is valid outside of yourself.
People who are against DPS meters tend to have fewer issues with lose conditions than people in favor of DPS. The anti-DPS-meters are wjust more willing to except loss more often as they strive to devise winning strategies by trial and error by observing abilities rather than by crunching numbers.

rikardp98

Jxshuwu wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

After some time i came back here to read if the discussion has changed in any way and what i see is this:

"DPS meters create elitism and toxicity, by removing meters we fight against it!"
- meanwhile archetype-archetype that isnt on "viable" tier list gets excluded

"we dont care that we clear in 16minutes instead of 10"
- meanwhile people that care about speed flock to people that care about it and those that dont flock with those that dont - only people rejected from speed guilds that got rid of the because they were slowing them down too much complain for not being where they want to be - aka "let me be a speed clearer without the effort or ability to do so"

"we want personal builds that we want to run"
- meanwhile designers are sweating because they are tracking all the build possibilities and praying that they didnt miss an overpowered interaction that would skyrocket a build way above all others - because we all know that when something is super strong that people reroll to it

In the end I have always a feeling that many players that are against meters are just people that don't want any loose conditions. However I'm super glad to see the alfa gameplay and finally to be able to have an inkling for what the build tools are going to look like and what direction those tools aim

''In the end I have always a feeling that many players that are against meters are just people that don't want any loose conditions'' > We just don't want a meta to form so quickly each patch that you HAVE to play that specific class or you get excluded from content. Like in WoW, you literally get kicked if you don't play meta, even though you might not enjoy that class. Meta will still exist regardless, just less defined and more broad.

Yes metas will still form but they will be less defined and much less accurate (no real data to support the meta).

Bad players will play bad metas thinking they are good and won't listen to other players. (Meta formed by emotions not facts)

Good players will play the real metas that are good since they will spend hours and hours fine tuning there build for maximum dps/hps. (Doing indepth analysis from the numbers on the screen and tooltips, estimated data)

What combat trackers does is giving people accurate information about their performance. Meaning, good players will be able to fine tune their build even more, and bad players will no longer think they are playing a good meta.

Now, this is ONLY for people that want to do speed clears. Casual players will and should play the class and build they want to play, they shouldn't follow the meta if they don't want to.

"Well we will still be affected by the meta and kicked out of a PUG". No, no you won't. In a game without group finder och raid finder you will not be kicked out that easy from a PUG, the PUG leader have probably spent hours trying to find people that want to join and it would be faster to just let you play or help you improve rather than finding a new player. BUT, don't join PUGs if you want to have fun! PUGs are a group of RANDOM players lead by a player that is trying his or her best to make it a smooth run for all players. He/she will more likely be less tolerant to flaws and mistakes during the raid compared to a normal guild run. If you don't like the PUG leader then make your own PUG.

So, stop complaining about combat trackers and you being kicked out of pugs. Joina guild that you enjoy playing with and you will never be kicked out again.

"But I don't have any friends", then make some God damn friends in-game, start your own guild and try to recruit people with the same mind set as you. You can't be a solo player in a MMORPG.

rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

Not an issue because the game is balanced around the active skills of the Primary Archetypes; not around the augments from the Secondary Archetypes.

You have no idea how balancing works, small arguments can make a huge difference. It's very very difficult to balance classes and builds.

Dygz wrote: »

In my experience, that doesn't happen...but.
I expect people to have an easier time finding and playing with players who have similar playstyles in Ashes because we will know where those people's homes are.

That's because you have never joined a real guild and only played in PUGs (random groups).

Dygz wrote: »

The devs won't be sweating because the game is balanced around the active skills of the Primary Archetypes; not around the augments.

Have you ever played a balanced MMO? There are always some class or build that are overpowered and broken on some way.

Dygz wrote: »

Just because you have a feeling doesn't mean that feeling is valid outside of yourself.
People who are against DPS meters tend to have fewer issues with lose conditions than people in favor of DPS. The anti-DPS-meters are wjust more willing to except loss more often as they strive to devise winning strategies by trial and error by observing abilities rather than by crunching numbers.

People that are for combat trackers are more willing to accepting facts and adapting to new challenges and encounters so the whole raid can have an easy and enjoyable raid/dungeon.

Dygz

LMAO
We have dev quotes that tell us the design of combat balance.
So, we certainly have some idea of how it will work - actually we have a pretty good idea of how it will work.
If the devs can't successfully deliver on their designs, then they will have failed and people won't be playing Ashes anyways. Toxicity will be moot.

People who are against dps meters are just as willing to accepting facts and adapt to new challenges and encounters so the whole raid can have an easy and enjoyable raid/dungeon. But, they are willing to take more time and losses as they observe actual behaviors rather than trying to be as quick and uber-efficient as possible based on numbers/trackers.
Adapting doesn't mean giving up their RP choices like a Necromancer being told to switch to High Priest just because the numbers indicate that the most uber-efficient strategy is to go with High Priest.

Ashes is being balanced so that any Primary Archetype Cleric will be viable.
Such that if High Priest is viable, Necromancer will also be viable.

Tragnar

Dygz wrote: »

Not an issue because the game is balanced around the active skills of the Primary Archetypes; not around the augments from the Secondary Archetypes.

So you managed to fix 8 slots in 40man raid - the rest 32 is up to meta whoring i guess?

The devs won't be sweating because the game is balanced around the active skills of the Primary Archetypes; not around the augments.

Indeed it is balanced around active skills, however augments augment gameplay power of those skills thus giving you X amount of variations of the same skill

And to the exclusion point - everyone argumenting that wow excludes nonmeta specs is true, but they never mention that you get meta replacement in few seconds after clicking a button, because why not make grinding dungeons faster to get the reward faster?

If in wow replacing a person would take several times longer than just doing a longer run with offmeta specs then the exclusion wouldnt be so widespread. It is just a matter of mistaking correlation with causation. It is literally the same situation as those populists were arguing that video games create real life violence, because some people had mental problems and they owned video games at the same time

Galux

Tragnar wrote: »

In the end I have always a feeling that many players that are against meters are just people that don't want any loose conditions.

Just because of a feeling doesen't mean it's necessarily true. I'm against meters & i for one love when i actually get punished for making mistakes. I'd rather want an encounter to kill me for standing in the charged up dragon's breath instead of taking 60% damage and just get healed back up as an example. In my opinion a game must have lose conditions otherwise it's just a bland boring non-rewarding experience.

rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

People who are against dps meters are just as willing to accepting facts and adapt to new challenges and encounters so the whole raid can have an easy and enjoyable raid/dungeon. But, they are willing to take more time and losses as they observe actual behaviors rather than trying to be as quick and uber-efficient as possible based on numbers/trackers.

People how are against combat trackers are only driven by emotions and their personal perspective. Meaning, during a curtain encounter every player of the 40 man raid (or how many their are in the raid) will have their own perspective of the fight and will not listen to other players perspective because they think they are in the right. So it won't be a smooth and enjoyable experience, it will be a cock fight fiesta.

But as I said before, this is not true for the more casual players. I personally know players that are very very casual and know that they are very casual, and they play with other very casual players. In classic wow my guild cleared Naxx the first week, while some very casual guilds took over 2 months to clear it. I know that they still had a good time because they knew that they were casual players and didn't have any plans to hurry through the content. So I do agree with you to some extent

The problem I have is with players that think they are hard core but won't see the facts, or players that is trying not justify that hardcore players play the game in the wrong way.

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