DPS Meter Megathread

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Tragnar

@Galux
This answer is the reason, why I don't share my "feelings" - today's my weak day i guess. Anything I wrote in that post has been invalidated by it and now we just have clutter posts that have literally negative value (lost time+energy and we've achieved nothing)

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

So you managed to fix 8 slots in 40man raid - the rest 32 is up to meta whoring i guess?

I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.
A raid encounter is designed around four 8-person groups.
You don't need DPS meters or combat trackers to figure out how to fill those slots.

Tragnar wrote: »

Indeed it is balanced around active skills, however augments augment gameplay power of those skills thus giving you X amount of variations of the same skill.

Augments primarily impact variety rather than power.
It's considerably more horizontal than it is vertical.
You could try to play the meta if you wanted to but the design won't support that view.
Necromancer, High Priest, Shadow Disciple will all be viable. Dungeons and Raids will be successful with any of them.

Tragnar wrote: »

If in wow replacing a person would take several times longer than just doing a longer run with offmeta specs then the exclusion wouldnt be so widespread. It is just a matter of mistaking correlation with causation. It is literally the same situation as those populists were arguing that video games create real life violence, because some people had mental problems and they owned video games at the same time

You are the one talking about your feelings and expecting your feelings to convince others.
Unlikely that it is just a matter of mistaking correlation with causation because not only is Steven against DPS meters, the Daybreak devs agree with him. And the devs have actually data and numbers, so... you know.. that wins.

Galux

Tragnar wrote: »

@Galux
This answer is the reason, why I don't share my "feelings" - today's my weak day i guess.

That's quite alright, it happens to everyone. You should share your feelings but perhaps not on a game forum about a topic that can get pretty heated

You want to talk then just throw a pm

rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

You are the one talking about your feelings and expecting your feelings to convince others.
Unlikely that it is just a matter of mistaking correlation with causation because not only is Steven against DPS meters, the Daybreak devs agree with him. And the devs have actually data and numbers, so... you know.. that wins.

Steven are against Addons like Weakauras and deadly boss mods which tells you everything you need to do during the boss encounter, he is not against combat trackers.

"My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players."

Addons can not automate, can not make it easier, can not create less failures by making less experience or less optimized players follow an addon. This is something combat trackers CAN NOT DO. It can help provide information about the encounter after the fight.

"IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters."

This is not a problem combat tracker problem as we have stated before. (Toxic player, different ways of playing the game, different opinions,...,)

"The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players."

Could people use combat tracker to aid in this? YES!!!! To exclude yes but still not the fault of the combat tracker. It will only happen when you play with the wrong group of players. And from my experience hardcore combat tracker player do fail on encounters and grow together by helping each other by providing facts and knowledge based on previous experience (trial and error).

Steven isn't against combat trackers, he is against Addons like Weakauras and deadly boss mods.

Quotes from: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/235176#Comment_235176

Tragnar

Dygz wrote: »

I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.
A raid encounter is designed around four 8-person groups.
You don't need DPS meters or combat trackers to figure out how to fill those slots.

5x 8-person groups that coordinate together? This means if there are game mechanics that require a specific archetype then you get the bare minimum amount of players for it - the better the players the minimum amount is lower, because a great mmo player can literally perform up to several times more than your average joe. So if you truly need in every raid every archetype you can scale down few archetypes to a single player and stack just stronger archetypes with stronger builds

Augments primarily impact variety rather than power.
It's considerably more horizontal than it is vertical.
You could try to play the meta if you wanted to but the design won't support that view.
Necromancer, High Priest, Shadow Disciple will all be viable. Dungeons and Raids will be successful with any of them.

If you horizontally reallocate power to better suit your needs then you've increased the power's efficiency and thus you increased it vertically for what you need it for.
"Horizontal progression" is spiced up vertical progression

Unlikely that it is just a matter of mistaking correlation with causation because not only is Steven against DPS meters, the Daybreak devs agree with him. And the devs have actually data and numbers, so... you know.. that wins.
You are the one talking about your feelings and expecting your feelings to convince others.

The reason why as a developer you might be against dps meters is simple - it can show players how bad they are and they might stop playing your game. I don't know what Daybreak devs said, but since you are using it as a validation for Steven then I assume they said the exact same thing. And again I repeat myself - correlation isnt causation. To blame tools that show facts for player toxicity is extremely naive or just straight up shifting blame from gameplay systems that encourage toxicity

Like I get - if you have a toxic community it is way easier to blame information gathering tools rather than game systems encouraging toxic environment

Aerlana

Jxshuwu wrote: »

''In the end I have always a feeling that many players that are against meters are just people that don't want any loose conditions'' > We just don't want a meta to form so quickly each patch that you HAVE to play that specific class or you get excluded from content. Like in WoW, you literally get kicked if you don't play meta, even though you might not enjoy that class. Meta will still exist regardless, just less defined and more broad.

In MOP, hunter got the 3 specs deep on the bottom of DPS on most fight (all?)
And... i never threw out the hunter of our raid.
And i saw a lot of raid (even in the top1 guild of the serv) that used hunter.

META is a thing,
but then there is 2 kind of people
1) those who watches meta, and without any understanding follow it.
2) those who watches meta, understand it and... don't care fitting it if it says "play this you dislike"

The first ? i let them change with meta changes, it is fun to see this
The other we just enjoy the game.

Just watch lol, where some people try to play meta but throw up all games because they don't understand that meta and "counter" does not gives skill...

And aslo... people that "define" meta with parsers. they are the theorycrafters. They don't stop when they find a "really strong thing" that becomes meta. they don't stop there. they always try to find new things. another example i know from WoW : at Legion or BFA, without any patch, the meta war suddenly changed because theorycrafter discovered that with a specific build + stuff, a spec did far much better work than the current meta. was after the raid was well running and the world first run was totally over.

And final thing about "meta and dumb people" back in TBC, there was the last raid, much harder than most of the xpac bosses. the world first on one boss, there wasn't any rogue in the raid,
all players came crazy "rogues sucks so they didn't took one" Guild answer "when we did the raid to try again the kill, we didn't have any of our rogues logged in" . . .

The meta is a thing that exist really fast, even without any kind of parser, don't expect more than one month to see a first one appear. What parser does is at this point to see the meta change with less evident thing. And to understand in detail why a build is bad.
It is not because there is proof that your build is bad, that your build is not bad. and there is many way to try to see it, without parser... parser is just collecting and showing data... now take an ennemy with 10k life, and count how much time each build kill it and you have a begining of meta.

And i will finish this post with one fact :

No in game parser in FFXIV. Third party program are forbidden. Some people were banned for using parser "against" other players (kicking them with in chat "you have to low damages" as message. now people kick without saying why, no more ban)
and this exists : https://www.fflogs.com/

Don't think that having no ingame parser will avoid any kind of bad behaviour due to parser...

Aerlana

Tragnar wrote: »

Like I get - if you have a toxic community it is way easier to blame information gathering tools rather than game systems encouraging toxic environment

This is the point.

There is lot of things to do...

At first, people have to accept to play a bad archetype, not raging against it. "Yes i don"t play one of the top build and ? i like it"

At second, have a game not only in a vertical logic :

Fight are not just mitigation + healing + DPS
it is also people doing clsoe to 0 damages but remains helpfull. (lets see bard in FFXI, or a kind of build of red mage in FFXI where they were able to put all their debuff on ennemies even with the most debuff-resist possible). a last example : a build not so good in mono target can be a monster in AOE situation. (don't have to explain why it is usefull a such build sometime ? )
There is also all crowd controll, kiting, interrupt things.

Finally, the game is PvP heavy... and having the big DPS is not enough is such situation.

there will be some build that will clearly underperform, and we will see it even without parser. We d'ont need parser so to ask people to respec from one better. the only difference it will be more about "pack" instead having a clear ranking. but because people aiming to optimize the most fear randomness, they will totally avoid the classes SUSPECTED to underperform...

We (as community) have to be less focused on a brainless mind of "only best builds matter"
else, the problem will exist, with or without any kind of in game parser...

Dygz

rikardp98 wrote: »

Steven isn't against combat trackers, he is against Addons like Weakauras and deadly boss mods.

Ashes will only have a personal combat tracker.
Steven is opposed to dps meters because "they help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players."

Instead, Steven believes, "things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that includes failing together as a means to drive for success together."

Also, "Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, 'Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!' It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, 'Oh! We need to do exactly this.' Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group.
Now, that is the type of experience we want to replicate: that everybody is in this together type of scenario where we build the teams we are friends with up and we accomplish content together. It kind of also provides this mystery effect, where you're required to actually participate and watch what's going on and not just rely on that DPS meter."

"It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience" really says all we need to know.

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

5x 8-person groups that coordinate together? This means if there are game mechanics that require a specific archetype then you get the bare minimum amount of players for it - the better the players the minimum amount is lower, because a great mmo player can literally perform up to several times more than your average joe. So if you truly need in every raid every archetype you can scale down few archetypes to a single player and stack just stronger archetypes with stronger builds.

Yeah. That is 5x each Primary Archetype.
I don't know what you mean by stacking stronger archetypes - stronger archetypes is not a thing.

If you horizontally reallocate power to better suit your needs then you've increased the power's efficiency and thus you increased it vertically for what you need it for.
"Horizontal progression" is spiced up vertical progression

You don't need to increase power efficiency, you just need to figure out winning tactics.

"Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that includes failing together as a means to drive for success together."
"Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, 'Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!' It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, 'Oh! We need to do exactly this.' Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group."

The reason why as a developer you might be against dps meters is simple - it can show players how bad they are and they might stop playing your game. I don't know what Daybreak devs said, but since you are using it as a validation for Steven then I assume they said the exact same thing. And again I repeat myself - correlation isnt causation. To blame tools that show facts for player toxicity is extremely naive or just straight up shifting blame from gameplay systems that encourage toxicity

Theoretically it might be why, but it's not actually why.
"Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, 'Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!' It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, 'Oh! We need to do exactly this.' Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group."

The Daybreak devs can evaluate the data to determine whether it's correlation or causation.
You can't.

Ruerik

I am 100% pro dps meter. I love seeing my damage, and if I see someone do more than me I look for how I can reach that. There are also many examples of how they are useful in raids as well.

To alleviate the elitism people feel comes from dps meters, make them opt in.
The raid leader has a option to try to turn on dps meter for the raid. Allow everyone to see everyones damage.
When the raid leader tries to turn on the dps meter, everyone gets a opt in message.

If someone opts out. The raid leader gets a message with who opts out. At that point, a discussion will happen, and the person who doesnt want their damage to be known can decide to leave, or ask to stay, and the raid leader can decide if its worth doing the raid without the meter or not. Experience will tell me that the raid leader will tell the person to have a good day, and find a replacement. Simple as that, no toxicity involved.

The reverse situation can also happen if someone wants a meter turned on and the raid leader says no.

Trying to force players that want the meter turned on to play with it turned off because some dont want it will create toxicity. These players have different playstyles, we should not try to force one to align with the other and let them enjoy playing how they like.

To the point posted above about exclusion when someone is not pulling their weight. If the rest of the team is capable of carrying dead weight and dont mind because everyone is friends, that is fine. If not then....
Yes, if someone does not want to take the time to learn job rotations to do sufficient damage to clear an encounter, then they are sandbagging you and need to be replaced. You need the meter to see someone being lazy and holding you down.

If someone is mechanically unable to do an encounter and are not spending the effort to pay attention and learn what the boss mechanics, then yes you will replace them. No meter required here.

Look at it this way, why would you destroy an entire groups enjoyment just for one person who is being negligent by refusing to play at a required level. It may not seem that way on the surface because the person just wants to 'play casually', but raids are rarely designed to be casual content, and are meant to be challenging to complete. You want people who will put effort into it.

TLDR. IN game supported meter with opt in please

Dygz

Taerrik wrote: »

If someone is mechanically unable to do an encounter and are not spending the effort to pay attention and learn what the boss mechanics, then yes you will replace them. No meter required here.

If everyone in the group/raid is max level, an individual will not be mechanically unable to do an encounter.
So, combat tracker numbers are irrelevant.
You should be able to tell what active skills people are using without a combat tracker.

Look at it this way, why would you destroy an entire groups enjoyment just for one person who is being negligent by refusing to play at a required level. It may not seem that way on the surface because the person just wants to 'play casually', but raids are rarely designed to be casual content, and are meant to be challenging to complete. You want people who will put effort into it.

Hmmmn mmmmn. And lots of PvEers would prefer to have a separate PvE-Only server.

It's not really about players not paying attention or being negligent.
It's about people getting kicked because someone looks at a bunch of numbers and decides someone should have higher numbers. And it's about deciding that the sub-class with the highest numbers must be the most efficient and therefore the only viable build.
The only reason why it seems like one person isn't fulfilling their role is because the person who is kicked is the one with the lowest numbers.
"Leroy has the lowest numbers, so it's all Leroy's fault!"

Steven: "Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, 'Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!' It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, 'Oh! We need to do exactly this.' Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group."

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes will only have a personal combat tracker.
Steven is opposed to dps meters because "they help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players."

The problem with this is that this is not what a combat tracker does.

In order to automate something, there needs to be interaction both ways between the game client and the combat tracker. Since this isnt the case (combat trackers take information from the game client, but do not send anything back to it), it is literally impossible for a combat tracker to automate things.

When Stwven said this, all it did was point out to those that actually use combat trackers that he in fact doesn't know what he is talking about.

All you repeating it is doing is reinforcing the notion that Inteepids stance on combat trackers is in fact built on a near total lack of understanding about what they do, and what they dont do.

It's like someone saying they dont want to work in a QA department of a large fame developer/publisher, because they dont like dealing with the public. All that statement does is show that the person in question doesnt know the difference between QA and CS.

In this case, Steven is simply showing us all that he doesn't know the difference between a combat tracker and a combat assistant - yet is making decisions about combat trackers anyway.

Aerlana

You just forget that people will always find a way to define who comes or comes not, who have to leave.

In more than 15 years mmorpg, i did see a lot... the parser was probably the less stupid of all.
The meta exists without parser, and without parser you can't prove that you are worth joining the party if you have not one of the sacred build. (because having the op build but being unable to play is far worse than a underperforming build but you play perfectly... )

it will be "leroy" fault for many reasons if they want to kick one guy judging him underperforming, and being a dead weight for the team. Some time it is for good reason, sometimes...

And you speak about "help people to learn the game"
When i was in end game either wow or FFXIV, we had to test people. Sometime we saw really bad people, was not even needed a parser to see it... just fact. i will take an example from now :

Was for the first raid in FFXIV : Heavensward (alexander gordias) The first instance of this begins with a pure DPS check, then the boss. our team had no problem to do this, but one member had to left the game. So... let's find people in the Free company.
There were 2 candidate, so we took them both in alexander gordias. the DPS check was really close (and we failed it 2 times) and then, we were clearly far from killing boss.
When you see this, it was clear that at least one of them was totally not at the play level of the boss (and because we used a parser we had proof it was not one but both who totally underperformed ^^')
They were so low that was not only matter of using CD at the good timing... their skill rotation was bad

Parser is rarelly needed to kick anyone for being a deadweight. I rarely had to kick "because parser said so" there is so many things around such people...

BUT each time, the parsers were helpful to... HELP those people in mastering their class.
In the same example, i didn't just say "here, its how i play my class, do like me, you will be better" ... would be the worst way to do.
Nope, was on dummy, with parser turned on, and showing, with parser by doing different thing, how my DPS can vary. "see if i do this, there is clearly more damages than doing this". The only way i had to explain him how to play was what i did to find how to play my BLM : math... calculation... And a lot of people hate when you come with too much calculation. The last way was just "trust me, do this and it will be good"... it is the worst way to do ever.

Parser is not the problem around toxicity, kicking, etc.
Also, parser is not what did change what boss fight are .People will always do theorycraft, and try it in game, to find the best way to do as much DPS as possible, not giving a parser will never change anything about it.

The tool is not the monster. the monster is the one using the tool in a toxic way... Mostly they are people just focusing on "DPS" during a fight and nothing else...

I understand what steven said, but he watched the wrong ennemy. His speech speak about parser but for a problem that is not from parser. the "we need 6,7% more damages" is not from the parser... it is because the boss enrage when he is 6,7% life left. Even without parser we can see it. But the parser becomes the tool with which people will try to find how to improve their personnal DPS by 7%
the problem is more the "boss mods" saying litterally "warning, boss prepare its big AE, move from where you are to safe spot" and YES this is a problem about learning fight, learning the game.
Parser are tool to see how effectiv you were, and how effectiv you are now. how each member was and is now.

Now, just imagine a situation : the boss is hard, and it is clear that one of the problem to kill him is "need more DPS" (easy to see). You want to do more damages because it is what all 40 people needs : more global DPS (so from you and the others). you have 1 idea. One thing to change in rotation. this change is suboptimal in most situation but you feel it can be better for the current situation.
How can you be sure after trying it it was more or less efficient ?

i played all along vanilla trying to be better, give as much damages as i could without using any parser. i was always "not sure if good idea" and finally, today, i think that some of change i did on some boss did lowered my dps. From BC i used parser, and ... there i had the tool to try, to learn, to improve. because i could see try after try how my DPS was rising or not.

If you looked world first run in WoW or FFXIV, you see that the "try, die, and retry to learn more and more" you see that the top players does this. they "win the encounter through trial and error" Some world first was after 300 wipe from the same guild on the boss... 300 try before the one that allowed to kill boss. and for doing a lot of endgame PvE until end of heavensward, i can confirm, even with parser, we needed to try, do error, try to understand mechanics of the boss before killing it. the parser just helped to see if the little change we did was worth to get more DPS in fight. Was clearly not the only things (the one shot mechanics in FFXIV are not a rare thing), but was needed.

And i had the same joyce, the same happiness when i did my first kill in my guild on some bosses like Ragnaros, Nefarian (without parser), than when i killed Nael Deus Darnus or Alexander (with parser to check between try how i (d)evolved)) Because i learned a hard fight, and managed to go from a wipe in the first minute, to a kill some few second before enrage. I learned mechanic, i learned the best way to do mechanics without losing too much DPS. with or without parser, if the fight is hard, it will always be needed, with or without Parser...

Parser does most of the learning work in fight like the infamous "patchwerk" where it is "tank, heal, and dps" and nothing else than this... what we call "gear check" or "DPS check" but never was interesting fights...

Dygz

Well, yeah, if the encounters are designed for groups to use DPS meters, having DPS meters will be a necessity.
You don't need meters to figure out how to defeat encounters if the encounters are not designed for relying on DPS meters.

You will have a personal combat tracker. You've already conceded that's all you need.

Aerlana

fights always include to try to maximize DPS, even without any enrage.
no design are built around "having DPS meter" but just "doing as much DPS as possible while... avoiding AE, doing specific mechanics, doing cc on adds, kiting the other add, interrupt the boss, etc etc etc"

The most common thing to force a raid to get as much DPS as possible is simply "the enrage" but Enrage did exist even in game where boss don't have
The less DPS you have => the longer the fight is => lower mana of healers is => closer to wipe you are.
Healers mana was the first enrage timer. (and i prefer "soft enrage" allowing team with powerfull healer to get more time than strict enrage in which you wipe when you reach the timer)

Yes i did concede that a personnal parser to read is all WE need
But i see you using a lot what Steven said about parsers aaaand... had to defend the parser again...

For all : don't think that not having ingame parser will avoid stupid kick from a stupid raidleader considering XXX is clearly a deadweight. And don't think there won't be meta without parser. this is the only two argument people here gives again and again (just dygz say anything else ^^')

People will always find ways to discriminate the others. I think it is better to have an objectiv one than subjectiv one.

Parser is a good tool to prove the meta wrong, or at least, showing that while meta is good, your non-meta build does also a decent work. As raid lead i prefered people with a non meta build but able to speak about their class, than people obeying the meta ... but without understanding it. (the first ended being far better during raid than second one)

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Steven against DPS meters, the Daybreak devs agree with him.

I'm afraid I'm going to need a reference for this claim.

I know for a fact this doesnt pertain to the developers on EQ2

Going all the way back to LU#13,when it was SOE, the developers were actively ASKING players to use combat trackers and report anything they found odd.

Aerelik was an avid user of combat trackers himself, and he was the developer responsible for combat for close to a decade.

Moorgard was more than happy to have them in the game

Illucide used to comment on parses of the encounter Villucide that he outdps'd people.

So yeah, I dont think you can say "Daybreak" agree with Steven. That said, I can say that developers at Intrepid disagree with Steven

Chronomage

DPS meters, Raider.IO, GearScore, Item Level etc... Make games toxic. They push the players and developers in opposing directions, between themselves and each other. They are not necessary. I have played MMO's since 1999, we didn't have "add ons" until partway through vanilla WoW. Look at that community now... Focus on the game, focus on the content, not ways to alleviate the player base. This game is going to take A LOT of coordination between players. There is no room or time to mess with logs, dps meters, etc. While you are pouring over your "logs" I will be taking your caravan, castles, and you gold right out from under you.

You want to know if you are "doing your job"? You will know when the mobs, and players are dead at your feet, and you are still standing. It's time to put the RPG back in MMORPG.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Well, yeah, if the encounters are designed for groups to use DPS meters, having DPS meters will be a necessity.
You don't need meters to figure out how to defeat encounters if the encounters are not designed for relying on DPS meters.

You will have a personal combat tracker. You've already conceded that's all you need.

In other words, not wanting a combat tracker is the same as not wanting content that needs a combat tracker.

Since content that needs a combat tracker is by definition more complex, not wanting a combat tracker is the same as wanting less complex content.

Noaani

Chronomage wrote: »

DPS meters, Raider.IO, GearScore, Item Level etc... Make games toxic.

You are lumping a whole lot of things together, taking a look at then from the perspective of a game that fosters toxicity, and then saying that collaboration of unconmected things is causing toxicity.

WoWs toxic nature is caused 100% by that games lack of respect for players. Since the game allows you to boot players from groups mid content and replace them almost automatically, and also allows groups to be formed across servers so you wont ever run in to the same people again, the game literally gives players tools to treat each other like ahit without consequence.

You simply cant look any further than WoWs LFG system to explain all of the toxicity in that game.

rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

Steven isn't against combat trackers, he is against Addons like Weakauras and deadly boss mods.

Ashes will only have a personal combat tracker.
Steven is opposed to dps meters because "they help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players."

Instead, Steven believes, "things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that includes failing together as a means to drive for success together."

Also, "Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, 'Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!' It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, 'Oh! We need to do exactly this.' Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group.
Now, that is the type of experience we want to replicate: that everybody is in this together type of scenario where we build the teams we are friends with up and we accomplish content together. It kind of also provides this mystery effect, where you're required to actually participate and watch what's going on and not just rely on that DPS meter."

"It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience" really says all we need to know.

As I have sated many times, Addons can not automate, can not make it easier, can not create less failures by making less experience or less optimized players follow an addon. This is something combat trackers CAN NOT DO. It can help provide information about the encounter after the fight. Steven is against addons like Weakauras and Deadly boss mods. If you don't now the different then that's your fault

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