The "Hearthstone" Dilemma - Potential Solution

Making this a separate topic because I feel this may be a solution that is different from anything other games have offered while still sticking true to core values that AoC is promising.

Gliding mounts will be in game and offer players the ability glide or hover above the ground a few feet. For example, a gryphon (with clipped wings I guess? haha). If water mounts allow exceptional travel in water and ground mounts allow for sprints and other functions, why can't "gliding" mounts offer the ability to truly glide through the sky?

During a raid or roaming, your risk is always there with a potential counter raid. Do we really need the risk of traveling back home? Is it really that important for this game to still be fun and engaging and difficult?

My suggestion is this, give players the ability to launch into the air from specific locations in main cities and after a raid is cleared and glide freely until they hit the ground OR for X amount of time. There could be an npc that appears after the end boss is cleared giving you the option. The NPC can tie in to the lore/gods and offer assistance.

What this does it is gives a raid group (or any individual player) a boost from the city to head in the direction they need to go. I am not talking about being able to traverse vast distances....just a boost to clear the area without traveling back through the city. This also gives the raid a way to get some of the travel time back. A reward for defeating the last boss of a raid or dungeon. Maybe even a cool animation that sends us up. I don't see how this could hurt the core values or lower any real risk.

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Dygz

CROW3

Maezriel wrote: »

No one coming out of a raid is going to be completely buffed and organized...

Honestly I'd rather see those who are participating in the raid (open or instanced) get a buff that last for X amount of time (maybe an hour or so?) that makes them immune to death penalties…

If raids in Ashes are meant to be hard the last thing you should have to do after a battle is fight all the way back against fresh people...

It’s just going to be a different model. Raiding is going to be challenging. The raid starts when you leave town, the raid ends when the party is back safely. Adjust accordingly.

If that’s asking too much of you, that’s ok.

Maezriel

CROW3 wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

No one coming out of a raid is going to be completely buffed and organized...

Honestly I'd rather see those who are participating in the raid (open or instanced) get a buff that last for X amount of time (maybe an hour or so?) that makes them immune to death penalties…

If raids in Ashes are meant to be hard the last thing you should have to do after a battle is fight all the way back against fresh people...

It’s just going to be a different model. Raiding is going to be challenging. The raid starts when you leave town, the raid ends when the party is back safely. Adjust accordingly.

If that’s asking too much of you, that’s ok.

"If thAt’s AskIng tOO mUch Of yOU, thAt’s Ok"

C'mon man what an insulting and lazy non-argument that far too many people here fall back on.

I'm not saying we should get teleported in and out, but that if the raid is the focus let the raid be the focus just like it is for Caravans and Sieges. Plenty of time to PvP on the way to the raid to shave away at other guild's buffs and to fight at the raid over who gets the loot but once the battle is done it should be done.

We've all heard Steven's story of fighting over an objective for over 24 hours...we know that's the kind of game he's looking to make. So lets assume Raids won't be loot piñatas and will take a good chunk of time for the boss to die. Under that circumstance, kindly explain how fighting all the way to a raid and then getting hunted half way across the map until you're home isn't a system that sounds more fun on paper than practice.

Also think of the balance aspect, if all I have to do in order to get the mats that dropped from the boss is wait and gank the guy holding them then there's WAY more risk on the victors than will ever be on the guy getting a bit of Corruption.

Noaani

Maezriel wrote: »

if the raid is the focus let the raid be the focus.

The raid isn't the focus.

The PvP is.

As a raider myself, that is simply the reality of Ashes.

Ashes claims to be a PvX game, but no one has defined what PvX means - so the notion needs to be dismissed until it is defined.

If we then look at everything we know of in Ashes, every aspect of the game is subject to PvP. As such, if instanced raiding is to be a thing, there needs to be a factor of it that is directly subject to PvP. Without that aspect, instanced raiding simply won't exist.

So, the conclusion here is - the raid is not the focus, the PvP is.

Maezriel

Noaani wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

if the raid is the focus let the raid be the focus.

The raid isn't the focus.

The PvP is.

As a raider myself, that is simply the reality of Ashes.

Ashes claims to be a PvX game, but no one has defined what PvX means - so the notion needs to be dismissed until it is defined.

If we then look at everything we know of in Ashes, every aspect of the game is subject to PvP. As such, if instanced raiding is to be a thing, there needs to be a factor of it that is directly subject to PvP. Without that aspect, instanced raiding simply won't exist.

So, the conclusion here is - the raid is not the focus, the PvP is.

Which is why my question for the Q&A will be asking for an official answer on whether or not Death Penalties will be applied to raids and city attack events so we can finally know once and for all.

I know all too well that you're aware that if PvP is the focus in a raid that the bosses will just turn into piñatas.

Noaani

Maezriel wrote: »

I know all too well that you're aware that if PvP is the focus in a raid that the bosses will just turn into piñatas.

Yeah, for sure.

That's why I want instanced raids - as you know. Thing is, instancing them takes that PvP away (which is the point). This allows the raids themselves to be harder, but that PvP component still needs to be put back in somewhere - at least in Ashes it does.

To me, the above is the best solution I have seen. It is not the only method, just the best that I have seen active in a game (even though the implementation in question wasn't on instanced content).

I'm actually for them introducing a variety of ways to add PvP back in to the mix in regards to instanced content - not just the one above.

The key point is - all content in Ashes will need to be subject to PvP in some manner, so raiders will need an entirely different mindset in Ashes (assuming the game even supports raiders at all).

CROW3

Maezriel wrote: »

"If thAt’s AskIng tOO mUch Of yOU, thAt’s Ok"

C'mon man what an insulting and lazy non-argument that far too many people here fall back on.

It IS a non-argument, cause there’s no argument there. It’s your choice and I’m not interested in making your choices for you. If you find that insulting or lazy, ok - those are your bags to carry.

Maezriel wrote: »

kindly explain how fighting all the way to a raid and then getting hunted half way across the map until you're home isn't a system that sounds more fun on paper…

Also think of the balance aspect, if all I have to do in order to get the mats that dropped from the boss is wait and gank the guy holding them then there's WAY more risk on the victors than will ever be on the guy getting a bit of Corruption.

Well, I’ve known for years that this is the system Intrepid is creating, I’m paying money to play in that system, and going to log in and play that system with eyes wide open. I’m not going to accidentally discover that raids or exploration or gathering is going to have some risk (sometimes higher, sometimes lower) just by setting foot in the world.

So, again - plan, prepare, and play accordingly.

Maezriel

CROW3 wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

"If thAt’s AskIng tOO mUch Of yOU, thAt’s Ok"

C'mon man what an insulting and lazy non-argument that far too many people here fall back on.

It IS a non-argument, cause there’s no argument there. It’s your choice and I’m not interested in making your choices for you. If you find that insulting or lazy, ok - those are your bags to carry.

Maezriel wrote: »

kindly explain how fighting all the way to a raid and then getting hunted half way across the map until you're home isn't a system that sounds more fun on paper…

Also think of the balance aspect, if all I have to do in order to get the mats that dropped from the boss is wait and gank the guy holding them then there's WAY more risk on the victors than will ever be on the guy getting a bit of Corruption.

Well, I’ve known for years that this is the system Intrepid is creating, I’m paying money to play in that system, and going to log in and play that system with eyes wide open. I’m not going to accidentally discover that raids or exploration or gathering is going to have some risk (sometimes higher, sometimes lower) just by setting foot in the world.

So, again - plan, prepare, and play accordingly.

Caravans and Sieges have been part of development for years and yet plenty aren't aware that death penalties don't apply to them b/c the risk and reward are based on their objectives not on the punishment of death.

There's absolutely nothing stating that the same can't or won't be done for PvE raids.

It's not like I'm demanding flying mounts for everyone, my argument is very much rooted in exactly the systems and goals Intrepid already has built out.

CROW3

Maezriel wrote: »

Caravans and Sieges have been part of development for years and yet plenty aren't aware that death penalties don't apply to them b/c the risk and reward are based on their objectives not on the punishment of death.

There's absolutely nothing stating that the same can't or won't be done for PvE raids.

From the Ashes wiki (go down to the 'Open World' sub-section):

Ashes of Creation Wiki | Raids > Open World wrote:

There will be open world dungeons and raids. The aspiration is to maintain the open world feel while being able to capitalize on the benefits of instanced mechanics.[48]

- Instancing is only going to happen in certain dungeons where the desire is to have greater narrative appeal. Outside of these and arenas there will not be too much instancing anywhere else.[47]
- There will be an 80/20 split between open world vs instanced encounters.[46][49][50]
- There is no instancing in Alpha-1.[51]

"We're probably going to do instancing only in certain dungeons and in arenas. You probably won't see instancing too much anywhere else. What you see is gonna be what you get.[47]" – Jeffrey Bard

The PvP flagging system presents an opportunity for open conflict.[52]

I know you want to be safe from PvP as a raider, but that's explicitly not a thing in Ashes.

Maezriel

CROW3 wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

Caravans and Sieges have been part of development for years and yet plenty aren't aware that death penalties don't apply to them b/c the risk and reward are based on their objectives not on the punishment of death.

There's absolutely nothing stating that the same can't or won't be done for PvE raids.

From the Ashes wiki (go down to the 'Open World' sub-section):

Ashes of Creation Wiki | Raids > Open World wrote:

There will be open world dungeons and raids. The aspiration is to maintain the open world feel while being able to capitalize on the benefits of instanced mechanics.[48]

- Instancing is only going to happen in certain dungeons where the desire is to have greater narrative appeal. Outside of these and arenas there will not be too much instancing anywhere else.[47]
- There will be an 80/20 split between open world vs instanced encounters.[46][49][50]
- There is no instancing in Alpha-1.[51]

"We're probably going to do instancing only in certain dungeons and in arenas. You probably won't see instancing too much anywhere else. What you see is gonna be what you get.[47]" – Jeffrey Bard

The PvP flagging system presents an opportunity for open conflict.[52]

What you quoted has nothing to do w/ Death Penalties which is what I've been talking about. I'm fine w/ being flagged, fine w/ PvP, but I do not in anyway think Death Penalties should apply to Raids which includes dropping loot.

The focus of the raid should be on being the last one standing against the boss and getting the 40% damage to loot it—not ganking someone for the BiS mats on their way back from the fight.

CROW3

@Maezriel - "The PvP flagging system presents an opportunity for open conflict." implies that the death penalties associated with being in the world apply normally. Which I'm fine with, and I don't think I'm alone in accepting that risk for what it is.

The attacking players are also taking the same normative risks with the corruption / flagging system that 1) you even have BIS mats worth attempting to take, 2) they are willing to risk the possible corruption and 3) that they will win.

Maezriel

CROW3 wrote: »

@Maezriel - "The PvP flagging system presents an opportunity for open conflict." implies that the death penalties associated with being in the world apply normally. Which I'm fine with, and I don't think I'm alone in accepting that risk for what it is.

The attacking players are also taking the same normative risks with the corruption / flagging system that 1) you even have BIS mats worth attempting to take, 2) they are willing to risk the possible corruption and 3) that they will win.

Caravans are open world, immediately flag you, and don't have Death Penalties.

That was said in the December 2020 Livestream

Intrepid has been very specific w/ how they focus and balance Risk v Reward. Not everything is about just avoiding XP Debt and dropping loot.

CROW3

Maezriel wrote: »

Caravans are open world, immediately flag you, and don't have Death Penalties.

No. Caravans are moving PvP zones that have an adjusted ruleset from the open world outside that PvP zone. No one has stated this same type of ruleset will be extended to help a raid move safely through the world. In fact, what has been stated is the opposite. That may change later...

Dygz

Caravans are considered to be battlegrounds - just like Sieges.
Raids are not considered to be battlegrounds - they are open-world and intended to be contested.

Maezriel

Dygz wrote: »

Caravans are considered to be battlegrounds - just like Sieges.
Raids are not considered to be battlegrounds - they are open-world and intended to be contested.

So much confidence from you and @CROW3 when we don't know that for sure. The last we heard were about Events not Battlegrounds and Raids can certainly fall into the definition of Event.

As I've already stated in this thread it'll be my Q&A question for this month so please be on the look for it and be sure to give it a thumbs up so that we can finally put the near 4 year debate about raids to rest.

CROW3

Ok.

Dygz

Maezriel wrote: »

As I've already stated in this thread it'll be my Q&A question for this month so please be on the look for it and be sure to give it a thumbs up so that we can finally put the near 4 year debate about raids to rest.

I know what the design is.
CROW3 even gave you the out of..."That may change later."
There should not have been a 4 year debate about raids being contested.

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