Why is tab target, or the original combat style in MMOs, so alienated now?

I played New World beta this weekend. It's not for me. I hated the combat.

To be frank, I have hated the way combat has been going in MMOs for many years now. I come from Everquest; the tab target games of old. I loved the combat in EQ, but I can understand a need to modernise it.

For me, the combat in SWTOR was fantastic. It felt fluid and engrossing, despite being tab target still.

In recent years the change has happened.

First we got Guild Wars 2; a game that, for me, seemed to be all about jumping around like a bloody kangaroo. ESO wasn't so bad. Wildstar was even worse than GW2.

New World's combat is about as far from my comfort zone as it is possible to get. It was like a bad nightmare for me and as far from the likes of EQ, EQ2 or SWTOR as I believe it is possible to get.

I'm middle aged with the coordination of an blind Elephant with its legs tied together. Tab target combat gave me something I could enjoy and keep up with. I bought an MMO mouse and felt I did well at combat in SWTOR. I had to move on from a button masher to using keyboard/mouse.

I'm glad Ashes is trying to develop a hybrid system, but the one thing that always made me nervous was that Intrepid wanted some form of action combat.

I just feel like MMOs are getting further and further away from something I like and enjoy to something for the skill enabled kids of the 2000s.

I'll continue to have fait in Ashes because the game seems to be endeavouring to offer something aside from combat. I can be an artisan alone. I do want to enjoy some combat though. I remember Vanguard and the ability to be an artisan solely in that game. There was a mix with combat though and you had to go to some dangerous areas to acquire rare items or finding artisan camps.

So, is it a younger generation thing? Are us old farts just out of luck now? Do I have to adapt?

This action combat is not going away, is it?

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Azherae

Dreoh wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Because an MMORPG is an RPG which means it will have RNG.
You can make some other type of game that doesn't have RNG, sure.

Ok, explain New World.

It's an RPG, whether you like it or not. It has stats, it has stat-based combat. It has stat progression. It has roles to play.

Or is your definition of RPG literally "chance-based game"?

Edit: You're creating an arbitrary rule for "RPG" to quantify never innovating upon the genre and bring it into the modern world.

To be fair here, Fantasy MMORPGs technically 'need' some RNG because otherwise they have to build a fair combat system on a level that most players absolutely would not put up with.

If you want to 'drag people kicking and screaming into the modern era', that's a stance to have, but the combat systems in an Action MMORPG without RNG are not for the faint of heart, and anything less than approximately Absolver is just 'RNG with extra steps to mask it'.

Merek

Dygz wrote: »

New World is a hardcore PvP-centric MMO survival game that the devs are trying to tone down so it has greater appeal to MMORPG fans.

And Ashes isn't a hardcore PVP-centric MMO? The entire game is built around the premise of fighting for cities that control areas of the map.

And about the RNG mini-debate within this topic, RNG doesn't make or break an 'RPG'. If you're so determined to have RNG go back to the tabletop.

Dreoh

Azherae wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Because an MMORPG is an RPG which means it will have RNG.
You can make some other type of game that doesn't have RNG, sure.

Ok, explain New World.

It's an RPG, whether you like it or not. It has stats, it has stat-based combat. It has stat progression. It has roles to play.

Or is your definition of RPG literally "chance-based game"?

Edit: You're creating an arbitrary rule for "RPG" to quantify never innovating upon the genre and bring it into the modern world.

To be fair here, Fantasy MMORPGs technically 'need' some RNG because otherwise they have to build a fair combat system on a level that most players absolutely would not put up with.

If you want to 'drag people kicking and screaming into the modern era', that's a stance to have, but the combat systems in an Action MMORPG without RNG are not for the faint of heart, and anything less than approximately Absolver is just 'RNG with extra steps to mask it'.

You're completely right and I also completely agree with you.

I'm just arguing the point people are making that an RPG isn't an RPG without RnG lmao

Dreoh

Dygz wrote: »

I've already told you that New World is not an RPG. Just as American football is not soccer.
Also, kickball is not soccer and kickball is not baseball.
New World is a hardcore PvP-centric MMO survival game that the devs are trying to tone down so it has greater appeal to MMORPG fans.
It's like taking Pineapple Fanta and adding cola to try to attract more Coke fans. But, that doesn't mean it's going to become Coke.

Are the Soulsborne series games RPGs?

And have you actually tried New World? Because that's a huge oversimplification based on the original pre-rework concept and not what the current game is at all.

I completely agree with you that Rust and Conan Exiles aren't RPG's, although Conan leans very slightly towards RPG.
New World however is.

Fairtale

Because there is not a single advantage of tab-targeting, is there?

it is annoying to have multiple enemies and have to press tab 342432 times until you are facing the right one. And clicking with the mouse limits your camera movement.

Especially in pvp: targeting one enemy that gets out of range, just for another one to come close and your hero does nothing.

Tab targeting was a limitation of old games, but it has no place in this new age where we can make combat more fluid.

When you try to punch someone, do you first "select your target" or do you simply swing? And if one enemy gets out of your way, why should your swing not hit the other dude behind him?

I played wow since original vanilla before TBC, I gladly move away from this old system.

Noaani

@mr n0body

mr n0body wrote: »

Because there is not a single advantage of tab-targeting, is there?

it is annoying to have multiple enemies and have to press tab 342432 times until you are facing the right one. And clicking with the mouse limits your camera movement.

Especially in pvp: targeting one enemy that gets out of range, just for another one to come close and your hero does nothing.

Tab targeting was a limitation of old games, but it has no place in this new age where we can make combat more fluid.

When you try to punch someone, do you first "select your target" or do you simply swing? And if one enemy gets out of your way, why should your swing not hit the other dude behind him?

I played wow since original vanilla before TBC, I gladly move away from this old system.

Hi, clearly you are not very good at tab target games.

Almost all tab target games in existence have options for selecting a target other than tab. The following is a list of options most games allow you to bind to which ever key you like.

Target next enemy (usually pre-set to tab, and is the function tab target is named after)
Target previous enemy.
Target next enemy healer (in games where this is known)
Target previous enemy healer
Target highest HP enemy
Target lowest HP enemy
Target most recent enemy to damage me
Target most recent enemy to damage my friendly target
Target next enemy that is targeting me
Target previous enemy that is targeting me
Target next ally
Target previous ally
Target next ally healer
Target previous ally healer
Target lowest HP ally
Save current enemy target
Save current friendly target
Call back to saved enemy target
Call back to saved friendly target

Now, your post seems to suggest that you think pressing tab is all there is to targeting in a tab target game, and you have passed judgement on tab target as a whole based on this. I would suggest that this very clearly false assumption has caused you to come to an inaccurate conclusion as to what tab targeting can be - you are clearly not using a tab target system to it's fullest potential.

Now, I know WoW doesn't have many of the options above, but it does have a good number of them - far more than just pressing tab. As such, even though you play a very simple example of a tab target game, you are even then still not using that simple system to it's fullest.

You should at least understand a game system you are passing judgement on before passing said judgement. What you have said above is akin to someone saying they don't like action combat systems because it takes them too long to aim their abilities using the arrow keys. In both that scenario and in your case, it is clearly a case of people that simply don't know how to use the system properly, yet think they are and so assume the system in question is poor.

Fairtale

Noaani wrote: »

@mr n0body
Target highest HP enemy
Target lowest HP enemy.

so you want a cheat code to blindly select the target that is almost dead, instead of using your skill to hit the target you want?

how boring. that's exactly what I don't want, you don't seem to have understood the criticism.

Edit: and the worst part, this gives an unfair advantage to players who have set up all those keybinds, while new players stay at a disadvantage because of a counterintuitive combat system.

Noaani

mr n0body wrote: »

Edit: and the worst part, this gives an unfair advantage to players who have set up all those keybinds, while new players stay at a disadvantage because of a counterintuitive combat system.

It isn't an unfair advantage.

It is literally built right in to the game.

This is like saying you have an unfair advantage if you use all of your abilities and I only use 1. We both have access to them all, me opting to not fully use them is on me - it doesn't make you a cheater or mean that there is an unfair advantage.

All it means is I am not using everything the game has given me to use.

You don't even know most of this exists in tab target MMO's - I bet you couldn't even list which of the options WoW has (you claim to have been p[laying it for 15 years) without looking.

BaSkA_9x2

TL;DR: It's all about taste. Ashes will hopefully be good enough for either taste.

When I want to focus on aiming and being precise (with my mouse) when playing a game, I don't go play an MMORPG, I go play CS:GO. When I don't want to have to aim and be as precise (with my mouse), I don't go play an FPS game, I go play some good old MMO.

Personally, because of the fact that I enjoy both FPS games and MMORPGs, I do not see the need to have action combat in MMORPGs. However, that doesn't mean I only enjoy MMOs where positioning and mobility are meaningless, on the contrary: I believe tab target with high mobility are not mutually exclusive and are, in my opinion, both essential to make combat fun and fluid.

I feel like folks want to have some of the aspects of FPS games in MMORPGs or some of the aspects of MMORPGs in FPS games. If that's good or bad, who knows, all I know is what my preference is.

However, simply because a game has action combat, it doesn't mean its combat is better than a game with tab target and vice-versa. I'd rather have good tab target combat than bad action combat - and we have many examples of both.

I believe the approach Ashes is taking might just hit the spot. I'll probably use the 75% tab target/25% action combat option and it will hopefully be good enough for my preferences. I also hope the opposite option is good enough for people who crave for action combat.

nidriks wrote: »

This action combat is not going away, is it?

Each type of combat has its pros and cons. I hope games are able to either mix both options like Ashes is trying to. Consumers will tell companies what they want, and if people get bored of action combat, tab target will always be there. Regardless, I believe good games with tab target will still be developed, because they are easier to make and the combat can be "just as good" (in the opinion of a lotta people like ourselves).

FuryBladeborne

nidriks wrote: »

This action combat is not going away, is it?

I have the opposite opinion. This TT is not going away, is it?

For me AC is far more engaging, interesting, and enjoyable. Also, it provides a skill that can be honed to the point of being a strong advantage over others. This is different than the focus of TT in gaining an advantage by learning the best rotation for a situation. Rotations can be looked up online and practiced to a reasonable degree of skill in no more than a few hours. Many games even allow such rotations to be run on a macro.

To get really good at AC takes years to develop; and, short of cheating with an aimbot or something, the time to develop cannot be replaced.

Personally, I am ok with combining TT and AC. Hopefully they do it well. It would be nice if I was not required to have 25% of my skills as TT. However, as long as the game is good then in the end I will enjoy Ashes whether it I have to use TT or get to use AC.

Azherae

-snip-

Dygz

RPGs are Coke.

CROW3

You answered… wisely. 😉

Ramirez

Dygz wrote: »

I've already told you that New World is not an RPG. Just as American football is not soccer.
Also, kickball is not soccer and kickball is not baseball.
New World is a hardcore PvP-centric MMO survival game that the devs are trying to tone down so it has greater appeal to MMORPG fans.
It's like taking Pineapple Fanta and adding cola to try to attract more Coke fans. But, that doesn't mean it's going to become Coke.

New world have nothing of hardcore pvp centric, even AOC have more hardcore features then new world.....

Dreoh

Ramirez wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I've already told you that New World is not an RPG. Just as American football is not soccer.
Also, kickball is not soccer and kickball is not baseball.
New World is a hardcore PvP-centric MMO survival game that the devs are trying to tone down so it has greater appeal to MMORPG fans.
It's like taking Pineapple Fanta and adding cola to try to attract more Coke fans. But, that doesn't mean it's going to become Coke.

New world have nothing of hardcore pvp centric, even AOC have more hardcore features then new world.....

Yea exactly, which is why I asked if he played either of the recent betas or if his opinion is entirely shaped by the original planned concept.

Dygz

I didn't say that New World is now what it started out to be.
Just as if you add Coke to Fanta Pineapple it's not going to be very Pineappley.
It's also not going to be Coke.

Adding a soccer ball to baseball doesn't make the result soccer.

Dreoh

Both of those analogies fail to represent game design lmao

It would be more apt to say if you Changed the rules of baseball to make 3rd and first base the goals and replace the baseball with a soccer ball and have everyone play like regular soccer it would be more like soccer.

Azherae

Kickball anyone?

If you want to argue that New World is not an RPG, you functionally are setting up for a massive legal battle on the tier of 'what is a sandwich', when the real question is 'is this so-called sandwich delicious?'

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

I didn't say that New World is now what it started out to be.
Just as if you add Coke to Fanta Pineapple it's not going to be very Pineappley.
It's also not going to be Coke.

The two drinks may seem very different to you, but they are 99% the same.

If you take out that 1% that makes it fanta and replace it with the 1% that makes it coke, what you have now is coke.

All you need to do this is a working still. You can distill a drink like this down, take the remains of it, re-carbonate it, and re-flavor it (and probably replace an amount of volume). Then you have turned your fanta in to a coke that is imperceptible from coke made normally.

Sure, it's more work, but if you have a volume of fanta that needs to be coke, you can still do it.

Dygz

Azherae wrote: »

Kickball anyone?

If you want to argue that New World is not an RPG, you functionally are setting up for a massive legal battle on the tier of 'what is a sandwich', when the real question is 'is this so-called sandwich delicious?'

Chess is a delicious game but it is not backgammon, nor is checkers backgammon.
Kickball is fun, but it's not soccer.
American football is fun, but it's not soccer.

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