Another "don't forget the casual player" Post

Two or three weeks ago, I randomly came across a video on AoC. From that moment I have been watching, reading, and listening to anything I can on this game. I have never been so excited about a new game. It's so rare and perhaps nonexistent these days to see as much passion, commitment to maintaining game integrity, and scope in combination with the resources and talent required to actually pull something off as ambitious as AoC. I'm a software engineer by trade, so I have an idea of the herculean effort it will take to fully realize this game as envisioned by Steven. Seeing the recent Alpha-1 footage and monthly dev updates gives me a lot of hope they'll pull this off. Seriously, I'd give both legs to work on a project like this (no arms, I need my hands for typing).

The things making me so excited are not necessarily the numerous game mechanics, lore, classes, races, massive game map with various biomes, etc., but the commitment Steven has to maintaining the integrity of the game. I've seriously struggled to gather a shred of desire to play new games as of late. MMORPGs/RPGs I've played in recent memory are disingenuous. They're too easy, P2W, incomplete, or lack compelling content among other things. The message from AAA game studios seems clear: our top priority is to turn a profit. This feels markedly different from Intrepid. I fully believe if Intrepid made just enough money to pay the staff, keep the lights on, and continue making more content, but not a dollar more, they absolutely would. Why? For the love of the game. Ironically, I think this approach will make them far more successful than any modern MMORPG developed by competing AAA studios. If AoC makes it out the door, I wouldn't be surprised if it became a pop culture icon much like WoW did in its glory days. Time will tell.

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I've read several posts about "balancing" casual vs hardcore players and whether AoC will be a worthwhile game to play without a huge time investment. I want to add my voice to this group of people. I really dislike the term "casual" because it implies apathy or an unwillingness to invest oneself in the game. If you didn't catch my drift earlier, that couldn't be further from the truth. I want this game to succeed so badly. For me, the difference between myself and a hardcore player boils down to a matter of free time.

Here's my reality. I'm in my 30s, have a wife, kids, and work full time. As much as I'd love to play a game 10+ hours a day, I simply can't. Even playing 2-3 hours a day a few times a week can be unrealistic. So, when I hear it will take roughly 45 days of playing 4-6 hours per day to reach max level... it's disheartening. That means if I don't abandon all my family responsibilities, I'll get there in 4-5 months. Oof. So much for alts.

I've read/heard many assurances that casual players will have a place in AoC, but we'll really only know after the game is released. I can see the responses already. "AoC isn't meant to be easy", "not everyone can be a winner", and so on. I couldn't agree more with those core tenants such as risk vs reward preached by Steven and others. However, I'm concerned about things going too far to the extreme. There's a real danger, and history would agree, in making things too exclusive and creating systems that compels the average Joe to make unhealthy RL tradeoffs in the pursuit of in-game rewards.

In an interview, Steven said something along the lines of, "People interested in something like AoC are a niche audience belonging to an 'aging' population". I disagree with that because (a) I don't consider myself among an aging population (although the neighborhood kids might disagree) and (b) there's something fundamentally compelling about the MMORPGs of an era gone by that draw certain people to them regardless of age. It's more about timing, isn't it? To say otherwise would be to claim the genre of MMORPGs will go to the grave with the "neck-bearded basement dwellers" of today. (As an aside, I will never grow a neck beard and despite having a basement, I sleep upstairs in the home I own).

I'd be curious to know if Stephen's claim about the aging demographic of MMORPGers is an assumption or if there is data to support that claim. After all, I believe the reason people are so committed to the vision of this game is because they want to recapture the feeling of awe and wonder they felt when playing a great MMORPG... particularly for the first time. I sense a sentiment within the AoC community that the only people who will enjoy AoC are those already familiar with the genre, and therefore the game should be heavily catered toward said demographic. If such sentiment exists, what a narrow vision! AoC feels like an attempt to restore the genre to its "purity", and I think a duty comes along with that to help those new to the genre experience that "first love" we old timers remember from days gone by. What I'd give to erase my memory of Skyrim just to experience it fresh again...

But think of it! Those of us in our 30s and 40s grew up at a time technology was just beginning to be sufficient enough to make MMOs possible. Our generation is perhaps the only one who truly get what makes an MMORPG so great. AoC is a manifestation of that. Don't let it get lost on a generation. I have no idea what sort of implications, if taken seriously, that might have on the game. I'm just saying, don't discount all the Fortnite players. Most of those kids have no idea they missed out on one of the greatest eras of games during the dawn of DSL.

Steven has said "our game's not going to be for everybody and that's okay". Absolutely agree. AoC won't be everyone's cup of tea. However, it's one thing to discover an awesome, fun, satisfying game, and another to realize you'll have to play the equivalent of a part-time job to remain competitive.

(An aside on competitiveness in the game: I keep hearing AoC isn't meant to be an us-vs-them game and players are rewarded for working together. I predict human nature will fight against this. Competition is fun. Not only that, but sieges, caravans, and the node system will inherently create situations that breed competition, intrigue, and backstabbing. This game will not be all rainbows and unicorns while frolicking around holding hands. Friendships will end. Metas (meti?) will matter. Groups will form for no other reason than to lay siege to a node and pull someone off their throne, literally and figuratively. As long as systems exist that allow players to compete, maintaining a competitive advantage will be a necessity to stay relevant. Yes, I think this is amazing.)

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Wow, this post is long-winded (oops, I wrote an essay!). Hopefully that won’t dissuade too many from reading this because I feel passionate about what I've said.

I'm not begging for handouts. I don't want the game to be easy. I don't want to take away from the success of others. But I do hope version 1.0 of AoC takes a holistic approach to gameplay. I want to be a dedicated player, totally immerse myself in Verra, and achieve a great many things... but not at the expense of being a dedicated husband, father, friend, and coworker. Actually, friends might be expendable... you get the point.

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Okeydoke

Dygz wrote: »

LMAO
GeorgeBlack pretty much only sees PvP-related features and ignores any feature that is for casuals.
Supporting casual players is core to Ashes design.

Well I don't follow GeorgeBlack's posting history very closely. If he's just straight up anti casual then that's his own deal. Being straight up anti casual just for the sake of being anti casual is essentially anti the game, anti Ashes of Creation, to me. He did lay out some of the core fundamentals of the game accurately though.

@mr n0body I'd rather see your idea of time capped progression servers just implemented as policy across all servers than to see the game split up like that with different server types. I'd rather neither though. I think Steven has been pretty clear that there will be no splitting up of the game, no different server types, as that would be bad for the game. I'd have to see if I could dig that up, but pretty sure he's indicated that.

And it would be bad for the game. People progress at different rates for various reasons, that's life. You're actually not a hero for retrieving the old man's fishing pole from the cave monster. Neither is the guy that did that quest 2 months before you. It's just a game. People worry way too much about what other people are doing and about their success. Envy, jealousy, human emotions. I've felt them, we all have.

But it's a game. I don't think the goal should be to mandate that everyone progress at the same rate because Timmy just can't handle seeing another player mounting a majestic mount in shiny armor too soon before him. There are single player games galore for that. I think the goal should be to make progression incremental and balanced in a way where the game remains reasonably fair for most of the parties involved. Not equality of outcome. But it, being a game, should encourage good competition, good sportsmanship.

In other words, (and kind of a nod to your idea) at some point the vertical progression should stop or heavily slow and horizontal progression should begin. So the 60-80 hour a week no lifers don't just continue to become infinitely stronger than everyone below them. But horizontally they still have things to work on that add utility, convenience, variation, wealth, comfort.

Dygz

Don't even have to join a guild - just play with the other people who are in town when you are.
You will learn where those characters' houses are.

One thing I like about New World that would be interesting if Ashes could also accomplish is that I just jump in and play. There is always something to do. The UI works well enough that it always feels like I'm just one or two things away from an Achievement. I'm just living in the world and doing stuff.
I spent way too much time last night just Fishing. Still haven't finished that quest, but I did hit several Fishing Achievements (and the nice thing about NW is that just advances overall character level).

If Ashes can recreate that feeling, casual or hardcore isn't really even much of a thing.
Just play and do the stuff you like in the time you have to play.

Fairtale

Okeydoke wrote: »

@mr n0body I'd rather see your idea of time capped progression servers just implemented as policy across all servers than to see the game split up like that with different server types. I'd rather neither though.
(...)
In other words, (and kind of a nod to your idea) at some point the vertical progression should stop or heavily slow and horizontal progression should begin. So the 60-80 hour a week no lifers don't just continue to become infinitely stronger than everyone below them. But horizontally they still have things to work on that add utility, convenience, variation, wealth, comfort.

Yeah, I can agree with what you said. And by no means do I want an MMO where everyone gets the same rewards. I just meant that I would rather see a separate server for casuals to feel satisfied, than having the hardcore server limited by them (which didn't work in other games).

And I do empathize with the casual gameplay lifestyle. And not because of what you said about wanting to be the best on the server out of envy, but rather because I know how it is to finally be able to log on after a week of work, and find that all your friends are maxed lvl while you are still lvl 10. It totally ruins the experience and makes players end up guild-hopping every 2 weeks into a newer guild to they have people to play with. Or, even worse, end up solo-lvling trying to catch up, getting farmed by PVP'ers alone in the jungle, while all friends are already doing raids.

However, when I read your response and tried to answer, I noticed that it might be WAY TOO SOON to be discussing these things since we don't know yet how most of these systems will work when the game comes out a few years from now. It would be interesting to revisit this at a later point.

Good points though.

Fairtale

Dygz wrote: »

If Ashes can recreate that feeling, casual or hardcore isn't really even much of a thing.
Just play and do the stuff you like in the time you have to play.

I totally agree with that. What I miss most in MMO's is this feeling of "just chill and do something cool". If AoC can make that rewarding, it could turn even me back into a casual, since those are the days of MMO that I seem to have had the most fun.

darksinge

Okeydoke wrote: »

All of that said, what the hardcore players grind for should be worthwhile. They should get meaningful advantages. Noticeable advantages. Perhaps even advantageous advantages.

I completely agree with you on that. I feel like those who've responded negatively to this discussion are assuming I want the game to be a casual experience, taking little effort to earn the greatest rewards. I thought I was pretty clear on my stance about that in my original post, which makes me think some jumped to conclusions, perhaps after seeing the word "casual" in the discussion title. Being a casual player doesn't necessarily equate to playing casually.

darksinge wrote: »

I really dislike the term "casual" because it implies apathy or an unwillingness to invest oneself in the game. If you didn't catch my drift earlier, that couldn't be further from the truth. I want this game to succeed so badly. For me, the difference between myself and a hardcore player boils down to a matter of free time.

I do wish they would tamp down the time required for leveling because I love playing alts, and a long leveling process makes that difficult.

The reception to this thread prompted be to do a lot more research. Between that and the incredible references from @Heruwolf and @Dygz (thanks guys!), my preconceived notions about the casual-friendliness of this game have been assuaged. I'm no longer concerned casual players will find it difficult to enjoy AoC.

Fairtale

darksinge wrote: »

I feel like those who've responded negatively to this discussion are assuming I want the game to be a casual experience

yes. I feel like MMO players have been disappointed by other games so many times that they 'fear' any new opinion, worrying that it might influence the devs in adapting the game for casual play. So most overreact. I have been feeling the same here in the forum, and I am not even asking for casual stuff, just asking questions and giving suggestions and I hear stuff like "if you don't like it fuck off to reddit" or "you shouldn't give ideas if you haven't read the whole forum and every comment first".

Not your fault dude, these players have been through a lot

darksinge wrote: »

I do wish they would tamp down the time required for leveling because I love playing alts, and a long leveling process makes that difficult.

let's hope they make the world fun, so no one feels the urge to skip the lvling to start enjoying the game

unless you want to do only raid content, of course. but I am pretty excited for world pvp, lvling up nodes, siege battles etc. I hope low lvl players will be able to enjoy those parts of the game as well.

CROW3

Based on everything I’ve seen/read, the lean of the game toward the hardcore experience still provides enough interesting content for the casual gamer to discover, as long as their expectations are realistic.

Dygz

I don't know that Steven would say that Ashes leans toward the hardcore experience.
Similar to how Ashes is a PvX game.

CROW3

Dygz wrote: »

I don't know that Steven would say that Ashes leans toward the hardcore experience.
Similar to how Ashes is a PvX game.

Hm… I was thinking more from a time investment, instead of say a hardcore raiding perspective.

Dygz

The same is true for casual/hardcore time as it is for casual/hardcore challenge.
Ashes supports both casual and hardcore play - both time and challenge.

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