By asserting that Intrepid don't plan to pay attention to what people are saying, you're discouraging others from making their voices heard
This is not an assertion that I have made.
If you think this is an assertion I made - which you clearly state here you do - then you have misunderstood what I said.
No Noaani, they did not misunderstand you. You are extremely consistent about this in every single thread. If people 'misunderstand you' it's because YOU suck at 'giving useable feedback'.
You say this as if you think Intrepid are looking for input here.
If Intrepid want input on a given topic, they will open a discussion on it. This is not the developer discussions - they are simply there to give people the feeling that they are being listened to. Also, on occasion, if a given topic gets enough attention, Intrepid sometimes do weigh in on it. They don't generally consider the opinions offered, they usually just weigh in with what their opinion on the matter is.
However, that isn't really the point of the forums. Intrepid don't need our input...
I've worked in production in two distinct industries. The only thing they have in common is the complete lack of value of customer/client suggestions, coupled with the fact that we still had to make it seem as if we valued that feedback.
As I have said perhaps a dozen or so times on these forums, 99% of feedback right now is actually worthless. This is because 99% of feedback is from people that haven't played the game, and 100% of feedback is from people that have not played the game as Intrepid intend the game to be.
Feedback saying "I don't like it when this happens" is arguably sometimes good. However, you can't say you don't like a thing until you are experiencing that thing in context - and right now, not even Intrepid have that full context.
That isn't to say there isn't some worthwhile feedback - there absolutely is (in the alpha section of the forums, not at all in the general section). It is simply saying that 99% of the feedback given to Intrepid is worthless.
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Literally useless - and that is when Intrepid ASKED for feedback (tip - they asked for people to contribute so they feel like they are contributing, not because they wanted feedback, or thought players could give insights that they themselves couldn't figure out).
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Once the game is in a near feature complete state, feedback such as "I don't like it when X happens" is useful. Intrepid can look to see if tit is a common thing that people don't like, and can pass that on to the appropriate developers to see if they should/can come up with a solution (you are not supposed to like some things).
However, feedback that is "I don't like it when X happens, you should do it this way instead" should simply be read by Intrepid as "I don't like it when X happens".
Put somewhat simpler, when the game is in a state where players are experiencing it somewhat close to how Intrepid intend it to be, letting Intrepid know what you do not like about it has some value. Telling them what you do like is kind of pointless, and telling them how you think things should be done is kind of arrogant.
There are streams and videos where Steven himself practically implores people to come on forums and give their ideas.
Yeah, and McDonalds values your input as well.
People like to think they are listened to, that their suggestions are heard and considered. As such, companies make people think this is the case, even when it is not.
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Thinking that there is any suggestion that we players could make that Steven couldn't get better from his own staff is mind-boggling to me.
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To me, feedback along the lines of "I don't like the white lines during sprint" is great. Saying what you do or do not like is potentially useful (note the word "potentially" in there).
It's when people that have never been involved in game development (or any profession, for that matter) think they know enough to tell a qualified, experienced professional in that field how to do things in their profession. That is when I personally take exception - though obviously everyone has their own take on things.
I think it's fine for players to give feedback but it needs to be from a end user customer perspective.
It is, but more than anything it is only really valuable when we are telling them we had an experience they were not expecting.
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Again though, since we aren't to know Intrepids expectations, providing feedback on our experience is all good. That is just where it needs to stop in terms of feedback to Intrepid. Us players can discuss ways we think would solve various issues with each other, but I would expect any competent developer would be able to look at any such thread and just laugh and laugh at what we come up with.
I could keep going on but that last one sums up YOUR 'philosophy' quite well. 'It's impossible for a player to give a suggestion that matters, they just want you to think they are listening to your suggestion.' In other words 'everyone else giving feedback outside of what I have experience with using constructively as a developer is useless.'
Some people know what they want and they have a fairly good idea of what they want leads to in game. This is useful data for a company who's goal is for people to have fun. You consistently say 'its useless to give this data'. Perhaps that is because you believe:
"You can either be good at that(collate user feedback), or you can be a good designer - you can't be both as the time spent improving in one will mean you can't improve in the other."
Grandserpent works in a creative field that requires 'both' set of skills. Perhaps yours just suck because no one ever challenged you to do otherwise.
'It's impossible for a player to give a suggestion that matters, they just want you to think they are listening to your suggestion.'
No, my thoughts are it is impossible for people that have not experienced constructing a thing to give someone with decades of experience in constructing that thing suggestions for how to better construct that thing. They can give feedback on what they do not like about the thing, but they can't offer suggestions on practical ways to make it.
Next time you see a builder building a house, go offer them a tip on how to do it better. I mean, you've lived in houses all your life, surely you know how to do it better than them.
If you have an electrician around, offer them some advice.
Tell Ford how to do a better job of making your cars engine, or a baker how to make bread better. Next time you or a loved one go in for an operation, be sure and tell the doctor how to perform it.
It is absolutely ridiculous that this is a topic of conversation. Of course professionals know what they are doing better than you do - that is why they are professionals.
If you think this is an assertion I made - which you clearly state here you do - then you have misunderstood what I said.
Disagree or not, you have misunderstood. Even after being told you misunderstood, you still think you didn't.
If you have to insist so strongly that everyone misunderstood, then it might be because you are not expressing yourself correctly.
I would go so far as to say that you are more worried about undermining other people's opinions than to actually contribute to this thread, and you have been doing this on many other threads as well.
It is ok to have an opinion. However, you shouldn't ground your opinion on arguments based on the idea that you are the only person that understands anything, and everyone else doesn't.
And you shouldn't become all sensitive when people react negatively to your opinions when you express them in that way.
In threads where you don't use this approach, your opinions come across much better.
I would go so far as to say that you are more worried about undermining other people's opinions than to actually contribute to this thread, and you have been doing this on many other threads as well.
I'm not undermining anything.
All I am doing here is pointing out truths. If someone feels that the truth is undermining their opinion or idea, then clearly their opinion or idea was built on unstable ground.
It would be very nice and useful to have a forum in which useful comments move up organically and where users don't have to spend time reading through spammy comments.
From my point of view, this thread has gone above and beyond in proving my point. I hope some others can empathize with this and that we can work together in building a community in which more voices are heard and where it is easier to see what ideas most players are defending.
Thanks for all the input guys, many good suggestions.
"If posts move around, this form of organic discussion is no longer possible."
-> sorted, not moved. sort posts by top votes. sort comments by top votes, sort posts by date, sort by top votes this month/year etc.
It would be very nice and useful to have a forum in which useful comments move up organically and where users don't have to spend time reading through spammy comments.
From my point of view, this thread has gone above and beyond in proving my point. I hope some others can empathize with this and that we can work together in building a community in which more voices are heard and where it is easier to see what ideas most players are defending..
Would love to hear some ideas on what forum structures the community has used in the past and how those solved these issues.
In the classic forum structure, I have always been a fan of vanilla forums. In more recent years Discourse seems to be fairing better, especially since it is so easy to attach files, images etc, though I still think they lose to Vanilla Forums in the broader sense.
Lithium would be amazing (the spotify forum in the example), but it is super overpriced. Have you guys seen other good approaches out there?
It would be very nice and useful to have a forum in which useful comments move up organically
Just sayin...
The best suggestion is as I suggested right at the start, be a part of the community. This means reading posts, not just skimming threads for the most upvoted posts.
This seems to be a common thing with you, you are wanting ways to throw in an opinion on things without actually being a part of the community - your insistence on a roadmap is a means to that same end as well.
The forums here are primarily to facilitate a community around the game, be a part of it, or don't be a part of it - your call.
This seems to be a common thing with you, you are wanting ways to throw in an opinion on things without actually being a part of the community.
That's not a nice thing to say. Everyone has to start somewhere, and being welcoming to new players should be our priority as a community. "your opinion doesn't matter because you are new and haven't read this 200 replies post" sounds a bit toxic, or at least not very welcoming and expecting a bit too much of players. Did you read every post and every comment from the forum?
A good idea can come from any player, it is the amount of positive or negative feedback the idea receives that should determine how good it is, and not how long the user has been a part of the community.
And I didn't ask for the roadmap, that was not my post. I only commented agreeing with it. The community answered where to find it, and I learned.
Honestly, what's wrong with that? Try to be a bit more welcoming to new players dude, it is an MMO after all, and we should make an effort into creating a friendly, fun and positive community, which in turn will attract even more players that contribute to the game. If we derail this in negativity, we will start attracting the wrong type of player IMO.
If you don't like the roadmap (or "release schedule" doesn't matter what it is called I found what I needed there), don't take it out on other users. Create a thread, get support, take it to the devs and ask them to unpublish it from the wiki. Don't complain to me. I am not part of the dev team.
This means reading posts, not just skimming threads for the most upvoted posts.
players read posts, devs don't have time to read everything, so often they will skim things. I think having a "summary" for them would help us.
The forums are not here for us to have a dialogue with Intrepid, they are there for us to have a dialogue with each other.
Did you read every post and every comment from the forum?
I do in the threads I take an interest in.
A good idea can come from any player, it is the amount of positive or negative feedback the idea receives that should determine how good it is, and not how long the user has been a part of the community.
Actually, neither of these are particularly good metrics for determining if an idea is good. One need look no further than the issues behind naming the HMS Sir David Attenborough for absolute proof that the majority can't be trusted with anything.
Honestly, what's wrong with that? Try to be a bit more welcoming to new players dude, it is an MMO after all, and we should make an effort into creating a friendly, fun and positive community, which in turn will attract even more players that contribute to the game. If we derail this in negativity, we will start attracting the wrong type of player IMO.
I'm not sure if you know what Ashes is about.
It is a game where players can literally kill each other and take their stuff, where I can come along and not only destroy your house, but destroy the city where all of your friends live as well. I can take the supply chain you have created in order to make some in game coin and turn it up on it's head.
Ashes is already going to attract the wrong type of player - that is not something a sudden dose of reality on the forums is going to alter in either direction.
Don't complain to me. I am not part of the dev team.
I have not complained to you.
You came to these forums clearly not understanding what a forum (or specifically this forum) is for. You have wanted to turn it in to a place where individual ideas can be up-voted in some sort of tactic to try and wrestle Intrepid in to having to implement ideas that the community thinks are popular - and where people can just check in every few months to see if Intrepid are "om schedule" with their development.
My posting in reply to you has been to attempt to point out to you that what you think is the purpose of these forums is not actually the purpose of these forums. These forums are here so that there can be a community - so that us perspective players can all talk about the game, and about other games and how they could potentially relate to Ashes.
If you jump in to a community (any community) that has been active for near five years and instantly start suggesting it needs to be changed, expect pushback.
Actually, neither of these are particularly good metrics for determining if an idea is good. One need look no further than the issues behind naming the HMS Sir David Attenborough for absolute proof that the majority can't be trusted with anything.
This has nothing to do with the subject. You are just making up stuff because you didn't like the idea. This is not a democracy, we arent voting to force devs to implement anything, they will decide that themselves. I already explained what would be the advantage, and "uprising of the masses" was not part of it.
It is a game where players can literally kill each other and take their stuff, where I can come along and not only destroy your house, but destroy the city where all of your friends live as well. I can take the supply chain you have created in order to make some in game coin and turn it up on it's head.
are you justifying toxic behavior towards new players with "in the game, I can kill you and destroy your house"? Seriously?
You keep pulling new weird stuff into the conversation for no other reason than being toxic to new players. This is ridiculous.
Ashes is already going to attract the wrong type of player - that is not something a sudden dose of reality on the forums is going to alter in either direction.
no, no it won't. the vast majority of players will not act like you are acting right now. The vast majority of people are decent and learn to live in a community like normal people. Stop acting like you are part of the company. You are a player like everyone else here. Deal with it.
You have wanted to turn it in to a place where individual ideas can be up-voted in some sort of tactic to try and wrestle Intrepid in to having to implement ideas that the community thinks are popular
oh jeez, you found out my evil plan. yes I am here to destroy this MMO. mua-haha-haha-ha-ha
My posting in reply to you has been to attempt to point out to you that what you think is the purpose of these forums is not actually the purpose of these forums. These forums are here so that there can be a community - so that us perspective players can all talk about the game, and about other games and how they could potentially relate to Ashes.
Didn't know you were the forum manager. Sorry are you part of the AoC team? Only your opinion on how the forum should work matters? Nice sense of community there bro, real mature.
If you jump in to a community (any community) that has been active for near five years and instantly start suggesting it needs to be changed, expect pushback.
You are just complaining because you don't want anyone else's opinion, just yours. The forum is open to everyone, and the dev's themselves point out how much they want and value player feedback. Deal with it.
Any adult should be mature enough to have conversations with diverging opinions.
If you have an opinion, create a thread and talk about it, get others to support it. You can give your opinion, just like everybody else. Just don't get cranky every time someone doesn't agree with you. You aren't better than anyone else in here.
New players will continue coming, new ideas will continue to be posted and there is nothing you can do about it.
If you are acting like this in the forum, I can't wait to see your reaction when I destroy your node.
You think it's a good idea to give people a simple button to press mindlessly that has the ability to shape a discussion, I pointed you to an example of a situation where giving people a simple button to press mindlessly results in actual stupid outcomes.
I assume you are aware that this isn't the only such case.
At the very least, people should understand the entire topic before providing an opinion. Like buttons on Reddit and the like are often just pressed after reading the first 7 or 8 words, and in many cases, people just see that something has a lot of posts, or has a gold or what ever, and throw in another like because they think that is the thing to do.
It is not a good system, it is not a good way to get solid ideas noticed. If you want to get solid ideas noticed, post about them, have people point flaws in your idea, work with those people to address those flaws and end up at the other end wit ha really solid idea that stands scrutiny. This is something you and I have even started in another thread.
If your idea can't hold up to the first sign of a disagreement, then the issue is with that idea, not with the disagreement.
the dev's themselves point out how much they want and value player feedback. Deal with it.
Yeah, and in 5 years, three things have changed because of it - two of which were likely to change anyway. The only actual thing to come from "player feedback" is Intrepid understanding that we don't want daily tasks of any description.
You can keep listening to them telling you they value your input all you want - I am looking at their actions. Their actions are that they are making the game that Steven has said he wants to make, and are consistent with their comments from very early on, before Steven even had a PR/CS/community team (he said he is paying for Ashes to be made, he is having it made how he wants, he doesn't care if people complain about it, but we are welcome to come along for the ride).
Again, if you want to listen to the PR spin, have at it.
Any adult should be mature enough to have conversations with diverging opinions.
I was under the impression that this is what we were doing. You want the forums changed from what they are in to something else, I don't.
This is a fairly civil conversation, by internet standards, I'm not sure why you are complaining about the conversation itself. It's this kind of thing that people do when they realize they have no valid points left to argue - but I am sure if you got the that point, rather than attacking the conversation itself, I'm sure you would be mature enough to just admit that your idea may have been misplaced (not even a bad idea, just misplaced).
the best thing about this forum structure is that the more you try to troll my post, the more people see the ideas, the more replies I get, and better for me.
Just keep the troll messages coming, I have all week.
the best thing about this forum structure is that the more you try to troll my post, the more people see the ideas, the more replies I get, and better for me.
Just keep the troll messages coming, I have all week.
That is a factor of this structure, yes.
It isn't the best thing though.
Good luck trying to maintain a discussion like we have been having on a setup like Reddit.
Again, as I said earlier in this thread, this thread itself is an example of why the status quo should be maintained in this case. You may not have enjoyed the discussion, but it is a discussion all the same - which is the point.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We definitely don't have a dialogue with the devs in these forums - so it's not the purpose.
The devs respond less than 1% of the time.
Comments
No Noaani, they did not misunderstand you. You are extremely consistent about this in every single thread. If people 'misunderstand you' it's because YOU suck at 'giving useable feedback'.
This thread
Dev Discussion #32 Thread
Feedback Philosophy Thread
I could keep going on but that last one sums up YOUR 'philosophy' quite well. 'It's impossible for a player to give a suggestion that matters, they just want you to think they are listening to your suggestion.' In other words 'everyone else giving feedback outside of what I have experience with using constructively as a developer is useless.'
Some people know what they want and they have a fairly good idea of what they want leads to in game. This is useful data for a company who's goal is for people to have fun. You consistently say 'its useless to give this data'. Perhaps that is because you believe:
"You can either be good at that(collate user feedback), or you can be a good designer - you can't be both as the time spent improving in one will mean you can't improve in the other."
Grandserpent works in a creative field that requires 'both' set of skills. Perhaps yours just suck because no one ever challenged you to do otherwise.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Next time you see a builder building a house, go offer them a tip on how to do it better. I mean, you've lived in houses all your life, surely you know how to do it better than them.
If you have an electrician around, offer them some advice.
Tell Ford how to do a better job of making your cars engine, or a baker how to make bread better. Next time you or a loved one go in for an operation, be sure and tell the doctor how to perform it.
It is absolutely ridiculous that this is a topic of conversation. Of course professionals know what they are doing better than you do - that is why they are professionals.
Arguing the opposite is arrogance at it's finest.
I would go so far as to say that you are more worried about undermining other people's opinions than to actually contribute to this thread, and you have been doing this on many other threads as well.
It is ok to have an opinion. However, you shouldn't ground your opinion on arguments based on the idea that you are the only person that understands anything, and everyone else doesn't.
And you shouldn't become all sensitive when people react negatively to your opinions when you express them in that way.
In threads where you don't use this approach, your opinions come across much better.
All I am doing here is pointing out truths. If someone feels that the truth is undermining their opinion or idea, then clearly their opinion or idea was built on unstable ground.
From my point of view, this thread has gone above and beyond in proving my point. I hope some others can empathize with this and that we can work together in building a community in which more voices are heard and where it is easier to see what ideas most players are defending.
Thanks for all the input guys, many good suggestions.
There are ideas in this thread that have been pulled from many others, and discussions often happen across different threads.
If posts move around, this form of organic discussion is no longer possible.
-> sorted, not moved. sort posts by top votes. sort comments by top votes, sort posts by date, sort by top votes this month/year etc.
Would love to hear some ideas on what forum structures the community has used in the past and how those solved these issues.
In the classic forum structure, I have always been a fan of vanilla forums. In more recent years Discourse seems to be fairing better, especially since it is so easy to attach files, images etc, though I still think they lose to Vanilla Forums in the broader sense.
Lithium would be amazing (the spotify forum in the example), but it is super overpriced. Have you guys seen other good approaches out there?
The best suggestion is as I suggested right at the start, be a part of the community. This means reading posts, not just skimming threads for the most upvoted posts.
This seems to be a common thing with you, you are wanting ways to throw in an opinion on things without actually being a part of the community - your insistence on a roadmap is a means to that same end as well.
The forums here are primarily to facilitate a community around the game, be a part of it, or don't be a part of it - your call.
That's not a nice thing to say. Everyone has to start somewhere, and being welcoming to new players should be our priority as a community. "your opinion doesn't matter because you are new and haven't read this 200 replies post" sounds a bit toxic, or at least not very welcoming and expecting a bit too much of players. Did you read every post and every comment from the forum?
A good idea can come from any player, it is the amount of positive or negative feedback the idea receives that should determine how good it is, and not how long the user has been a part of the community.
And I didn't ask for the roadmap, that was not my post. I only commented agreeing with it. The community answered where to find it, and I learned.
Honestly, what's wrong with that? Try to be a bit more welcoming to new players dude, it is an MMO after all, and we should make an effort into creating a friendly, fun and positive community, which in turn will attract even more players that contribute to the game. If we derail this in negativity, we will start attracting the wrong type of player IMO.
If you don't like the roadmap (or "release schedule" doesn't matter what it is called I found what I needed there), don't take it out on other users. Create a thread, get support, take it to the devs and ask them to unpublish it from the wiki. Don't complain to me. I am not part of the dev team.
I'm not sure if you know what Ashes is about.
It is a game where players can literally kill each other and take their stuff, where I can come along and not only destroy your house, but destroy the city where all of your friends live as well. I can take the supply chain you have created in order to make some in game coin and turn it up on it's head.
Ashes is already going to attract the wrong type of player - that is not something a sudden dose of reality on the forums is going to alter in either direction.
I have not complained to you.
You came to these forums clearly not understanding what a forum (or specifically this forum) is for. You have wanted to turn it in to a place where individual ideas can be up-voted in some sort of tactic to try and wrestle Intrepid in to having to implement ideas that the community thinks are popular - and where people can just check in every few months to see if Intrepid are "om schedule" with their development.
My posting in reply to you has been to attempt to point out to you that what you think is the purpose of these forums is not actually the purpose of these forums. These forums are here so that there can be a community - so that us perspective players can all talk about the game, and about other games and how they could potentially relate to Ashes.
If you jump in to a community (any community) that has been active for near five years and instantly start suggesting it needs to be changed, expect pushback.
r/AshesofCreation
Why do we need two subreddits?
Really 100% REALLY sure?
Or are you just inventing bullshit because you don't want other people's opinions on the forum?
Well then I don't need to keep answering the same questions over and over here. I already answered all this.
This has nothing to do with the subject. You are just making up stuff because you didn't like the idea. This is not a democracy, we arent voting to force devs to implement anything, they will decide that themselves. I already explained what would be the advantage, and "uprising of the masses" was not part of it.
are you justifying toxic behavior towards new players with "in the game, I can kill you and destroy your house"? Seriously?
You keep pulling new weird stuff into the conversation for no other reason than being toxic to new players. This is ridiculous.
no, no it won't. the vast majority of players will not act like you are acting right now. The vast majority of people are decent and learn to live in a community like normal people. Stop acting like you are part of the company. You are a player like everyone else here. Deal with it.
oh jeez, you found out my evil plan. yes I am here to destroy this MMO. mua-haha-haha-ha-ha
Didn't know you were the forum manager. Sorry are you part of the AoC team? Only your opinion on how the forum should work matters? Nice sense of community there bro, real mature.
You are just complaining because you don't want anyone else's opinion, just yours. The forum is open to everyone, and the dev's themselves point out how much they want and value player feedback. Deal with it.
Any adult should be mature enough to have conversations with diverging opinions.
If you have an opinion, create a thread and talk about it, get others to support it. You can give your opinion, just like everybody else. Just don't get cranky every time someone doesn't agree with you. You aren't better than anyone else in here.
New players will continue coming, new ideas will continue to be posted and there is nothing you can do about it.
If you are acting like this in the forum, I can't wait to see your reaction when I destroy your node.
Deal with it, or go play Mario.
You think it's a good idea to give people a simple button to press mindlessly that has the ability to shape a discussion, I pointed you to an example of a situation where giving people a simple button to press mindlessly results in actual stupid outcomes.
I assume you are aware that this isn't the only such case.
At the very least, people should understand the entire topic before providing an opinion. Like buttons on Reddit and the like are often just pressed after reading the first 7 or 8 words, and in many cases, people just see that something has a lot of posts, or has a gold or what ever, and throw in another like because they think that is the thing to do.
It is not a good system, it is not a good way to get solid ideas noticed. If you want to get solid ideas noticed, post about them, have people point flaws in your idea, work with those people to address those flaws and end up at the other end wit ha really solid idea that stands scrutiny. This is something you and I have even started in another thread.
If your idea can't hold up to the first sign of a disagreement, then the issue is with that idea, not with the disagreement. Yeah, and in 5 years, three things have changed because of it - two of which were likely to change anyway. The only actual thing to come from "player feedback" is Intrepid understanding that we don't want daily tasks of any description.
You can keep listening to them telling you they value your input all you want - I am looking at their actions. Their actions are that they are making the game that Steven has said he wants to make, and are consistent with their comments from very early on, before Steven even had a PR/CS/community team (he said he is paying for Ashes to be made, he is having it made how he wants, he doesn't care if people complain about it, but we are welcome to come along for the ride).
Again, if you want to listen to the PR spin, have at it. I was under the impression that this is what we were doing. You want the forums changed from what they are in to something else, I don't.
This is a fairly civil conversation, by internet standards, I'm not sure why you are complaining about the conversation itself. It's this kind of thing that people do when they realize they have no valid points left to argue - but I am sure if you got the that point, rather than attacking the conversation itself, I'm sure you would be mature enough to just admit that your idea may have been misplaced (not even a bad idea, just misplaced).
Just keep the troll messages coming, I have all week.
That is a factor of this structure, yes.
It isn't the best thing though.
Good luck trying to maintain a discussion like we have been having on a setup like Reddit.
Again, as I said earlier in this thread, this thread itself is an example of why the status quo should be maintained in this case. You may not have enjoyed the discussion, but it is a discussion all the same - which is the point.
The devs respond less than 1% of the time.