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Guild Gathering #6 - Internal Conflict

LieutenantToastLieutenantToast Moderator, Staff
edited August 16 in General Discussion
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Glorious Ashes community - we're excited to continue our new series called Guild Gatherings! Guild Gathering topics are a "reverse Q&A" similar to our Dev Discussions, where we ask you about your thoughts on everything related to guilds.

Our team has compiled a list of questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding guild tools, gameplay, your previous experiences, and more. Join in on our Guild Gatherings and share how your gaming family is special to you!


Guild Gathering #6 - Internal Conflict
What makes a “problematic” member for your guild, and how do you handle situations as they arise? What expectations do you set up front, and what are the consequences for failing to meet them?

Keep an eye out for our next Guild Gathering topic regarding ideal members!


Hi again friends! After going through all the feedback you posted on how you deal with internal conflict your guild may face, check out some of the top notes you shared with us below:
  • Many shared that they communicate guild rules and consequences as a condition for joining, including escalating actions and a “trial” process
  • Others highlighted characteristics that made for a “problematic member” - from trolls to ninja looters to drama llamas and more
  • A few noted that they preferred more “PvP-oriented” solutions to guild issues as they arose
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Comments

  • FrogFrog Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Sacrifice them so we may please the others! And receive their blessings
  • purge the corrupted protect the green
  • Only experience is with 18+ guilds.. Discuss with the admins of the guild. If there's an obvious antagonist remove them, if it is 2 or more members equally involved have them settle it away from guild chat. If they can not settle things on their own or keep interfering with the rest of the guild members, remove them both/all.

    Rank within the guild should not matter in these situations, but of course that is just my opinion.
  • If it's a minor issue a small talk should resolve most problems. But if deliquent tends to delibarately ruin fun for everyone else then removing them should be the only solution.
  • Lord MathisLord Mathis Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I’ve always viewed guilds like work environments. Many of the same issues I see in a workplace I see in a guild. And at the end of the day you all have a job to do and that job is not to stand in the fire on raid night.

    The solutions mentioned so far seem to be exactly what I would expect a manager to do when an employee is causing trouble.
  • SorianLoreSorianLore Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 26
    What makes a problematic member for our guild are players who:
    • Take game related things too seriously.
    • Take respecting each other as human beings not very seriously.
    • Don't get on voice comms with folks, esp when they are dealing with challenges.

    For those who are able to have mature discussions about things and adapt their behaviors accordingly, then we have no problems, for those who can't, we part ways with.

    We outline our operating style, our culture, and set expectations upfront with folks when they apply to join. The consequences of failing expectations is parting ways as amicably as possible. but the result regardless is their no longer being a member of our guild.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member

    What makes a “problematic” member for your guild?

    - consistently start petty fights with other members
    - guild resource moocher / thief
    - antagonistic toward newer, beginning, or lower level/geared members
    - starts crap with other guilds without working with guild leadership
    - doesn't follow guild loot / raid / instance rules
    - shows consistent disregard for commonsense social norms (aka we just don't like you)

    and how do you handle situations as they arise?

    the spectrum runs from 'observe and see if it's self-correcting' to 'direct discussion' to 'official warning' to 'kicked. banned. done.'

    What expectations do you set up front, and what are the consequences for failing to meet them?

    all the rules are documented up front, along with the consequences for breaking those agreements. It's not that hard, but as a leader you need to be direct, clear, and consistent.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.jpg
  • As a Guildmaster for about 16 years now, this is quite common. Early on I would just ban them, kick them, and excommunicate them on a whim but that turned out to be a bit rash and unconventional leading to being short-staffed. Unfortunately, the best course of action is the social approach to keep as many players in the same team as possible for as long as possible to maintain constant growth towards your guilds goals. As the GM it's your job to be the middle ground in every situation not involving you directly, listen to both sides, and determine who's right and who's wrong while never taking a side yourself but lots of times it's never that simple; could be someone with a grudge against another member or members, someone with poor social skills (whether that being a lack of or overabundance of ie, annoying kids), problems involving women (too vulgar to go into detail), and so on. Problems like these are most likely never going to find a middle ground but it's usually best to not take any action at all and let things play out with the exceptions being players who are disruptive to the progress of the guild itself. Once a player becomes a hindrance to others, that is when you should remove them before you end up losing players with actual value.

    There are of course other instances of why someone should be kicked for example breaking the guild rules, not following orders, spying for other guilds, and people there just to troll (not including generally toxic individuals since they can usually be reasoned with). These instances are usually noticeable almost immediately with enough experience and can usually be stopped before they happen so long as you pay attention. You must be ever vigilant over every aspect of your guild and have officers trusted enough to help you point out these red flags.

    A rookie mistake is trusting your officers to make these calls for you and kick whoever they deem unnecessary which almost always leads to infighting and drama down the road- or worst of all, a mass purge of your members while you're offline. The safest and most secure option is to only allow yourself to have the power to remove players. This leads to your officers telling you more information of your guild and go into greater detail of why they need someone out. Your officers should be your eyes and your council only, the moment they get power is the moment someone else is going to have a problem with that.

    In summary; Everyone is a necessary piece on the chessboard with their own purpose, whether that be as a future sacrifice or a pivotal role so don't throw your pieces away if you can avoid it and don't let anyone else make your moves for you.
    Over 2 decades of large scale strategic MMO world domination experience.
    Discord ID: Care#4472
  • PagemasterPagemaster Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited July 26
    What makes a problematic member in the guild?

    Well, this is a tough one to answer, guild members can become upset and start acting out for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, everyone has feelings and sometimes feelings get hurt. Sometimes miscommunication happens and people become upset.
    To name a few problems:
    - Consistently late to Guild events
    - Didn't get the loot they thought they should get
    - The person is straight up rude
    - Min/Maxxer started a spreadsheet of numbers and is now pushing their theorycrafting unto others. (Dps,hps,etc)
    - Being petty
    - Ninja Looting items
    - Abusing mechanics/systems
    - Many, Many other problems

    How does the Guild handle situations as they arise?

    In my Guild, There's clear-cut rules and expectations. Also, we interact with community members before they will ever transition to a Guild Member, but people can still have issues. So, there is a Council, the Council deliberates and votes, then justice is served.

    What expectations does the Guild set up front?

    As the Guild Leader and anyone who is in higher power in the guild. It's our duty to explain the full process of the Guild or atleast have somewhere that explains these processes and rules.
    The Guild should have clear-cut rules that are easily accessible to everyone and it's up to the Guild to make sure people stay within those lines. A Guild that doesn't take action, will become complacent.

    What are the consequences for failing to meet expectations?

    It depends of the severity of the action.

    If someone in the core raid group is having issues with mechanics, we will chat with them, maybe they're having a bad day. A person a month into raiding is still consistently having issues with mechanics, we might swap their spot with another potential raider to see if it remedies the situation.

    There will be over 100 ranks/titles to achieve in the Guild (If Ashes doesn't allow all these ranks/titles discord will), if someone fails to uphold their rank/title they will be demoted.

    For more severe issues, a strike system, counsel them, then reprimand.

    There are some rules, that if broken, you will immediately be excommunicated, banned and put on a blacklist.

    First time doing one of these, as a Guild Leader I felt I should weigh in, I'm also on my phone, please bare with me.
    There's alot of things that can go wrong, but there's alot of things that can go right.
    These examples just scratch the surface.
  • mr n0bodymr n0body Member
    edited July 28
    .
  • CallinorCallinor Member
    We used to have a council in my old guild. someone would bring issues to us with any evidence. if we got evidence ourselves it was usually screen shots of chats. We would discuss it as a group and majority decision way usually the outcome of "have they done wrong" and then what punishment they should receive. then it was usually up to me to deliver the news, I'm good at being "the bad guy" in situations like this. After they were taken care of we would then address the rest of the guild and let them know what happened and why (with as much or little detail as needed) and then we would work on community relations to ensure we could all move forward.
  • TyresiasTyresias Member
    Guild Gathering #6 - Internal Conflict
    What makes a “problematic” member for your guild, and how do you handle situations as they arise? What expectations do you set up front, and what are the consequences for failing to meet them?

    First, I want to thank you and praise you for taking an active interest in sustainable community development. I appreciate this forum and desire of the Dev team to ask for input. Proactively investing in communities' ability to maintain themselves is one of the most important things you can do for the overall health of the game. I am extremely vocal about my passion for this type of moderation training and why I believe it will be imperative to maintain communities of the future.

    Healthy communities = healthy game.

    I understand that most community leaders are not mental health professionals. However, the problem lies in that I believe most “problem” guild members are often actually suffering from greater mental health needs/concerns. YES - FACT - EVEN TROLLS ARE DEALING WITH SOMETHING. ;) Keeping both of these things in mind I have cultivated a more proactive approach to mental health and moderation training with our community leaders - instead of a retroactive one. Mental health and fitness are at the core of our leadership training, education and service model.

    At Ruin Gaming we are a home for the military and those with disabilities. We strive to be as inclusive as possible. I believe that an informed policy can make all the difference when addressing “problem” members. Empathy and Compassion are keys to mental fitness, both individually and collectively, especially in a crisis. Communities have immune systems just like we do. When the community can lean on a transparent and well informed policy they are more likely to report issues in the moment. When community leaders follow through on a commitment to compassion and consistency we see less overall attrition and more healing. Our ability to respond collectively, in real time, matters.

    When members feel safe enough to report issues we are able to maintain a more proactive approach without ostracizing (ignites fight or flight response) those in need. Oftentimes that community support and integration process is enough to make a difference for someone who was deemed a “problem” and is actually struggling. This cycle builds trust and aims to break more toxic gaming culture cycles of exclusion. Communication is crucial. We are incredibly proud and honored to have so many more women bravely leading than ever before because of this overall cycle of transparency and trust.

    Taking a more proactive approach to “problems” has ultimately meant that we are seeing less of the “problems” themselves. Our personal and collective resilience has improved because our approach to it has shifted. We have been able to transform traditionally negative cultural (HR) feedback loops into actual solutions to the “problem” without being mental health professionals.

    If members are struggling they need community support. Period. As communities we can and should do more to support those that are in need. With a review from a group of peers on the issues members are given mindful moments to reflect and seek professional help if it is needed. We have a list of mental health information and resources embedded in our discord for the general public as well.

    Ultimately, we are responsible for the culture we create. How we look at and treat “problem” members is part of the problem. We need to teach and practice empathy. Obviously laying out rules for members is important but I believe this type of moderation training aims to solve the issues of retention in a much more compassionate way.

    Through education, mentorship and mediation we are directly addressing its more traumatic root cause and turning it into a net positive that then sends healing ripples like waves through the greater collective consciousness. Lastly, I believe that less emphasis is needed on an arbitrary hierarchy of authority figures when it is a team of well trained people you actually play with regularly and a peer reviewed policy you believe in.

    Ruin Gaming Moderation Training:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ujYhE-gDIR7u6NDWAmIEoFxEVdUgSMna-VAp4Rk2Vk8/edit#

    Shareable Mental Health Information and Resources:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/18axPs0l2ufxI9W4-09vLZKd3bY5MMTv-DrEmZJYujL0/edit

    Thank you for reading!
  • FrissFriss Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Hi,
    Rules from the very beginning that you STICK to. Are important.
    However, case by case is equally important. Every member is valued the same.

    THAT BEING SAID: there are absolute negative people that don't work well FOR the group. There are just some people that come into a voice chat and completely suck out the energy.
    Now that's a strong statement, I know. If that person is negatively impacting the group, speak to them. If things don't change you'll have to make a change. It can be anything from you cannot come to raids, to you have to leave the guild and are no longer allowed in voice chat.

    One thing we've learned over the years if you cannot please everyone. Important is a group of mature level headed leaders that can make those decisions.

    Some people cannot help their social interactions and are socially awkward. That's fine. As I said, case by case.

    Important is to see the goal of the group. Coming back to setting rules from the very beginning. if you're just a guild to hang out, it's dif than a hardcore pvp/raiding group.

    - Personally. I would pull the person aside and exhaust every option to keep them as much of a member of the group as possible, while still enforcing and sticking to the rules.

    The ideal situation is: You have a group where everyone gets along great and can handle problems between themselves by talking it out, or other members diffuse situations.
    Don't forget it's a game..... A person becomes "problematic" when they are taking away the fun from other members. :)

    In Conclusion: Set rules that everyone follows. Show members how to handle a situation so they can support each other. Remember, everyone is different. Respect is a big thing. And if it's not fun, and you aren't having fun, why are you even doing it?

    Anyways, I guess it's all opinion based do whatever you want :)
  • NoelzyNoelzy Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    how i solved the issue of problem members
    /gkick
  • botbot Member
    A problematic guild member is anyone that consistently is involved in drama that goes beyond basic competitiveness within the game, anyone who takes their harassment of another too far, and any type of cheating/exploiting. If I'm the sole decision maker I would just kick them after a warning to stop. Giving people more than one warning for serious stuff is unnecessary. The expectations should always be upfront that the point of the game and guild is to have fun and get along. If it's just petty drama then it's something that can be moved past. Anything serious is going to be taken seriously and whoever is the troublesome person will be kicked quickly. Having someone toxic to the guild culture will result in long term instability or others leaving.
  • tankenkatankenka Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited July 29
    "Problematic Guild Members"

    This is a very broad topic.

    The over-simplified version is: "A problematic guild member causes strife where it would generally not occur." However, that doesn't account for people who aren't good at communicating, or people who have anxiety reading too much into what is typed or said. Nor does it account for second(etc) language use, cultural misunderstandings, and so on and so forth.

    So, as others have noted, it sometimes has to assessed case-by-case. Just like we don't all like everyone we meet or work with or go to school with, we still learn to get along and work together (for the most part).

    In that light, the "problematic" people in a guild would represent the same people who would be problematic in real life (online or offline).

    How it's handled?

    This depends on the size of the guild and the type of conflict, and the seriousness.

    Generally, the first step starts at prevention (clearly stated rules and guidelines with equally clear outcomes for breaking them).

    Definitely a conversation where it's warranted - people do make mistakes and bringing down the hammer right away sometimes does more harm than good.

    In the significant majority of cases, a simple word of warning from a guild moderator will be sufficient. Or just a private message to both parties to cool their heels is plenty enough. It is important to make an effort to calm a situation (if it's necessary) gently and fairly.

    In slightly more volatile cases, first an attempt to settle the dust and have people on an even field will be taken, and the players will be monitored. Both will be asked to turn on chat logging if they haven't already (which I hope will be available in the game). They will be warned not to PM each other for the time being. It will be firmly mediated, with clear and written information as to why certain actions are being taken and what is expected of them, and a reference to the guild guidelines and rules.

    In 99% of cases, the above set of approaches are far more than enough. In all my decades gaming, I have only had to employ (or have witnessed employed) the below on a very few occasions. These have almost universally been for some pretty ugly stuff.

    In repeated offences where someone clearly isn't learning, and demotion and restrictions (in guild) aren't working, and they continue to cause issues and a toxic environment, then they will be given a three-strike warning before they are kicked (and will appear on the guild moderator's - on-site no reentry list with information).

    The caveat here will be collective guild vote can offer an additional chance, or counter a kick (which the leader and moderators can veto if someone is too toxic and clearly doesn't uphold the guild values and doesn't respect the guild community). In the event where a kick is countered, the player will be demoted to a final-warning role (for a set period of time) and have restrictions placed on them in-guild. Once they have shown that they can play nice, they will be re-elevated, but they will get only one warning in the future, and no vote against kick, and no demotion cooldown offered a second time.

    In the event of a serious and deliberate (and evidenced) breach of not only the guild rules and AoC rules, the evidence will be compiled and forwarded to AoC moderators. They will be summarily be removed from the guild. Affiliated guild leaders will be notified privately. Their character name will be listed on the site both in the private moderator no reentry list AND the member area as removed for breaching X rules (which will be listed). However, no personal information will be provided, nor precisely which part of the rules were broken.
    Give me a pencil, and I'll draw the world.
    Give me words, and I will illustrate the universe.
    >>>D.A.Kelorii
  • edited August 1
    when there is someone that annoys other guild members:
    *take a look if you see it yourself, if so talk to that person that get bullied (maybe there are screenshots or other mambers)
    *if its not that bad talk with other guildstaf about it
    *talk with the bullie about it (sometimes they are not aware of)
    *if its a serious situation as a leader i have to interfere
    *when its really bad : tell them whats going on and kick them out

    to awaire problems there are rules ofcourse because i am german ;)
    if there is someting happening they should talk about by them self - if thats not working get help by guildstaf as a neutral person
    a MMO verteran know bad situations and tell rules before starting something new (special loot share or something like that)
  • KesarakkKesarakk Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    My guild uses a Triad System when dealing with problematic players. We have a presiding officer (Typically the GM due to our size) and two other selected players (One for and One against). We look at all the aspects of a member that we have an issue with: Their age, their contributions, their time in the guild, and of course the problems that we are having. We have learned over the years that age is an important factor. Sometimes this player is just a kid (20 or younger) and other times its a full-grown adult. If it's a kid, we try to do a one-on-one with them to discuss the decisions made by the Triad so they don't feel like they are being ganged up on. If they are a full-grown adult, we invite them into a group discussion with the entire Triad to work out any issues. Our results are mixed but the issues get resolved and our members find the system fair. Unless a player does something against basic rules (Hate, Griefing, Theft, etc.) we work with them. If they end up being a repeat offender the warnings will turn into a gkick.
  • I have run many guilds over the years (mostly against my will by being appointed to the position). I have found that it definitely depends on the situation. The larger the guilds are the more frequent problems arise. I find that I tend to delegate most problems to someone else dealing with it or if its two equal ranking officers I try to let them try to sort it out without stepping in if they can act as adults. However, that is not always the case, some people cannot act appropriate and some people love drama, live for it, stir it up on every turn and must be removed. Unfortunately banning isn’t always possible and many find ways back into the ranks sneaking their ways back in on alts, forever causing problems.

    Ban from guild functions should exist, we should be able to ban someone’s entire account (legacy or whatever you want to name it) from a guild. Currently in SWTOR this process exposes a players legacy and I believe their system does more harm than good because players trying to play alts to avoid harassment also get hurt because of their process exposing legacy names. A better system should be in place for this game allowing players to incognito while guilds still having the function to completely blacklist someone’s entire account.

    An example of this was someone being highly inappropriate with an underage girl who’s parents played in several guilds. This player was warned this player was a person who was underage several times and still sent inappropriate messages to her. He was blacklisted and banned from several guilds and tried to create extensive drama over the consequences. Calling everything that was sent to her a lie despite it being true and screenshots as proof. I could list 100 examples of similar people but I figured this was the best one. Inappropriate is inappropriate. Period.

    Other games have also had limits to how many people one can ignore in the past which when I first started gaming as an aggressive pvp female I found hard to deal with. I have had problem people move guilds and get entire guilds after me in DMs spam emails, it becomes endless. As a guild master you take the blame for everything your guild does, who they kill, even things they don’t do. If there are only so many people you can put on an ignore list and when entire guilds harass you endless in DMs it really means the game itself needs to step in and moderate. Some games it takes months to get action taken against players being incessantly toxic. We get it, people get heated in pvp, which is fine, but at a certain point I think people just quit playing the game because it just strips the fun out of gaming entirely. It’s no longer about competition on the battlefield, becomes much more malicious with things like doxing, etc.

    Tools that I think would help

    Large item withdrawal flags, sometimes we want to let certain ranks have access but we want notifications from the guild vault. Such as supplies to defend territory. But if that is not needed, it’s a red flag. Maybe have certain items we can assign value to for notification or flag anything from a specific tab to read across my screen when items are pulled from it.

    Not being able to stack like items and make one withdrawal, if they are separated to pull as one, that’s all they can take. No click and drag unless it’s a permissible option on their rank. Exploitable in some games, I hope to see it avoidable in this one.

    Some form of guild contribution non-monetary point system. So we can recognize those who do a lot of hard work towards ranking up our guild. Putting our name out there should be rewarded without endless spreadsheets.

    Lots of ranks- sometimes these are too limited, makes it hard to have a few unique ranks for the highest members.

    Guild ban list- makes it so they can’t sneak back in on alts and cause problems.

    NPC kill tax

    The option to chat filter guild chat for guilds who are strict (mine aren't but others are).

    The option to squelch our own guildies (sometimes people are a little intoxicated and say some stuff but that doesn't mean we need to kick them). Let us moderate them, we do in voice chat.

  • easyeasy Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    kick bad players :):D;):p:*o:)>:)
    QCpaHh6.gif
  • VoidwalkersVoidwalkers Member
    edited August 3
    Thing is it isn't always members who are problematic, sometimes management / officers can be problematic too ... anyway

    Problematic member
    - Immature, inconsiderate, and overly self-centered behavior in general?
    - Aggressive behavior towards guildmates, impoliteness, not respecting others in general etc.
    - Always expect or even demand help from others, with no intention on giving back.
    - Excessive greed (e.g. rolling need on every loot, frequently starts loot drama etc.)
    - Bringing RL controversial topics into the game.
    - Always try to enforce their values / playstyle on other guildmates.

    Problematic management
    - Unfair loot/resource distribution (e.g. favoring their personal friends over other guild members)
    - Makes decision only from the guild's perspective while ignoring individual member's needs. (e.g. prioritizing newer, weaker members when distributing loot because it improve the guild's overall strength faster, while ignoring the existing, better geared members' desire to progress their characters)
    - Actually, unfairness in general.
    - Being overly bossy. While some level of hierarchy & power are necessary to run a guild, ppl are playing a game after all, not working a job.
  • LejeeLejee Member
    A “problematic“ member in my opinion is one who let members feel uncomfortable or if they tilt the general mood. (let's disregard just natural malicious people). If I feel such a tilt or change in mood, I first try to talk with that “problematic“ member, often they don't know/realise what they are causing. If it would afford that they change who they are, then we usually part ways in a good way. If I get the gut-feeling that that “problematic“ member is just shifting his personal problems, frustrations and pressures to others without consent, I kick them out.

    If it's a one on one problem I mediate and talk it out. If we can't resolve it, and if someone has to leave then the newer member has to go. (Exceptions if I see that one side is just stubborn)

    If a member breaks a rule and can't argue it, he gets a strike. Three and their out.
  • George BlackGeorge Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    I think we could be able to attack guild members, as opposed to what has been announced so far.
    If two people belonging in the same guild, have real human emotions of animosity between each other, I think it would be better for a good, social mmo like the one AoC wants to be, to allow for /force attack anybody. Even guild members.

    After the fight, then members of the guild can talk about who is wrong and who is right and kick whoever they want to kick.

    But seriously, allow us to attack guild members. Some times we should be able to smack somebody on the head for being stoopid.
  • I like to have guilds that are more focused on community and friendship. If people are arguing with one another, I'd want that mediated and settled. If someone is being problematic they would be asked to leave.

    I consider problem players ones that bring negativity into the game, like arguments about politics, personal attacks on others, anything not game related. This is a fantasy world where people come to escape all that stuff and the last thing I want to see in my own guild's chat is people arguing about real world issues.

    It goes without saying that if someone is found to be a creep, or harassing another player, or generally making other players feel uncomfortable, whether it's with toxicity, trolling, or creepiness.. then they're out. Not only towards other guildies but to any player in the game. I don't want weirdos like that in my guild, representing us.

    I'm looking forward to building a wholesome little guild for myself and my friends here in Ashes.
  • RhordenRhorden Member
    A wise man once said "The problem with today's society, is we no longer drink from the skulls of our enemies."
    Good god, you people don't know how to settle conflict do you? You aren't running a HR dept in a big company are you? Why are you sticking to those rules, guidelines and boring as hell solutions? Let the blood flow and the dust settle where it may.

    I've run several guilds in my time and they all ran smooth. New guild members must be told all your rules AND expectations up front. After that they can do what they want. The type of rules you have depends on you and the goals of your guild. That's it, plain and simple. I'm not your babysitter, your mom or your parole officer. Don't bring your crap here.

    Dealing with trouble makers and problems;
    First, I only run adult guilds. If I have to step in and take care of this then you are taking away from my time, and possibly my officers time, to play the game and for that you will pay.


    Trial by Fire solution; ​If there is an issue and I have to step in then it's game on! Solutions would be;

    1) In a PvP guild? It's PvP duels. Best 3 of 5. Winner decides if the loser gets kicked .Betting is allowed for the audience. No one has ever been kicked this way and those involved always managed to solve it on their own afterwards.

    2) Got someone with sticky fingers when it comes to loot rolls? No problem. They can act like a beggar on a corner but instead of asking for coin they are offering their own gold to anyone that wants it. Dress the roll, talk with a slur and hand out gold like water. Whatever they swiped you take its value times 10 and that's what they have to give away. Also divide the value by 30. That's the max they can give away per minute.

    3) Someone acting like an idiot shooting off their mouth and creating trouble? Fine. Stand in a big city and do insult jokes about yourself, or yo mama, for 30 minutes. That usually cures diarrhea of the mouth.

    4) Got a top shelf hemorrhoid that doesn't necessarily break the rules but is just an overall unpleasant individual that irritates everyone they come in contact with? Just be honest with them about it. "Hey bro, it's not us it's you" Give that guy an impossible task and tell them don't come back until it's done. No point in not sharing the misery.

    5) Got a troll on board. I personally hate trolls and have no problem giving them the boot followed up by full on war with any guild that takes them in. The only rule is you aren't allowed to kill the troll, just the guild they joined. It's amusing when they think he's a spy and turn on him.

    The list goes on and on but the main thing to do is use your noodle to find a creative solution. I lay the rules out very clearly when people join and if you break them then it's on you to deal with the punishment or leave. That said I rarely have drama and my guilds clicked quite nicely. Hold people to a higher standard and you'll get people of that caliber. I don't create problems in my guild. I expect the same.
  • Greetings again my friends - thank you all so much for joining in and sharing your thoughts on internal conflict as it relates to your guild! I'm writing up a recap for our team with your feedback now, but please feel free to keep leaving us notes here in the meantime <3
    3ztrsitvhj3s.gif
  • George BlackGeorge Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Greetings again my friends - thank you all so much for joining in and sharing your thoughts on internal conflict as it relates to your guild! I'm writing up a recap for our team with your feedback now, but please feel free to keep leaving us notes here in the meantime <3

    What would be an example of an ingame system relating to internal guild conflict?
  • TeamVASHTeamVASH Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Problematic member for the guild is people who are combative or easily offended.
    I would handle it by explaining to them my value system and what I'm looking for and I give them an opportunity to correect the behaviour and if it's not a good fit, we amicably part ways.

    Expecations: I have a guild recruitment form they have to fill out.
    Consequences: I stab them repeatedly until they die... lol jokes same as above :P
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  • AeleanaelAeleanael Member
    edited August 11
    Hello,

    These are really good questions I have to admit, that deal directly with human behaviors and the ways to keep a community in a healthy state (sorry if my lack of vocabulary makes it sound weird, I hope you get the idea).

    What makes a “problematic” member for your guild ?

    I guess all the points have already been highlighted by the previous replies.
    The bascis of freedom are that « You are free to do whatever you want UNLESS it brings harm other [let's add « or to the game » in this context :) ).
    Breaking this « freedom definition » is what makes a member becoming « problematic ».

    and how do you handle situations as they arise?

    That obviously depends of the situations itself, since we can't deal with a guy « just » cursing an opponent he've lost to the same way we deal with cheaters or people becomic toxic on the long run.

    For « heavy » faults (like cheating, or IRL threats or whatever I would qualify as « dangerous for the players or the game »), what we did would have been a guild kick.

    For « small » faults, talking with the « culprit » usually was enough to prevent further worst behavior.
    The point was to make them realize what they did wrong (seems obvious ? I know for fact it is not), and consider if they could act better by themselves, or if punishment was needed (like mute/grade downgrade / guild ressource access removal and stuff like that).

    The worst source of « problematic » members I have in mind were the one that led to great internal dissenssions due to their talks or actions. I mean by that these talks&acts MAY not technically be « punishable », but more « border line », and lead to the creations of the « pro » and « cons » groups to arise.
    If it comes to the point we can't make the two of them discuss instead of being ruder and ruder to each other, it can run quickly out of control and create great damages.

    I have an example in mind that torn our guild apart for months, I'll develop it in the following spoiler as an example :
    The discord point we encountered was about 18+ talks on the guild channel.

    A part of the young adults of the guild started to have more and more 18+ talks since they were getting along quite well and creating bonds and so on.

    Problem was that we also had a couple of minors in the guild, and that other grown up members disliked seing on a regular base these 18+ talks on the guild channel since they were definitely not playing the game for that.
    But most of them just didn't talk « publicly » about it.

    At this time we were around 200 members for approximately 25-45 people connected on the evening. GMs as myself were not as present as we should have been in game (mostly following the guild life through our forum ).
    Officers tried to calm down the 18 y.o. Group a bit in game at first, but ended up by giving up since these guys were also game friends, and weren't « hurting anyone » (which retrospectically speaking is wrong for the minors one but that's not my main point here).

    After some weeks, it has became a real issue, with not « ponctual » but continously 18+ talks/jokes every evening again and again... that's the situation I've walked in when I came back ig with more time to play.

    Asking this 18+ group to quit with the 18+ talk has been ineffective. They refused to admit that their talks were a disturbance to the guild with mainly the following arguments :
    - people don't complain about it (fairly true)
    - let us have fun, this is not a prison we are free (freedom was already a very mis-used word at the time)
    - you GM are just a mood-killer

    Since the other GMs were not that present ig and nothing about it was discussed on the forum, they were simply not aware of the extent of this daily situation.

    I ended up staying in game for all evening/night-long for a couple of days, taking tons of screenshots of the 18+ talks that were going on.
    Then I posted it on the officer/GM part of the forum. We discussed about it for days. Some of us were part of the « punishing » response, and other ones of a « discussion response ».

    At last the « discussion response » was prefered, and the GM that was the closest to the 18+ group talked to them, but unfortunately that led to no behavior changes.

    The topic had then left the « officer/GM » part to spread to the whole guild, through arguments after arguments that often turned to clashes.

    Finally we ended up doing a vote among all active members in order to see who was actually in favor/not minding all the 18+ talk, and those who were opposed to it.
    The « opposed » part ended up being far ahead at the end of the votes.

    This « vote » point is the actual event that allowed some of the 18+ group to come to realize their talks were an actual disturbance for the majority of the guild members.
    They were genuinly convinced that in was not the case before that, which made all the discussion we had before very innefficient.

    After that, things settled down. Some of the « 18+ core member » didn't give up, and ended up being mute/kicked after we ran out of patience during the next months.

    Over years that's the one and only major event that brought so much discord within the guild ranks : each side being genuinly convinced they were in their right, and that the other side was not respecting this right.

    --

    This occured years ago I've learned quite some things about psychology since then, but I'm still not sure what is the best way to deal with it.

    Using « force » by mass muting/kicking people right away may have had quicker « good » consequences on the sort run (no more non-stop 18+ talk), but would most certainly have lead to a large guild quit from people that were for most of them just unaware of the disturbance they were creating.

    On the other side, the discussion parts not only didn't allow to solve the issue until the vote part, but it also ended up dividing the guild. « I'm for, he's against, he's talking crap it makes no sens » etc. from both sides.
    Constructives discussions ended up to a position war, degrading a lot the guild relationships between people.

    So, was the risk of « unfair » mute/kick of the « people that may change their mind » was worth for theses weeks of degraded relationships and discord ?

    I have no clue about that.



    At a guild level (not talking about a whole game management here, which is on an other scale and may not be able to go this far for every individual), I think that :

    - having at least a talk with the « problematic » guild member is the right call. Tyresias is making some very good points in his/her post, people creating problems are ALWAYS people that are also DEALING with problems on their own. Throwing punishments at them right away is just making things worse, this is by no way a good thing to do to a guild member. Moving the problem instead of fixing it never solved anything.

    - that being said, there is a point where the kind approach very sadly doesn't work anymore. If some guy has decided to be a total jerk and refuses to even consider the nuisance he is responsible for, then discussion is pointless (and can even be counterproductive).
    Trying to « save » this kind of people is nice and noble, BUT if he brings harm to the other around him, letting him continue to do so in order to try to « save » him is definitely not the right thing on a community perspective. In this situation punishment is the only call.

    --

    Conclusion :

    In my opinion, the main and sometime highly tricky point about dealing with « problematic » guild members is to identify :

    1) What is the extent of the harm he/she has brought to the community.
    2) If he/she is aware of the harm he/she brings to the community.
    3) If he/she can be brought back to better behavior through discussion or not.


    These three points may allow to define to which extent a punishment may be the only way to get out of the situation or not, and what degree of punishment should then be applied.

    Considering of course the fact that smooth talks [from the "problematic member"] are of course a thing, but that ACTIONS tell more than a thousand words.
  • NynaeveNynaeve Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The most common problem I've run into playing competitively is that it is extremely difficult to find a good mix of someone who you actually like/whose personality blends with your guild, and is also a very good, complete player. I have often times found you sacrifice letting things go because someone is particularly good on their class or helpful to the guild, but the personality or their social interactions are less than stellar.

    Most often, if someone is particularly greedy it is a sign of bad things to come. I've seen a lot of instances where people will get gear as first priority because they are topping DPS meters, and use it as a stepping stone to gear out and then move on to a top guild. If people are always focused on the lack of gear being funneled their way, it's a bad sign; especially if it's in a relatively newly formed guild or group of people.
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