wherediditrun wrote: » However, the framing narrows down the conversation / issue space and to a point that some of the substance is left out. I'm Lithuanian. None of the issues talked about maps on personal experience, historical or social context. The game is ultimately global. And losing this perspective, that is being rather focused on certain sensibilities will lead to friction points which often leads to rather accusitory rethoric which is not helpful.
Dygz wrote: » Mmmmn. No. If there are systems that prevent players from creating dark-skinned versions of the player races that is systemic racism. The fact that I could not create characters in WoW with African (or Asian) features prior to 2020 is systemic racism. The fact that the tribal races in WoW were "bestial" and "savage" and ultimately revealed to be the Evil Faction is systemic racism. The smallest "race" of people in the real world are the African Efe. If I cannot create Halflings or Dwarves with African features - or Asian features, etc, - that is systemic racism. Racism that is built into the systems. The tallest "race" of people in the real world are the Dinka - but we never see Giants with African features in Fantasy settings, it's almost always Giants with light skin and European features. The tradition that in Fantasy settings that Dwarves, Elves and Halflings are all light-skinned, with European features is systemic racism. Dark-skinned Elves are Evil. Orcs and Half-Orcs - the colored races - are Evil. That is systemic racism. And in 2021, that should not be a thing. I don't need to quibble about whether or not Merek's statement is "racist"... but it is advocating for systemic racism. If someone advocated for gender-locked classes, I would be talking about systemic sexism.
Dolyem wrote: » Its only systemic racism if the objective is to exclude a race due to a prejudice bias.
Dygz wrote: » Nope. Using systems to exclude people from participating in a culture due to the darkness of their skin is systemic racism. Plain and simple.
JustVine wrote: » Mk given y'all ignored my warning and Dygz seems to be handling it ok I will only point out one thing. It's pretty naive to think racist ass people won't look at a race system where they are divided by skin color, and then not use that as a way to project their out of game racism in game. Making all skin tones available for all races removes that layer of obfuscation so that it is clear to mods when dealing with extreme cases. Imperfect as others will use the races themselves for it, but it's still better than the alternative.
Dolyem wrote: » By that logic if there is a race developed around warrior tribes of Africa in a region similar to Africa, it should be just fine with having a bunch of European physical feature options for them. Personally I would rather see the skin slider be limited to darker shades since it pays tribute to the real world culture and people it was based upon. Its not racist to do that because the intent isn't to exclude, the intent is to pay homage and add a sense of realism and relativity. But again, I still think it is best to allow everyone to pick whatever they'd like because individual character experience is what is best for the player, and it keeps people from screaming "RACISM!" when it is either a inclusivity problem or not a problem at all because there is still inclusion, just in a different variant.
Dygz wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » By that logic if there is a race developed around warrior tribes of Africa in a region similar to Africa, it should be just fine with having a bunch of European physical feature options for them. Personally I would rather see the skin slider be limited to darker shades since it pays tribute to the real world culture and people it was based upon. Its not racist to do that because the intent isn't to exclude, the intent is to pay homage and add a sense of realism and relativity. But again, I still think it is best to allow everyone to pick whatever they'd like because individual character experience is what is best for the player, and it keeps people from screaming "RACISM!" when it is either a inclusivity problem or not a problem at all because there is still inclusion, just in a different variant. I'm pretty sure that there are Africans with European features and light skin. Just as there were Europeans with light skin adopted into Native American tribes. So... yes. That would be fine.
Lazorus wrote: » Hey this game looks amazing for alpha stage! I am personally very interested in seeing this game succeed and from all the footage I watched there was one thing that was really lacking and that was lack of diverse looking characters primarily when it came to seeing different races. Many people I think take a lot of joy in making very different looking characters and in games like WoW and Everquest 2 one of the things that was super appealing was just having so many options to choose from in terms of race and customizing your character to be as unique as possible
Dolyem wrote: » Sounds like you want to count colonizers and individuals of foreign origins as definitive representatives of the cultures they work their way into? You're reaching now. All I am making my point for is saying it isn't racist if there was no intent to discriminate, and it aligns with cultural and regional lore, and that goes for any race. An all melanin heavy race with no "European features" or white people isn't racist so long as it isn't intended to be and makes sense with the lore, and vice versa. But we shouldn't and can't do that sort of thing in these games, because some people jump to the conclusion that it was done with racist intent, which is why its better to allow everyone to make their character look as they wish.
CROW3 wrote: » I'm giving my Dunir 'Floki eyes.'
Dygz wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Sounds like you want to count colonizers and individuals of foreign origins as definitive representatives of the cultures they work their way into? You're reaching now. All I am making my point for is saying it isn't racist if there was no intent to discriminate, and it aligns with cultural and regional lore, and that goes for any race. An all melanin heavy race with no "European features" or white people isn't racist so long as it isn't intended to be and makes sense with the lore, and vice versa. But we shouldn't and can't do that sort of thing in these games, because some people jump to the conclusion that it was done with racist intent, which is why its better to allow everyone to make their character look as they wish. I don't know what you mean by "definitive representatives". Systemic Racism: It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behavior that amount to discrimination through prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness, and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people. At any rate... We should probably move away from the derail and return to the original topic.
"Mordimer wrote: » So you are claiming that Mother Nature is racist? Nope, that's the way things are. Every region on the planet has its representatives based on best adaptation to climate, environment, etc... that's Mother's Nature system - and believe me, it has nothing with racism. You have an unhealthy obsession with the topic despite the fact that MOST of the planet Earth don't give a shit and don't have problems with "systemic racism". If the lore says black race is black - then it's black... simple. If it's green, then it's green. But you say that you're going to point that orcs can't be orange and don't have tails... and the reason is "systemic racism"? Wtf...
Dygz wrote: » At any rate... We should probably move away from the derail and return to the original topic.
