Crowd control should not be based on RNG

i just dont like the idea where you pray that your CC actually hits or not, and im not talking about balancing right now, this is about CC. Not what class has it or not, but if it should be guaranteed hit or not.

if its guaranteed = skills matter more than RNG
if its not (like it is now in alpha) = if you have bad luck you will die to the on who has better luck.

toughts?

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Sathrago

drowned out

Mayhem

I'd be down for gear having cc duration increase/decrease and having cc hit 100% rather than RNG%
Also we need skillshots and not auto homing projectiles/cc

Something like

Fireball
LvL 1: (TAB Projectile) Cast a Fireball to target and deal dot dmg for x seconds
LvL 2: (Skillshot Projectile) Increased Fireball dmg /and dot duration
LvL 3: (Skillshot Projectile) Fireball explodes dealing dmg and applying dot to enemies around the area

Counterspell
LvL 1: (Instant Tab Ability) Interrupts your targets current spell
LvL 2: (Hitscan Skillshot) Silence your target for X seconds making them unable to cast
LvL 3: (Hitscan Skillshot) Increase Silence duration

Frostbolt
LvL 1: (TAB Projectile) Cast a Frostbolt to target Slowing them by x amount
LvL 2: (Skillshot Projectile) Frostbolt now Roots the target, making them unable to move
LvL 3: (Skillshot Projectile) Frostbolt now Freezes the target, stunning them for X seconds

Dunno if the Z action cam switch is gonna stay but would be interesting if we had abilities like that and action mode gave +1 point to abilities as passive. Idk how i feel about the hybrid system

truelyyy

Noaani wrote: »

truely wrote: »

I'm not saying you can't have skill in creating builds overall. I'm saying you can't have skill in builds that are based on upping %disable modifiers. Also not sure what you mean by stats on armour are not predetermined, armour still has set stats you can't choose whatever you like, obviously different armour offers different stats.

No one said anything about basing builds on percent chances, that is simply a viable aspect of builds.

It may well be that your build has no CC breaks, and so any increase to the chance a CC will miss you is inherently good. On the other hand, it may be that you have a lot of CC breaks, and so this stat is of no use to you. Or you could fit somewhere in the middle.

Also;

Crafters will be able to assign different skills/abilities and stats on gear.[15][16]
Master crafters will be able to influence several (but not all) stats on their crafted items.[15][17]

Since most gear will be crafted (likely 90%+ of what is actually used), it is indeed true that stats on gear are not pre-determined.

Which, incidentally, is why I said it.

maybe theorycrafting what you say logically makes sense but it just wont ever play out like that. You are never gona be able to get disable modifiers so high compared to people offensive disable modifiers that you wont need cc breaks and can put skills elsewhere.

your point about the armour, if you can craft your own stats on armour within certain parameters would still play out the same as being able to able to craft 20 different armours of pre-determined stats which cover all the same stats as the customizable ones. I doubt they are going to just let you have whatever you want to you just go all in one stats for example. Otherwise that seems like a horrible system to me

truelyyy

JustVine wrote: »

truely wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

truely wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

truely wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

truely wrote: »

Guli wrote: »

Good that people have different thoughts on this, we need to figure this out sooner than later.
also i thought about it some more, and what if CC has 100% hit rate (if not rolled/shielded etc) but you could modify your gear/use skills that shorten the amount of time you are affected by the CC.

I think that's a great solution if the disable% stats affect hard CC length rather than completely nullifying the CC

I've only seen this work in fighting game strategy level champion fighters. Ashes is neither a champion fighter nor do people seem to want this to be fighting game level design balance (after all we are talking about ashes having hard cc here which in itself negates two layers of fighting game style strategy.) Name a mmo this solution has ever made stun not a stagnating/build restricting factor in the meta or not a free win.

what's your point, that there should be no hard CCs?
Pretty sure GW2 has hard CCs and it's not a CC stun lock auto win.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/70706-stun-meta-needs-to-go/ Uhm.....

You always get people moaning about stuff. If you read the post most of the people replying they disagree with the OP. This really doesn't prove anything, having played GW2 myself I can say hard CC isnt a problem in that game.

It stagnates meta and restricts build choices. It is the number one leading cause for it. That's all I have argued in this thread. There are proposed solutions for alternatives to one button hard cc in @Dreoh stun thread.

you are debating a point which isn't the point of the thread...it's about RnG on hard CC not whether they should exist or not.

You aren't getting my point if that's your conclusion. I was pointing out that rng vs action would not change the effect it has on meta and builds (which is my actual problem with it.)

you are correct I don't understand can you please explain. From what you said above your problem is still with there being any hard CC in the game will be a boring meta/builds which I stated before still seems to be about whether hard CC is in the game.

Dygz

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I think this relates to the topic very well. Skill shots as I understand the term should act outside the RPG RNG hit/miss system. Stats should not be involved for these skills. As a player, I proved I hit my target when I aimed for it. My target failed his dodge/evasion check when I hit him.

They don't act completely outside of the RPG RNG of hit/miss. But, the RNG is greatly reduced.

Noaani

truely wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

truely wrote: »

I'm not saying you can't have skill in creating builds overall. I'm saying you can't have skill in builds that are based on upping %disable modifiers. Also not sure what you mean by stats on armour are not predetermined, armour still has set stats you can't choose whatever you like, obviously different armour offers different stats.

No one said anything about basing builds on percent chances, that is simply a viable aspect of builds.

It may well be that your build has no CC breaks, and so any increase to the chance a CC will miss you is inherently good. On the other hand, it may be that you have a lot of CC breaks, and so this stat is of no use to you. Or you could fit somewhere in the middle.

Also;

Crafters will be able to assign different skills/abilities and stats on gear.[15][16]
Master crafters will be able to influence several (but not all) stats on their crafted items.[15][17]

Since most gear will be crafted (likely 90%+ of what is actually used), it is indeed true that stats on gear are not pre-determined.

Which, incidentally, is why I said it.

maybe theorycrafting what you say logically makes sense but it just wont ever play out like that. You are never gona be able to get disable modifiers so high compared to people offensive disable modifiers that you wont need cc breaks and can put skills elsewhere.

This is just a case of balance.

It may be that you would rather have abilities other than CC breaks, or perhaps you are expecting to only really ever be in PvP combat while out with your guild, where you may have others that will cleanse CC's off you. This would mean that CC breaks may just not be worth taking in your build, but you may still want some degree of protection against them - even if RNG based - for if those players are not available.

your point about the armour, if you can craft your own stats on armour within certain parameters would still play out the same as being able to able to craft 20 different armours of pre-determined stats which cover all the same stats as the customizable ones. I doubt they are going to just let you have whatever you want to you just go all in one stats for example. Otherwise that seems like a horrible system to me

Why would it be a horrible system to allow players customization of their stats?

If the game were the kind of game where you only wanted one or two stats - such as WoW or ESO - then yeah, it would be pointless.

On the other hand, if the game gave all players a real benefit from all stats, why would it be a bad thing to allow players to decide what they want?

Quite honestly, you seem to be wanting everything just broken down in to it's simplest form.

truelyyy

Noaani wrote: »

truely wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

truely wrote: »

I'm not saying you can't have skill in creating builds overall. I'm saying you can't have skill in builds that are based on upping %disable modifiers. Also not sure what you mean by stats on armour are not predetermined, armour still has set stats you can't choose whatever you like, obviously different armour offers different stats.

No one said anything about basing builds on percent chances, that is simply a viable aspect of builds.

It may well be that your build has no CC breaks, and so any increase to the chance a CC will miss you is inherently good. On the other hand, it may be that you have a lot of CC breaks, and so this stat is of no use to you. Or you could fit somewhere in the middle.

Also;

Crafters will be able to assign different skills/abilities and stats on gear.[15][16]
Master crafters will be able to influence several (but not all) stats on their crafted items.[15][17]

Since most gear will be crafted (likely 90%+ of what is actually used), it is indeed true that stats on gear are not pre-determined.

Which, incidentally, is why I said it.

maybe theorycrafting what you say logically makes sense but it just wont ever play out like that. You are never gona be able to get disable modifiers so high compared to people offensive disable modifiers that you wont need cc breaks and can put skills elsewhere.

This is just a case of balance.

It may be that you would rather have abilities other than CC breaks, or perhaps you are expecting to only really ever be in PvP combat while out with your guild, where you may have others that will cleanse CC's off you. This would mean that CC breaks may just not be worth taking in your build, but you may still want some degree of protection against them - even if RNG based - for if those players are not available.

your point about the armour, if you can craft your own stats on armour within certain parameters would still play out the same as being able to able to craft 20 different armours of pre-determined stats which cover all the same stats as the customizable ones. I doubt they are going to just let you have whatever you want to you just go all in one stats for example. Otherwise that seems like a horrible system to me

Why would it be a horrible system to allow players customization of their stats?

If the game were the kind of game where you only wanted one or two stats - such as WoW or ESO - then yeah, it would be pointless.

On the other hand, if the game gave all players a real benefit from all stats, why would it be a bad thing to allow players to decide what they want?

Quite honestly, you seem to be wanting everything just broken down in to it's simplest form.

I'm just realistic. You can go further than other MMORPGs is some aspects but you can't do whatever you like without creating massive imbalances in the game. i.e. just putting all your stats and becoming a literal one shot glass cannon. It's not what I'm saying is simplest form , I would say you want whatever possible customisations you want whilst the game having good balance, good feeling gameplay, just isn't possible.

Also with CC counter plays like dodging, blinking, ally CC breaks, shielding, healing I dont see why you need to add RnG CC. As I stated before why RnG a spell effect? If it's for hard CC why it not for other spell effects? doesn't make much sense to put in.

Dygz

RNG reflects the character's stats and abilities as well as mortal error.
RNG is going to be in everything, not just hard CC.

Noaani

truely wrote: »

just putting all your stats and becoming a literal one shot glass cannon.

The thing with a build like this is that while you may be able to kill others quickly, they can also kill you quickly.

Stacking one stat is not a hard thing to balance. One fairly easy way to do it is with some tinkering with diminishing returns. It isn't the only way, but it is easily understood by most MMO players.

If it's for hard CC why it not for other spell effects? doesn't make much sense to put in.

Most games have resistance stats against various types of magic.

These resistances in some games just reduce the damage that the type of magic in question does, but in some games it also offers a change to outright resist the spell. Some games even have different stats for these two effects, with one functioning as a spell version of physical damages mitigation/armor, and the other acting as an avoidance analogue.

Every single ability in a game should be subject to some form of RNG, and every form of RNG should be able to have it's outcome affected by player choice.

truelyyy

what games have a resistance where you can outright resist a spell? Never heard of that before, I mean reistances as reduction make sense and I'd have no issue in a CC resistance reducing the CC time...

Noaani

truely wrote: »

what games have a resistance where you can outright resist a spell?

Both EQ games, off the top of my head.

I assume you are also staunchly against the concept of avoidance.

truelyyy

Noaani wrote: »

truely wrote: »

what games have a resistance where you can outright resist a spell?

Both EQ games, off the top of my head.

I assume you are also staunchly against the concept of avoidance.

like evasion? It can be ok, but probably better to not but I don't think it's as bad as going for a CC move and it not having any effect. keeping the RnG more to damage/healing/incoming damage makes more sense to me.

The way I see it you want RnG within a certain range otherwise it becomes too much luck based and feels bad. However some RnG and luck can be good so the small guy occasionally takes down the bigger foe but just super pot luck isn't great.

Noaani

truely wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

truely wrote: »

what games have a resistance where you can outright resist a spell?

Both EQ games, off the top of my head.

I assume you are also staunchly against the concept of avoidance.

like evasion? It can be ok, but probably better to not but I don't think it's as bad as going for a CC move and it not having any effect. keeping the RnG more to damage/healing/incoming damage makes more sense to me.

So, you're fine with things you are not relying on being resisted.

Don't rely so heavily on your CC, problem solved.

truelyyy

Noaani wrote: »

truely wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

truely wrote: »

what games have a resistance where you can outright resist a spell?

Both EQ games, off the top of my head.

I assume you are also staunchly against the concept of avoidance.

like evasion? It can be ok, but probably better to not but I don't think it's as bad as going for a CC move and it not having any effect. keeping the RnG more to damage/healing/incoming damage makes more sense to me.

So, you're fine with things you are not relying on being resisted.

Don't rely so heavily on your CC, problem solved.

ofc lets not rely on our spells and effects lets just autohit each other and hope I crit more. Your logic makes no sense...

Noaani

truely wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

truely wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

truely wrote: »

what games have a resistance where you can outright resist a spell?

Both EQ games, off the top of my head.

I assume you are also staunchly against the concept of avoidance.

like evasion? It can be ok, but probably better to not but I don't think it's as bad as going for a CC move and it not having any effect. keeping the RnG more to damage/healing/incoming damage makes more sense to me.

So, you're fine with things you are not relying on being resisted.

Don't rely so heavily on your CC, problem solved.

ofc lets not rely on our spells and effects lets just autohit each other and hope I crit more. Your logic makes no sense...

What you are suggesting is not my logic, so of course it makes no sense.

If you rely on any one spell or ability, expect to lose. it doesn't matter if that spell or ability is a backstab, a nuke, a heal or a CC.

You can rely on your entire build - if you build it well. But that is only because if you create a good build, you are not reliant on any one ability - not even a CC.

truelyyy

Noaani wrote: »

truely wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

truely wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

truely wrote: »

what games have a resistance where you can outright resist a spell?

Both EQ games, off the top of my head.

I assume you are also staunchly against the concept of avoidance.

like evasion? It can be ok, but probably better to not but I don't think it's as bad as going for a CC move and it not having any effect. keeping the RnG more to damage/healing/incoming damage makes more sense to me.

So, you're fine with things you are not relying on being resisted.

Don't rely so heavily on your CC, problem solved.

ofc lets not rely on our spells and effects lets just autohit each other and hope I crit more. Your logic makes no sense...

What you are suggesting is not my logic, so of course it makes no sense.

If you rely on any one spell or ability, expect to lose. it doesn't matter if that spell or ability is a backstab, a nuke, a heal or a CC.

You can rely on your entire build - if you build it well. But that is only because if you create a good build, you are not reliant on any one ability - not even a CC.

Saying not relying on using your abilities is just the most nonsense statement I have ever heard. It doesn't matter about if it's 1 ability or 10, if you cast it you expect it to cast. Imagine RnGing if heals get cast, even you would admit that's ridiculous. Same applies. I'm out of this pointless discussion.

Noaani

truely wrote: »

Saying not relying on using your abilities is just the most nonsense statement I have ever heard.

Same, which is why I didn't say that.

I said don't rely on a single ability.

I mean, you are CLEARLY not willing to play the game in front of you. If the game in front of you has RNG aspects, play those RNG aspects. Don't play the game as if it doesn't have them.

Playing the game in a way where you are reliant on an individual ability always landing is not how you play a game with RNG aspects.

It really is that simple.

Kyonsupp

There is a game which "solved" this pretty well, i did a lot of PvP in this game and no one ever had any trouble with the system they used for CC resistance and how rng was incorporated, so...

In Ragnarok Online, there is a status system for your character, everytime you level up you gain status points you can assign to one of 6 stats; Strength, Intelligence, Vitality, Dexterity, Agility and Luk.

When you level up any of those stats you gain different things, for example; Increasing your agility you gain Attack Speed, Flee rate and other stuff, the same for the other 5 stats, and between those benefits you also earn CC resistances. Leveling up your Vitality to 100 gives stun inmunity, leveling your Luk to 100 gives you Freeze inmunity and so. Depending the amount of one stat you has, you get a % resistance for the CC linked to that stat, but the good thing about this, is that you didn't only gain % resistance alone, because along to this percent you also reduce the time of the CC applying to you, so let's say you has 99 VIT, you has a 1% chance of getting stuned, but even if you get stuned, the duration of that stun was so little that you didn't even notice. Of course you can't get all the stats maxed, and that's the interesting part, you can make your build so unique that you can even choose the resistances to different CCs in chance AND time, anyways that's for other topic.

What i wanted to tell with this large explanation is that making the CC resistance % directly proportional with the amount of time you got CCed is great, because if you don't, there is always the posiility of getting 99% resistance to a stun and being stunned for 3 seconds anyways, this only makes you say: "Oh f***ng game how am i so unlucky?" and rage.

So i think that probabilities on CCs are good as long as you can manipulate them in form of time and chance in your builld.

Nepoke

I think in short @Guli has the right of it. Predictable results are simply less frustrating and promote skill over luck.

My pvp roots come from Neverwinter nights pvp servers, and I had an absolute blast in that game. But wait, wasn't NWN an RNG nightmare? Why am I against RNG now if it was so fun? Let me give a brief rundown on the game:

In summary, Neverwinter nights emulated DnD 3.0 ruleset, so nearly all actions and thus most forms of CC had at minimum a fail chance of 5% and at maximum a success chance of 95%. The reason the game was incredibly fun was how flexibly you could build and itemize your character to fine tune your character to get an edge over the "meta".

For example, Storm of Vengeance is a huge persistent AoE that stuns everyone in it who fail a reflex saving throw every 6 seconds for... 12 seconds. Basically, if somebody brought a cleric who could cast a high difficulty class SoV, you had three options:

You give up something else to have enough reflex save to reliably make the checks.
You rely on your mechanical skill to stay outside of the spell and keep up immunities with scrolls and potions while fighting in it.
You make a build that is completely immune to the stun altogether via some combination of classes.

All of these were fun, except option 1 has a problem with it. The word reliably. You could do everything right: You could have enough reflex save to only fail 5% of the time, while also keeping up stun immunity through clarity potions. Still, countless of times, even the best players would get dispelled just before a saving throw is made and they'd roll a 1. Happy 12 seconds of standing still, you've truly earned it.

On the attacking side, there is no worse feeling than having Captain Negative Saves charge at you while no-selling multiple 95% stun spells that his build is supposed to be weak to. And even when you luck out and CC someone who should have been safe, the victory doesn't feel earned.

In retrospect, Neverwinter nights would have been just as fun with just as many build options if CC's with over 30% chance of success would have been guaranteed, and anything below would have always failed. Instead of building for chance, people would have built around breakpoints to counter specific spells and builds. Engagements would have played just about the same, with vulnerable people playing safe and high saves people relying on their stats.

Also, while there were certain places where the RNG was functional (knockdown, though some might disagree) or a balancing factor (dev crit, implosion, though many would disagree), these cases could have been replaced by some other deterministic mechanism without ruining the rest of the game.

Basically, after trying out GW2 pvp, I see no reason for a modern game to rely on RNG as a crutch to diversify outcomes. Status resistance (I sort of like what @Kyonsupp said about building stats against specific CC types), stun breaks, evasion skills and avoidance by positioning all give the player more agency over the outcome. Leaving outcomes up to chance is useful for dramatic moments in poker or DnD, but can feel like stubbing your toe in a fast paced game.

Thanks for reading, I hope I could convey my experiences properly.

CROW3

So let me ask a related question. Do you think that every attack swing at a mob/player needs to hit 100% of the time? Do you ever have a chance to miss a target?

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