Character creation diversity

Hey this game looks amazing for alpha stage! I am personally very interested in seeing this game succeed and from all the footage I watched there was one thing that was really lacking and that was lack of diverse looking characters primarily when it came to seeing different races. Many people I think take a lot of joy in making very different looking characters and in games like WoW and Everquest 2 one of the things that was super appealing was just having so many options to choose from in terms of race and customizing your character to be as unique as possible

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Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

As I said earlier, I am not against options, but I am also not against wanting to stick to a games lore (not that we have any idea what the racial lore in this regard is in Ashes).

What this says to me is that my ultimate system for it would be to restrict racial appearances based on what the lore of the game says - if at all - and then provide any other look via other means, such as cosmetics, illusions, or what ever else.

Right, but from a mechanical point of view, it makes no sense to take those options away from the character creator.

The result would be the same. Races with "Unnatural" skin/hair/eye colors.

It isn't *my* preference to limit these things.

My preference is to follow the games lore of it has any in this regard.

Cypher wrote: »

What do you consider "over the top" though? Blue and Green on humans for example is where I would say it's too far.

The MMO character that I played most was blue tinged.

Thing is, the lore of the game saw that race have skin colors ranging from gray through to blue/gray and green/gray, and on to dull purple.

You literally couldn't have that race be any realistic skin color, even though it was a "human" type race.

Since it was explained perfectly well in the lore, this was just all fine.

Cypher

Noaani wrote: »

The MMO character that I played most was blue tinged.

Thing is, the lore of the game saw that race have skin colors ranging from gray through to blue/gray and green/gray, and on to dull purple.

You literally couldn't have that race be any realistic skin color, even though it was a "human" type race.

Since it was explained perfectly well in the lore, this was just all fine.

Sure, totally get what you're saying. But in this case I didn't say "human-type" I said "human". And I think other human-"type" races should absolutely at the very least have a full range of natural tones. I'm a little indifferent on whether Elves and Dwarves could go beyond that, but if you forced me to pick, I would say no blues and greens on them. Again, Tulnar and Orcs though? Go crazy, whatever you want.

Noaani

Cypher wrote: »

Sure, totally get what you're saying. But in this case I didn't say "human-type" I said "human".

In the case in question, the race was previously human.

It is less "human type", perhaps, and more "human variant".

Basically, they were humans living in a city that had a magical based issue, resulting in their appearance changing.

This is not completely different to Drow getting their skin color (via a curse, iirc), or Elder Scrolls Dunmer with their color. Different McGuffin, same story.

As an aside, this race was also completely bald, and had glowing glyphs on their body.

Its things like this that are why I am perfectly fine with some races having uniqueness to them - again, lore permitting.

If every race in a game has the option of every color, hairstyle, accessory etc, then race just becomes a matter of picking the stats you want and nothing more.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

It isn't *my* preference to limit these things.

My preference is to follow the games lore of it has any in this regard.

Which is why now more than ever is the time to really have this conversation. The lore is not set in stone yet.
Steven has an idea about his world, but it is not really the world from his mind anymore. It stopped being the world from Steven's imagination and became a collaboration the moment Steven hired concept artists.

Collaborative works can evolve from the original creator's intentions. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine is considered to be the "anti-roddenberry" Star Trek. Nearly everything about the show goes against guidelines put forth in Roddenberry's original Star Trek bible. Yet, still, it pushed the universe forward arguably more than any other show in the franchise with minimal recons.

There is also evidence that Steven cares more about "The rule of cool" than lore. I always call into question the phoenix death animation. Do we have that death animation now because Steven has had it in his mind for all these years and finally found some animators to put in action? Or did it come about from collaboration with animators and concept artists, thinking it would be a cool thing to add? I don't know the answer for sure, but my guess would be that Steven is just following the rule of cool.

When the game goes live. If there is specific lore stating how and why dwarfs cannot get tan. Maybe then I would relax my opinion. I am not a fan of reconning established lore, without a good reason. We just don't have established lore yet. I won't consider the lore established until the game launches.

Dolyem

Wowzers, this discussion seems to becoming a constructive one now! I dig it.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Which is why now more than ever is the time to really have this conversation. The lore is not set in stone yet.

For sure, it's absolutely the right time to talk about it now.

It seems to me, basically everyone agrees that other races shouldn't have Tulnar features, Dwarves should be shorter than the other races, Elves should have pointier ears than the other races, and orcs should be more orc-ish than the other races.

What this means to me is that we are not discussing whether or not races should have unique features specific to them or not. Rather, we are discussing where that line should be.

Pulling it back from "as per the lore", and working on the assumption that the lore can be molded to fit what ever is decided upon, to me, each race still needs some measure of uniqueness to it.

This does mean that some players may not be able to achieve the aesthetic they are after with some races, but they can with others. However, since the extreme example of this would be not being able to have an elf that looks like a Tulnar, the notion in itself is not an issue.

To me, what is more important is that there are many, many options within each race. If there are enough options, and enough flexibility within those options, it shouldn't matter if one race can't look the same as another race.

Vhaeyne

@Noaani

I agree with everything you said. In this thread and others like it. I have used the phrases like "Within reason" or "reasonable amount of customization". To me, that does not mean giving elves tails or making dwarfs that are taller than humans. It just means allowing for the customization that we are reasonably allowed as humans.

If we could choose our parents, we could choose our skin color(Which is the case in Mortal Online 2). We can dye our hair with any pigment. We can wear contacts of any color and style. This is all reasonable and normal day to day stuff for us as humans. Some of it is not even that modern. This is what I mean by "Reasonable amount of customization".

A side note is that I could see a reality where everyone just plays Tulnar because it has superior customization. This would be a disaster in my opinion. Giving every race that extra bump in customization from allowing more colors would help prevent that.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

A side note is that I could see a reality where everyone just plays Tulnar because it has superior customization. This would be a disaster in my opinion. Giving every race that extra bump in customization from allowing more colors would help prevent that.

I can see this being a possibility.

The Tulnar have a specific visual concept, and Intrepid are likely to go very deep in to that concept. It is possible (probable?) that they wont go as deep in to the uniqueness of the other races.

This absolutely will make Tulnar more popular than they otherwise would be.

To me, this speaks to the value of racial uniqueness - when it is appropriate.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

The Tulnar have a specific visual concept, and Intrepid are likely to go very deep in to that concept. It is possible (probable?) that they wont go as deep in to the uniqueness of the other races.

To me, this looks more like a number of races than a specific style:
tul%27nar1.png

I love elves, but man. Looking at just the proposed silhouettes for Tulnar. It looks like making a Tulnar is already going to be way funner than any other race. When they are that wacky out of the gate. There is no reason why you could not imagine that those silhouettes have fur, scales, and skin of any color.

Maybe, the Tulnar are all just dull shades of gray or something. That might make the other races more competitive from a customization point of view. Still, even if I had my way and an elf could have any skin color and the Tulnar were dull gray colors. I could still see making a Tulnar being funner.

Sathrago

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The Tulnar have a specific visual concept, and Intrepid are likely to go very deep in to that concept. It is possible (probable?) that they wont go as deep in to the uniqueness of the other races.

To me, this looks more like a number of races than a specific style:

I love elves, but man. Looking at just the proposed silhouettes for Tulnar. It looks like making a Tulnar is already going to be way funner than any other race. When they are that wacky out of the gate. There is no reason why you could not imagine that those silhouettes have fur, scales, and skin of any color.

Maybe, the Tulnar are all just dull shades of gray or something. That might make the other races more competitive from a customization point of view. Still, even if I had my way and an elf could have any skin color and the Tulnar were dull gray colors. I could still see making a Tulnar being funner.

lets hope they don't pull a crowfall and bite off more than they can animate causing them to sacrifice so much time and money on something that honestly isn't as important as the core gameplay and world systems.

Vhaeyne

Sathrago wrote: »

lets hope they don't pull a crowfall and bite off more than they can animate causing them to sacrifice so much time and money on something that honestly isn't as important as the core gameplay and world systems.

What is also crazy about that is they put twelve races in the game. Gave none of them any real customization options. Then race locked most of the classes for no fucking reason.

When you load up Crowfall for the first time. You are greeted with a bunch of ugly races that look nothing like their concept art. Then are told you can only pick 3-4 classes per race. Then, you get to pick between four shitty faces and hairstyles. Crowfall has a vanilla WOW tier character creator in 2021. I let it slide years ago when the game was in Alpha thinking it would be improved. Nope.

Here we are present day, and I am struggling to figure what game had the worst lunch? Crowfall or Blessed Unleashed...

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The Tulnar have a specific visual concept, and Intrepid are likely to go very deep in to that concept. It is possible (probable?) that they wont go as deep in to the uniqueness of the other races.

To me, this looks more like a number of races than a specific style:

I love elves, but man. Looking at just the proposed silhouettes for Tulnar. It looks like making a Tulnar is already going to be way funner than any other race. When they are that wacky out of the gate. There is no reason why you could not imagine that those silhouettes have fur, scales, and skin of any color.

Maybe, the Tulnar are all just dull shades of gray or something. That might make the other races more competitive from a customization point of view. Still, even if I had my way and an elf could have any skin color and the Tulnar were dull gray colors. I could still see making a Tulnar being funner.

I agree.

To me, what has the potential to suck about them is if you are in game and come across a Dwarf with a Tulnar tail.

To me, and I suspect to you as well, those tails are specific an unique to Tulnar, and should only be on Tulnar.

To me, the same can be said of Dwarf beards. This doesn't mean only Dwarves should have beards, but it means there should be a specific style of beard that is only available to Dwarves.

With Tulnar and their tails, this is a physical trait - but to Dwarves it is more a cultural/heritage trait. I don't personally see one as taking preference over the other though, and as long as all races have many, many different options that appeal to as wide an audience as possible, I think keeping Dwarf beards for Dwarves and Yulnar tails for Tulnar is a good thing.

JustVine

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The Tulnar have a specific visual concept, and Intrepid are likely to go very deep in to that concept. It is possible (probable?) that they wont go as deep in to the uniqueness of the other races.

To me, this looks more like a number of races than a specific style:

I love elves, but man. Looking at just the proposed silhouettes for Tulnar. It looks like making a Tulnar is already going to be way funner than any other race. When they are that wacky out of the gate. There is no reason why you could not imagine that those silhouettes have fur, scales, and skin of any color.

Maybe, the Tulnar are all just dull shades of gray or something. That might make the other races more competitive from a customization point of view. Still, even if I had my way and an elf could have any skin color and the Tulnar were dull gray colors. I could still see making a Tulnar being funner.

I agree.

To me, what has the potential to suck about them is if you are in game and come across a Dwarf with a Tulnar tail.

To me, and I suspect to you as well, those tails are specific an unique to Tulnar, and should only be on Tulnar.

To me, the same can be said of Dwarf beards. This doesn't mean only Dwarves should have beards, but it means there should be a specific style of beard that is only available to Dwarves.

With Tulnar and their tails, this is a physical trait - but to Dwarves it is more a cultural/heritage trait. I don't personally see one as taking preference over the other though, and as long as all races have many, many different options that appeal to as wide an audience as possible, I think keeping Dwarf beards for Dwarves and Yulnar tails for Tulnar is a good thing.

I personally think facial hair styles (but not top of head hair) are one of the most reasonable differentiators. If you really want a big bushy hirsute pride as an elf buy a fake one in the cash shop, maybe.

I also think general body shape is being underestimated over all. In BDO no matter how hard I want the summoner to look tall I am limited a certain amount and look a bit unnatural at max height. Base shape has a huge effect. Otherwise I would think my Dunir breathern were being unreasonable about their complaints about the current model (which they are not.)

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

I agree.

To me, what has the potential to suck about them is if you are in game and come across a Dwarf with a Tulnar tail.

To me, and I suspect to you as well, those tails are specific an unique to Tulnar, and should only be on Tulnar.

To me, the same can be said of Dwarf beards. This doesn't mean only Dwarves should have beards, but it means there should be a specific style of beard that is only available to Dwarves.

With Tulnar and their tails, this is a physical trait - but to Dwarves it is more a cultural/heritage trait. I don't personally see one as taking preference over the other though, and as long as all races have many, many different options that appeal to as wide an audience as possible, I think keeping Dwarf beards for Dwarves and Yulnar tails for Tulnar is a good thing.

I think the area where we disagree is race specific styles vs race specific features.

The two are not the same thing to me. In most modern fantasy, elves don't have facial hair as a racial feature. Humans and dwarfs will almost always have facial hair as a racial feature. I don't see an issue with a human growing out his beard and braiding it in the style of a dwarf. What is important to me is that a human can do that, while an elf can't because they can't grow facial hair.

I am only advocating for customization in areas where it would be possible for a character to choose to do things with the racial features they would normally have. That is why most of my focus has been on maximizing access to palette options for things like skin/eyes/hair.

Hair is particularly interesting because, for the most part, as long as you have it. You can feasibly straighten it out, curl it, dye it, braid it, shave symbols in it, or whatever you want. So, long as you would normally have it.

There is another point that illustrates how I feel about this and disagree with design choices already present in Ashes. For whatever reason. Steven really likes the archaic idea that armor appearance should change between races. If an Elf kills and Orc and takes their armor. Then wears it. The armor magically changes style to be Orc armor. In my opinion, this is just stupid. A far better system would be for an elf to choose to wear orc armor because he likes the aesthetic. In Ashes this sort of thing is impossible outside of cosmetics.
It is more likely that hairstyles are locked to races in Ashes because of the stupid way armor works. I hate it. To me, that sort of restriction has no place in a modern MMO.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I think the area where we disagree is race specific styles vs race specific features.

Style = heritage trait. Not the best wording on my part.

In the same way you really don't see many Caucasians with cornrows, in my opinion you shouldn't see humans in Verra with Dwarven beard styles.

Not because they can't, but because they generally wouldn't.

I would be in favor of an in game means to gain this kind of thing though, assisting Dwarves in some major way or some such - in the case of a Dwarven style beard.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I think the area where we disagree is race specific styles vs race specific features.

Style = heritage trait.

In the same way you really don't see many Caucasians with cornrows, in my opinion you shouldn't see humans in Verra with Dwarven beard styles.

Not because they can't, but because they generally wouldn't.

I would be in favor of an in game means to gain this kind of thing though, assisting Dwarves in some major way or some such - in the case of a Dwarven style beard.

"don't see many" Those are the keywords.
It is entirely possible for me to go out tomorrow and get cornrows if I wanted them.

We know where we disagree on the hairstyle issue. I would bet money that Intrepid agrees with you when it comes to hairstyles.

I am still hopefully optimistic that they want to give all human skin tones to races that have human skin tones. Maybe close to if not full spectrum colors for hair and eyes.

Noaani

To me, if we don't look to hair styles, there is nothing at all to distinguish a large Dwarf from a small Elf or Human at a distance.

If we had something else, hairstyles could be freed up, imo

That is why I think it is important. Or at least - important adjacent.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

To me, if we don't look to hair styles, there is nothing at all to distinguish a large Dwarf from a small Elf or Human at a distance.

If we had something else, hairstyles could be freed up, imo

That is why I think it is important. Or at least - important adjacent.

Racial silhouettes should be one of those things that distinguishes races, as I have complained about in both the "Dwarfs look bad" and the "Elfs look bad" threads that pop up from time to time.

I really hate to praise WOW for anything at this point, but I will give it credit where it is due. The racial silhouettes in WOW are great. Before, the game had like 20 types of elves playable. You could tell a player's race by its shadow alone. That is peak being able to distinguish races at a distance.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

To me, if we don't look to hair styles, there is nothing at all to distinguish a large Dwarf from a small Elf or Human at a distance.

If we had something else, hairstyles could be freed up, imo

That is why I think it is important. Or at least - important adjacent.

Racial silhouettes should be one of those things that distinguishes races, as I have complained about in both the "Dwarfs look bad" and the "Elfs look bad" threads that pop up from time to time.

I really hate to praise WOW for anything at this point, but I will give it credit where it is due. The racial silhouettes in WOW are great. Before, the game had like 20 types of elves playable. You could tell a player's race by its shadow alone. That is peak being able to distinguish races at a distance.

I'm actually not a fan of the way WoW did it, tbh.

All they did was take one specific feature and exaggerate it. Blood elves had giant ears that pointed up, while night elves had giant ears that point out.

I personally prefer EQ2's races (though am potentially biased here). In a game with essentially three types of humans (humans, big humans, magical humans), four types of elves (high, wood, dark and half), three types of little people (dwarf, halfling and gnome), two types of fairy (emo and happy), a race based on lizards, a race based on frogs, two races based on dragons, a race based on cats, a race based on rats, as well as trolls, ogres and vampires, no one complains if a given race doesn't have a given hairstyle or skin color.

JustVine

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

To me, if we don't look to hair styles, there is nothing at all to distinguish a large Dwarf from a small Elf or Human at a distance.

If we had something else, hairstyles could be freed up, imo

That is why I think it is important. Or at least - important adjacent.

Racial silhouettes should be one of those things that distinguishes races, as I have complained about in both the "Dwarfs look bad" and the "Elfs look bad" threads that pop up from time to time.

I really hate to praise WOW for anything at this point, but I will give it credit where it is due. The racial silhouettes in WOW are great. Before, the game had like 20 types of elves playable. You could tell a player's race by its shadow alone. That is peak being able to distinguish races at a distance.

Right?

My biggest problem with the 'just choose the 'right' race to the lore then' augment is that the silhouette should have a disproportionate impact over every other trait. It is to me th free single biggest current room for improvement on races in Ashes right now.

AND there are literal game mechanics tied to race.

Limiting hair style, skin color, and to a very limited degree face shape (jaw line cheek bones and brow should have some limitations but not a ton imo, silhouette matters more here) should not be limited when game mechanics matter depending on my choice. Anyone against race or gender locked class should agree as it is, pretty much the same argument.

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