Heavy, leather, robe, jewelry. Physical defence. Magic defence. Epics? Meaningful gearing vs pokemon

If any of these words switched something in you, let's discuss and provide suggestions to IS in order for gearing up to be more about making meaningful choices and less about chance (fire water plant, what armor do you wear, what armor does the opponent wear).

In ESO they did this stupid thing, in which heavy armor takes more dmg from magic, robe takes more dmg from physical weapons and leather is in between. Same thing was happening in AAU. It was the most annoying thing to know that if you wore heavy armor you 100% would have some disadvantage vs magic.
Lazy design, lame pokemon balancing attempt. Zero player agency.

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JustVine

George Black wrote: »

How is it NOT having the offensive stat selection of leather when you choose to wear plate "NO tradeoffs"?

How is it NOT having the status resistances of heavy when you choose to wear leather "NO tradeoffs"?

Right but it's unclear to me what 'meaningful choices' means to you. A choice is meaningful when there isn't a singular optimal answer. Games usually do this by not giving you access to every possible good stat for your class, tl giving people different styles and capabilities within their chosen classes and abilities.

However I don't want to make the assumption you are asking to have no weaknesses. Because such a gear system usually leads to homogeneous gear and very simplified cookie cutter builds and I know you dislike such homogenization.

But you /seem/ to be asking for a gear system in which you don't 'have' to have a trade off for your specific play style. You /appear/ to want to wear both physical and magical defense. But it's less apparent to me what you 'wont have'.

Therefore I ask you more directly, what weakness are you ok with having in this proposed system. It sounds a lot like 'none I think kit should matter more' but that usually leads to homogeneous gear. I want to make sure I am not misreading your claim. You giving me an example of something you are comfortable with not having stat wise on your physical attacker style builds would help quickly clarify a lot of my possible misunderstandings about your proposal.

George_Black

Read again. Carefully.
No need for forced weaknesses.
Only build choices.
If you add to your heavy armor HP shield defence and stun resist, you miss out on HP regen, bleed resist, cd reduction etc etc etc.

You also miss on all the agressive options of Leather armor.

You also miss on all the magic options related to robe.

Why is it so hard ro understand that forced pokemon balance is not necessary for equipment?

I put a whole section saying that armor should give physical defence, jewels should give magic defence, and we are still trying to find out what the drawbacks should be?
They should NOT BE messing around with random chance who your opponent is.

JustVine

George Black wrote: »

Read again. Carefully.
No need for forced weaknesses.
Only build choices.
If you add to your heavy armor HP shield defence and stun resist, you miss out on HP regen, bleed resist, cd reduction etc etc etc.

You also miss on all the agressive options of Leather armor.

You also miss on all the magic options related to robe.

Why is it so hard ro understand that forced pokemon balance is not necessary for equipment?

I put a whole section saying that armor should give physical defence, jewels should give magic defence, and we are still trying to find out what the drawbacks should be?
They should NOT BE messing around with random chance who your opponent is.

Oh I didn't think those would be important stats in the game (bleed and hp regen) but yeah I could see a game made by Intrepid where a big chunk of damage could come from bleed and therefore need a bunch of hp regen.

George_Black

I dont know what stats we will have.
But I think it's a bad design to give artificial drawbacks.

In eso a heavy armor set could give you tons of agressive stats, which was wrong.
It is also wrong that heavy armors take more dmg from magic attacks.

A heavy armor should be defensive with less avenues for damage. It most certainly should not be instagimped vs mages. What for?

Same thing for robes in eso. They had the weakest defences and on top of that they took EXTRA dmg from physical attacks. What for?

Noaani

George Black wrote: »

I put a whole section saying that armor should give physical defence, jewels should give magic defence, and we are still trying to find out what the drawbacks should be?

With this paradigm, what is to stop all players just using heavy armor?

The idea of the game is that all classes can use all gear, which means you should be able to get heavy armor with caster stats and effects.

If I can get the same - or close to the same - stats and effects on heavy armor as a caster, why would I use anything else?

If you start to limit what armor types can have each passive you are suggesting, all that is doing is pigeonholing each class in to specific gear choices.

While I understand the apprehension if you haven't seen the system at work (in the exact same way someone that hasn't seen the corruption system at work may be apprehensive about it), take it from someone that spent years in the gear system in question; if the goal is to diversify valid gear choice, the system Intrepid are looking at using works exceptionally well.

And that is coming from someone that is happy to take any opportunity to rip in to Intrepid right now.

Sathrago

What if heavy armor just gave more constitution and less offensive stats?

George_Black

Why would everybody would use heavy armor if leather gave you crit modifiers cd reductions mp regen bonus to damage?
Wtf?

Who told you that heavy armpr should give you casting speed, magic cd reduction max MP critical magic etc etc?
Read the posts.

Noaani

George Black wrote: »

Why would everybody ise heavy armor if leather gave you crit modifiers cd reductions mp regen bonus to damage?
Wtf?

Who told you that heavy armpr should give you casting speed, magic cd reduction max MP critical magic etc etc?
Read the posts.

I understand what it is you are asking for, I am just saying why what you are asking for is in direct contrast to something Intrepid have specifically said they want.

You are right that if leather armor gave crit modifiers, cd reductions, mp regen or a bonus to damage, no one other than tanks would use heavy armor.

That is the problem.

Intrepid want all gear to be an option for all classes. Maybe not the first choice option for all situations - but an option that is situationally beneficial.

If you put all of those bonuses on leather armor, then non-leather armor becomes a non-option for a good many classes - and that is not what Intrepid want.

Vhaeyne

Going to weigh in as for whatever solution allows for the most customization. I don't care too much for the specifics, that is for the game designers to figure out. There are plenty of examples of RPGs with good systems that can be used as a starting point.

What is most important to me is that crafted gear has value. The idea that you could use crafting to make specific gear for custom character builds is my jam. From what I have been led to believe, the crafting and character build system is expected to have enough depth to allow for some crazy niche builds. When you can come up with an off the wall build and actually gear it up. That is good. A lot of games have good customization and no gear to make some builds useable. I am hoping Ashes don't have this problem.

This is what I want.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

A lot of games have good customization and no gear to make some builds useable.

This is what the Archeage system avoids.

For the longest time, I was playing a half plate, half cloth wearing caster with a sword and shield, as that was the best gear to suit my build.

It worked damn fine too.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

A lot of games have good customization and no gear to make some builds useable.

This is what the Archeage system avoids.

For the longest time, I was playing a half plate, half cloth wearing caster with a sword and shield, as that was the best gear to suit my build.

It worked damn fine too.

There was a lot I liked about ArcheAge. Just not enough to keep me in it. p2w really sacks my motivation to play anything.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

A lot of games have good customization and no gear to make some builds useable.

This is what the Archeage system avoids.

For the longest time, I was playing a half plate, half cloth wearing caster with a sword and shield, as that was the best gear to suit my build.

It worked damn fine too.

There was a lot I liked about ArcheAge. Just not enough to keep me in it. p2w really sacks my motivation to play anything.

The only good thing about P2W was beating people that were spending 4 figures a month on the game, while spending only $15 myself.

Sathrago

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

A lot of games have good customization and no gear to make some builds useable.

This is what the Archeage system avoids.

For the longest time, I was playing a half plate, half cloth wearing caster with a sword and shield, as that was the best gear to suit my build.

It worked damn fine too.

There was a lot I liked about ArcheAge. Just not enough to keep me in it. p2w really sacks my motivation to play anything.

The only good thing about P2W was beating people that were spending 4 figures a month on the game, while spending only $15 myself.

I remember watching this guy make a video where he went into an arena with average gear on, got killed, then during the setup for the next round he pulls out his credit card, throws it at the screen, and auto equips his P2W gear.

The difference in power was just plain stupid. He rolled the guy he was fighting for the next three fights, winning.

Noaani

Sathrago wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

A lot of games have good customization and no gear to make some builds useable.

This is what the Archeage system avoids.

For the longest time, I was playing a half plate, half cloth wearing caster with a sword and shield, as that was the best gear to suit my build.

It worked damn fine too.

There was a lot I liked about ArcheAge. Just not enough to keep me in it. p2w really sacks my motivation to play anything.

The only good thing about P2W was beating people that were spending 4 figures a month on the game, while spending only $15 myself.

I remember watching this guy make a video where he went into an arena with average gear on, got killed, then during the setup for the next round he pulls out his credit card, throws it at the screen, and auto equips his P2W gear.

The difference in power was just plain stupid. He rolled the guy he was fighting for the next three fights, winning.

You couldn't buy gear directly in Archeage.

Dont believe everything you see on the Internet.

Sathrago

Noaani wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

A lot of games have good customization and no gear to make some builds useable.

This is what the Archeage system avoids.

For the longest time, I was playing a half plate, half cloth wearing caster with a sword and shield, as that was the best gear to suit my build.

It worked damn fine too.

There was a lot I liked about ArcheAge. Just not enough to keep me in it. p2w really sacks my motivation to play anything.

The only good thing about P2W was beating people that were spending 4 figures a month on the game, while spending only $15 myself.

I remember watching this guy make a video where he went into an arena with average gear on, got killed, then during the setup for the next round he pulls out his credit card, throws it at the screen, and auto equips his P2W gear.

The difference in power was just plain stupid. He rolled the guy he was fighting for the next three fights, winning.

You couldn't buy gear directly in Archeage.

Dont believe everything you see on the Internet.

I didn't feel like going into detail on how one goes about using money to secure better gear in archeage.

Noaani

Sathrago wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

A lot of games have good customization and no gear to make some builds useable.

This is what the Archeage system avoids.

For the longest time, I was playing a half plate, half cloth wearing caster with a sword and shield, as that was the best gear to suit my build.

It worked damn fine too.

There was a lot I liked about ArcheAge. Just not enough to keep me in it. p2w really sacks my motivation to play anything.

The only good thing about P2W was beating people that were spending 4 figures a month on the game, while spending only $15 myself.

I remember watching this guy make a video where he went into an arena with average gear on, got killed, then during the setup for the next round he pulls out his credit card, throws it at the screen, and auto equips his P2W gear.

The difference in power was just plain stupid. He rolled the guy he was fighting for the next three fights, winning.

You couldn't buy gear directly in Archeage.

Dont believe everything you see on the Internet.

I didn't feel like going into detail on how one goes about using money to secure better gear in archeage.

I'm not going in to detail, I'm just saying that what you described is simply not possible in Archeage.

Even if it was, in the time it would take to process a transaction, your arena opponent would have reached you and killed you where you stand anyway.

It's confirmation bias. People know that Archeage is pay to win, and they don't like that. Someone makes a video exaggerating the pay to win aspects of the game past what the game allows for, and to many people it simply confirms the bias they already have.

I'm sure that video got that person a lot of views though.

Sathrago

Noaani wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

A lot of games have good customization and no gear to make some builds useable.

This is what the Archeage system avoids.

For the longest time, I was playing a half plate, half cloth wearing caster with a sword and shield, as that was the best gear to suit my build.

It worked damn fine too.

There was a lot I liked about ArcheAge. Just not enough to keep me in it. p2w really sacks my motivation to play anything.

The only good thing about P2W was beating people that were spending 4 figures a month on the game, while spending only $15 myself.

I remember watching this guy make a video where he went into an arena with average gear on, got killed, then during the setup for the next round he pulls out his credit card, throws it at the screen, and auto equips his P2W gear.

The difference in power was just plain stupid. He rolled the guy he was fighting for the next three fights, winning.

You couldn't buy gear directly in Archeage.

Dont believe everything you see on the Internet.

I didn't feel like going into detail on how one goes about using money to secure better gear in archeage.

I'm not going in to detail, I'm just saying that what you described is simply not possible in Archeage.

Even if it was, in the time it would take to process a transaction, your arena opponent would have reached you and killed you where you stand anyway.

It's confirmation bias. People know that Archeage is pay to win, and they don't like that. Someone makes a video exaggerating the pay to win aspects of the game past what the game allows for, and to many people it simply confirms the bias they already have.

I'm sure that video got that person a lot of views though.

Sigh.

SirChancelot

I feel like the different armor type should only be tied to various defense stats and then mobility.

When you start adding specific stats to specific types you're basically saying that as a mage you should wear cloth. My understanding of the game is that they're trying to avoid casting people as certain requirements or builds...
Also the way you have it set up in the OP would make it difficult for the hybrid damage dealers. Would the spellsword end up up wearing a lot of cloth and leather all mismatched trying to get the right stats?

George_Black

That's not what I am saying.
In L2 mages wore heavy and leather.

SirChancelot

George Black wrote: »

Leather armor should always have less physical defence than heavy. Players should find stats on leather armors like critical modifiers, physical ability cooldown reductions, snare/slow resistances, evasion bonus OR roll dodge cost reductions. Definitely offensive boosts, rarely MP related stats, rarely casting speed bonuses and rarely magic ability cooldown reductions.

Robe armors should always have the least amount of physical defence. The additional stats that players should find on robe armors should be around MP, mp regen, casting speed bonuses, magic ability cooldown reductions, magic attack bonuses, magic critical modifiers.

That may not be what you want it to be. L2 may have had mages where all sorts of stuff... But if you put these kind of bonuses on cloth gear mages are definitely going to gravitate towards cloth (which is fine by me I feel like a mage should be wearing cloth armor) but, as I said I thought ashes was trying to avoid anything that was going to feel like you had to choose something

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