"True Hybrid Combat" and Root Motion/Animation Locked Melee Weapon Combat Suggestions

I know that Steven has said that they are leaning more towards Split Body Melee Combat in the recent Development Update this past August, but I feel the unpolished version of the Root Motion Combat left a bad impression during the Alpha 1 testing. I also understand that Intrepid is currently more focused on making some of the core aspects of the game function properly. There are also aspects, such as servers and ping, that may also influence certain design decisions when making an MMORPG, but I hope that some of the talents in Intrepid's team that came from Planetside 2 can tackle those issues well. However, if Intrepid has the time and resources to reconsider their decisions regarding Melee Combat I would like to provide some references of games that do Root Motion Melee Combat well (Regardless of genre) and my take on "True Hybrid Combat".

I want to preface by saying that I have very limited experience and knowledge of the MMORPG genre, and seeing Intrepid's transparency about their game development, compared to other developers, made me want to broaden my gaming horizons with their game. I've only played ESO until about Lvl 20 with an Xbox controller on PC and stopped because their melee combat left me "unexcited and unengaged". I come from a history of playing Tekken 7, Dragonball FighterZ, Super Smash Bros. Ultimate "competitively" with friends (Items off, legal stages), Monster Hunter Rise, Dark Souls 3, Gears of War, Halo, and League of Legends to name a few...

So, a recent game called Naraka Bladepoint is a Melee Combat focused Battle Royale that has pretty solid Root Motion Melee Combat (Haven't played yet, only watched videos). Usually the Battle Royale genre is Shooter Combat focused but Naraka Bladepoint managed to break the mold and create a different and well received game among the genre (For now because it's currently $20 and has micro-transactions). I believe that AoC can "break the mold" in the MMORPG genre by improving their Root Motion Melee Combat alongside their Node System and Large Scale Seige Modes. In my opinion, I feel like the best way to truly live up to their Hybrid Combat design philosophy is to allow both polished versions of Split Body Melee Combat and Root Motion Melee Combat in tandem with Tab Target and Action Combat Mode. Intrepid has partially achieved this by allowing players to toggle between the A/B Melee Combat in the Alpha 1 testing, so why not build on that? I know what I'm asking may be a bit too much of the team, but maybe some of the community and I are willing to "Theory Craft" how this would work and be balanced to a degree.

Excuse me if the video comes off a bit bias, but I want people to focus on how Root Motion Melee Combat works in Naraka Bladepoint. The game uses both the LMB and RMB to perform different combos which may clash class with AoC's current design, but I feel like we can discuss that conflict in the comments.

An older game that is an "MMORPG" that has incredible Root Motion Melee Combat is Vindictus (Also haven't played it yet. It's Free to Play so try it out yourselves if you have the time and space. Can be very lewd with cosmetics, beware of micro-transactions!). The video references I'm about to provide shows multiple weapon classes so it can be a long watch. Feel free to skip through parts of the videos to get a rough idea of how melee combat works.
NOTE!!!: Some of the cosmetics can be NSFW so Click At Your Own Discretion! especially This Link! The reason for the second video is to show how even Ranged Weapon classes can be done well with Root Motion Combat with a somewhat "Tab Target" feeling combat mode.

In my opinion another thing to make combat in general feel more fun and engaging is to make enemy A.i. more dynamic during combat which is discussed in this thread. In short, I also want enemies to move around and be tactical during combat, not just stand in one place and pivoting on rotation while attacking the one player who is "Aggro'd" or "Threatening" (pardon my terminology). I think a good enemy design is not just something that has a lot of health and deals a lot of damage, but one that can challenge the player by ALSO challenging the mechanics built into the system. A great example is in Monster Hunter Rise when they implemented the Wire Bug mechanic. It's super fun to zip around the monsters and find new ways to battle them, but it made combat too "easy and somewhat boring" after a while to veterans of the series and even to some new players. Part of the reason being is that the older monsters didn't upgrade their combat capabilities to the new Wire Bug mechanic given to the players. Newer monsters to the series (Magnamalo, Narawa, Ibushi, and Almudron-debatable) felt more fun and engaging because they were designed to challenge that very new mechanic, but only a handful of monsters did that.

So with all that being said, I'm not asking for AoC's combat to be exactly like the games I've referenced, but I think it would be a good start for Intrepid to be able to implement certain aspects of these games into their own. I feel like good Root Motion Melee Combat can be another form of "Rotation" for players that like to main in melee weapon combat with "Combos" seen in Fighting Games. I know that Intrepid and other people in the community don't want AoC to be a "Fighting Game", but it gives other players that do like those kinds of games a choice and reason to have fun and be engaged with the melee combat system if they ever decide to try out Ashes of Creation. Ashes of Creation isn't going to be for everyone, but I just wanted to share my thoughts to hopefully get as many people possible to enjoy the game

Thank you for listening to my TED Talk. Let me know what you guys think!

TLDR: Me greedy needy and like to bonk things with weapon in interesting ways. Please help

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maouw

Could you boil this down to more specific terms and especially why you like them?

At the moment, Ashes wants 20+ abilities on hotbars - How do you imagine this works with the double Mouse Button combat? (And why do you specifically like the double mouse button combat?)

I don't think there's any reason to stick to only split-body combat, mixed is more interesting - but I wonder if there are technical reasons why they're making this a decision point?
Also, what would make you decide whether a skill should be split-body or root-motion?

To shortcut some previous discussions, things like " I believe that AoC can "break the mold" in the MMORPG genre by..." are usually met with:

Ashes is already breaking the mold with its augment system
Ashes isn't trying to re-invent the wheel when it comes to combat
Ashes wants to maintain the trinity combat roles (tank, dps, support)

There's concern that a lot of the games you've played (mostly single-player PvP) don't have much thought put into team combat roles, an aspect of combat that distinguishes MMORPGs from other genres.
Hence the large discussions about zerging becoming a problem if you straight up import something like Naraka's combat into open-world MMORPGs (which is one of the biggest complaints against BDO - as satisfying as their combat system was).

You might want to quickly disengage from those aspects of the conversation and focus on the root-motion vs split-body aspect.

Ugoogee

From what I know about how abilities work in MMORPGs people can keybind abilities from 1-0 on the top of the keyboard or a mouse that has numbers built into it. Also I think most games allow players to keybind additional abilities or other actions to most of the keys on the keyboard that are free from things like the Map, Inventory etc...

For using double Mouse Combat I understand that when in Tab Target Mode the RMB is used for moving the camera and there may be some conflicts with my design preferences. If there are other uses for the RMB besides that, then blame my ignorance of the genre and I'll study up more on that. I guess I was too focused on the Action Combat Mode having a reticle that moves the camera with mouse movement and that would free up the RMB for an extra Melee Attack.

The reason why I would prefer double mouse button combat for Melee Attacks is because it gives more combo varieties for weapons, instead of just using one button to do the same attacks over and over while players wait for their ability cooldowns to be done. If both mouse buttons were used for Melee Combat then weapon combos can range from AAA, BBB, AAB, BBA, ABA, BAB. Each attack could be charged when either button is held and possibly be weaved into weapon combos depending on how the weapon works (I know that charge attacks could still be used with one melee attack button, but it still seems limiting to me). Each attack could have a different attack animation, speed and effect depending on the combo sequence.

I've actually advocated for all abilities to be available in both Tab Target and Action Mode but with adjusted properties and damage in other forum topics. I know that asking for that can be conflicting with Ashes' design decisions but It would be nice to see it happen. As for what I think which skills should be Split Body or Root Motion, I'll start by saying that ranged weapon's basic attacks like wands, bows, spellbook, orb etc. are fine the way they are currently with Split Body. Those should have the freedom of movement seen in Third Person Shooters. As for abilities, the Prismatic Beam seems like a good example of an ability that requires Root Motion because of its power and effects. Depending on the Hard CC ability I might lean more into Root Motion, but Soft CCs could remain in Split Body and reduced movement speed depending on its strength. Abilities that require channeling may have to be Root Motion or Split Body with reduced movement speed depending on it's power and effects. As for weapon skills, some exceptions for Split Body could be something like spinning with the weapon but with reduced movement speed depending on the weapon. Weapon skills that require the player to leap to a location to deal damage would have to be Root Motion.

I still appreciate those aspects that you listed on how Ashes can "break the mold", but when it comes to "Ashes isn't trying to re-invent the wheel when it comes to combat" I feel like adding an extra button for Melee Attacks isn't really interfering with Ashes' combat design/philosophy.

I'm not asking to implement the same exact Rock Paper Scissors combat mechanics seen in Naraka Bladepoint like armored attacks beating light attacks, parries beating armored attacks and light attacks beating parries, but I was mostly trying to have readers understand the feel and look of Root Motion Melee Combat when done properly on Mouse and Keyboard (Although now that I type this, I feel like the Rock Paper Scissors mechanic could still work in Ashes given the fact that there are 60 players in a game of Naraka Bleadepoint. Still not as massive as the 200 vs 200 large scale battles Ashes aims for, but I feel like 60 is still large enough to argue for the mechanic to work in Ashes to help mitigate zerging).

I have played a good amount of League of Legends to understand team combat roles. Still not a good excuse for me to compare a 5 vs 5 MOBA to an MMORPG though. I'll update my post for my list of games played, thanks!

I do agree that I may be biting off more than I can chew by adding mechanics to a genre I have little to no experience in, but I thought it would be nice to share my thoughts.

Sorry for the late response...

maouw

Yeah no worries, you and I have lots in common - just trying to quickly cut out some of the places where this discussion can get bogged down in... stuff (hehe). I personally think League's 5v5 is one of the BEST examples of how team-combat roles can play out, especially considering that we want to balance around 8v8. But that's for another time. And 1v1 combat systems can at LEAST tell us about in-the-moment (micro-level) combat (just not so much about macro-level combat for MMORPGs)

anyways...

It might be worth submitting a question in the next QnA asking "Is there a technical reason we can't have both root-motion and split-body skills - for heavier and lighter attacks respectively?"

The A/B mouse button system sounds like it might work really well with the weapon skill tree, separating it from the class abilities. But yeah, for people who prefer tab target - will they need a secondary set of hotbars or where will they find that extra button?

There are certainly people who have been advocating for RPS combat (aka yomi), but this conflicted with people who have slower reaction times and want combat to have less mechanical skill.

Finally, I need to express a cynical realization that a lot of the people backing this project have been stuck in MMO hell (since the last decade or so of MMOs have been stale and disappointing) and don't have much experience outside the genre - hence they can't comprehend that certain gaming standards have moved forward. It's like trying to convince grandma that she doesn't need a landline anymore - she doesn't get it.

Ugoogee

Yea I feel like that would be a great question to ask! I might reframe it by saying "Is there a technical reason we can't have both root-motion and split-body melee attacks seen in the A/B melee combat mode tested in Alpha 1 - for heavier and lighter attacks respectively?" I find the word "skill" to be a bit more synonymous with "ability" because I find those words to be a bit more "special" than basic attacks. Hope you don't mind.

If I had to think of a solution off the top of my head for Tab Target players, I would say having both "Q" and "E" keys each be a separate melee attack so the RMB can still be used traditionally in function. This however may only benefit players that use Root Motion in tandem because they only have to focus on two keys (because of the various forward trajectories of melee attacks) and freely use the RMB to aim melee attacks. The detriment of this solution is to players who use Split Body in tandem will have to do a bit of "finger gymnastics" with the potential of having to press three keys at the same time for diagonal movement (because Split Body only moves the player when they press movement keys). I'll have to download and play a bit of FF14 to understand and support my thoughts on Tab Target a bit better.

Yomi is great concept that I never knew existed but preferred/did in games naturally that was well discussed in the "Tab Target VS Action Combat Philosophy" thread. Again I'll have to play a traditional Tab Target game to understand their positions to formulate a better way of balancing my design preferences in their favor for Ashes.

Lmao I agree. If Ashes turns out the way I want melee combat to be designed, then I'll suck it up and learn Mouse and Keyboard cus I've always been biased to playing games on a controller (Hopefully they implement full controller support without compromising their core design philosophies to that decision, but that is topic for another thread to greed for

)

Azherae

Double Mouse Button is not required.

All requirements are achievable with just the one button, and this would get less resistance.

Anyone who cared about Split Body was already willing to hold a direction while attacking.

SirChancelot

My biggest concern against root motion was placement while tanking. I'm cool with holding a direction for my attacks, but I hated the idea of continually moving forward every time I attacked. Especially since in a lot of games you usually kite and walk backwards.
The split body stuff looked much nicer to me

Azherae

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

My biggest concern against root motion was placement while tanking. I'm cool with holding a direction for my attacks, but I hated the idea of continually moving forward every time I attacked. Especially since in a lot of games you usually kite and walk backwards.
The split body stuff looked much nicer to me

I have only bitter answers to this.

I am glad for you, that you are able to appreciate how much nicer it looks.

@Ugoogee - you know what will happen if you engage on this, but I am not requesting that you don't. Data is data...

SirChancelot

Azherae wrote: »

I have only bitter answers to this.

I am glad for you, that you are able to appreciate how much nicer it looks.

Let me specify, looks nicer to work with. I say that because I didn't pay to Alpha1, so I don't know how either feels yet.

Dygz

maouw wrote: »

Finally, I need to express a cynical realization that a lot of the people backing this project have been stuck in MMO hell (since the last decade or so of MMOs have been stale and disappointing) and don't have much experience outside the genre - hence they can't comprehend that certain gaming standards have moved forward. It's like trying to convince grandma that she doesn't need a landline anymore - she doesn't get it.

It's not like that at all.
Different genres are different genres.
Just because you CAN make a phone super tiny, doesn't mean that's the best thing to do with a phone.

maouw

I hear ya @Dygz

The goal is to find a place that everyone can meet at.

Dygz

That is the dev goal - which is why they are trying to include Action Combat in the first place.
I think we can expect the devs to continue to try movement options from a variety of other games.
All playstyles will have to make some type of compromise in Ashes.

Ugoogee

@SirChancelot11 I also haven't played the Alpha 1 and have only seen footage from various Youtubers. I understand your concerns for kiting while tanking but my post also tried to advocate for keeping Split Body Melee Combat for those who prefer it as well. I also touched upon more "Dynamic Enemy A.i" to make combat a bit more "engaging".

So from videos that I've seen in WoW and FF14 the main goal of the Tank is generally hold enemy Aggro/Threat, soak up damage, keep the enemy in one place, and sometimes kiting to allow the rest of the party to deal damage. My proposal for "Dynamic Enemy A.i" is to program enemies to have more built in Root Motion Action Combat/Abilites and less Tab Target based combat. I think this would still allow the same concept of Tanking but done a bit differently. Instead of having the enemy attacks focused only on the Tank when Aggro'd/Threatened, the enemy attacks would focus around the Tank.

The enemy could have a range of leaping/lunging/jumping/charging/dash attacks that would aim at a Tank's current position. Those attacks can be telegraphed either with an AoE cone or visually through the attack animation and those attacks can visually miss the Tank and cause the enemy to be at a different location. The enemy could also stride or dodge around before making an attack in place at the Tank's current position. The way a Tank would try to interact in these scenarios is to understand the move set of the enemy, and lead the enemy to a desired location based on its attack.

The best way I can try to describe this visually is to imagine the monster in the video was mostly focusing on the one player who is a "Tank" instead of randomly attacking other players. Also other party members should also be aware of the enemy move set so they can also position and act accordingly based on the Tank's kiting capabilities. Disregard the player hit-stun/knockback seen when taking damage. Rough example of Tanking with Dynamic Enemy A.i.

Azherae

Ugoogee wrote: »

@SirChancelot11 I also haven't played the Alpha 1 and have only seen footage from various Youtubers. I understand your concerns for kiting while tanking but my post also tried to advocate for keeping Split Body Melee Combat for those who prefer it as well. I also touched upon more "Dynamic Enemy A.i" to make combat a bit more "engaging".

So from videos that I've seen in WoW and FF14 the main goal of the Tank is generally hold enemy Aggro/Threat, soak up damage, keep the enemy in one place, and sometimes kiting to allow the rest of the party to deal damage. My proposal for "Dynamic Enemy A.i" is to program enemies to have more built in Root Motion Action Combat/Abilites and less Tab Target based combat. I think this would still allow the same concept of Tanking but done a bit differently. Instead of having the enemy attacks focused only on the Tank when Aggro'd/Threatened, the enemy attacks would focus around the Tank.

The enemy could have a range of leaping/lunging/jumping/charging/dash attacks that would aim at a Tank's current position. Those attacks can be telegraphed either with an AoE cone or visually through the attack animation and those attacks can visually miss the Tank and cause the enemy to be at a different location. The enemy could also stride or dodge around before making an attack in place at the Tank's current position. The way a Tank would try to interact in these scenarios is to understand the move set of the enemy, and lead the enemy to a desired location based on its attack.

The best way I can try to describe this visually is to imagine the monster in the video was mostly focusing on the one player who is a "Tank" instead of randomly attacking other players. Also other party members should also be aware of the enemy move set so they can also position and act accordingly based on the Tank's kiting capabilities. Disregard the player hit-stun/knockback seen when taking damage. Rough example of Tanking with Dynamic Enemy A.i.

I was reminded due to 'shaking off the rust' in a 2 person Tigrex Hunt today, of this example.

That video isn't as helpful though, because it doesn't show the full extent of how it works well enough. Tanking in Monster Hunter World is a whole 'system' that I feel like I understand (because I'm the tank in my group normally), which you can use to actually tank, but it doesn't convert well to discussions in an MMO situation without a full explanation of it, so you might not want to use that as even a passing reference (and definitely not Tigrex, since, while Tigrex is really easy to tank, it's really really mobile even for action game standards).

Ugoogee

@Azherae Tigrex may be an extreme example of what I'm looking for in enemy combat design but, I still at least would like to see some enemy bosses designed similar to Tigrex (possibly toned down to Ashes' mechanics) at higher end dungeons, raids and world bosses at higher levels. If I had to choose a monster from the Monster Hunter series then maybe Goss Harag would be a better reference?

The way that enemy combat is designed for regular mobs seen in Tera and New World seem a bit more in line towards my preferences of Dynamic Enemy A.i. while still being an MMORPG. I would still keep what I said for how I think they should be roughly designed, but I'll also add the player that is being focused by the enemy, like the Tank, would have something like a red circular indicator underneath their character to show players who would be the main target of enemy attacks.

Another extreme example of a boss with Dynamic Enemy A.i in a group setting would be from Vindictus. There isn't any traditional Tanking in the game but keep in mind my design preferences for anyone watching this video. Feel free to skim through this as well:

https://youtu.be/wEeOSmAUUxA

Azherae

Ugoogee wrote: »

@Azherae Tigrex may be an extreme example of what I'm looking for in enemy combat design but, I still at least would like to see some enemy bosses designed similar to Tigrex (possibly toned down to Ashes' mechanics) at higher end dungeons, raids and world bosses at higher levels. If I had to choose a monster from the Monster Hunter series then maybe Goss Harag would be a better reference?

The way that enemy combat is designed for regular mobs seen in Tera and New World seem a bit more in line towards my preferences of Dynamic Enemy A.i. while still being an MMORPG. I would still keep what I said for how I think they should be roughly designed, but I'll also add the player that is being focused by the enemy, like the Tank, would have something like a red circular indicator underneath their character to show players who would be the main target of enemy attacks.

Another extreme example of a boss with Dynamic Enemy A.i in a group setting would be from Vindictus. There isn't any traditional Tanking in the game but keep in mind my design preferences for anyone watching this video. Feel free to skim through this as well:

https://youtu.be/wEeOSmAUUxA

I'll ask a different question that's much more specific. What's your reaction speed?

If below 195 ms, choose a weapon in Ashes, just whatever you think you'd use, and then tell me what you expect the animation timing to be.
If below 220 ms, all I need to know is what weapon you'd want to use.
If around the 'standard' 240-255ms, tell me what type of telegraph you'd be looking for on the enemy type you're talking about.
If on average your reaction speed is above 255ms, then I just need that datapoint itself.

This is so that I know how to contextualize something in the Alpha for you without writing another essay.

Ugoogee

I'm around 233 ms, the telegraphs would be a mix of auditory and a small wind up animation of the attack. In Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch would be a telegraph that's on the slower side for me while his forward smash would be a telegraph that's on the faster side

Azherae

Ok, so here's the video you need (I thought there was a separate one from Intrepid but I think that's only through their Twitter so let's rely on this so you can use the YouTube functions).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3WrvtnSMiM

Make sure it's on 720p or higher or measuring the frames will be wrong. This is, ofc, not even Alpha, moreso Dev showcase, so we're not talking about what the game will be like, only what you would like. Timestamp to start is 33:41. Pause it there and step through using the . key (that's for most people, I think?)

We're counting frame data, but again, not because it has anything to do with the final game, just a part of the concept relative to you.

The first movement made by that elder has a 50+ frame telegraph. You see the purple hand, then you have nearly a full second to dodge it. This is homing, so let's assume there's an Active Block. This telegraph is so long that if you were swinging in either system when it started, you'd be able to see it, stop pressing your attack button for 90% of your attacks, and block at the last moment, but you couldn't necessarily 'sneak in one more attack'.

Quite a few of the player abilities have similar timings and windup, at this time, at least the Cleric ones.

The ground burst that follows, which I guess is a constant passive from the mob, has a '3 frame startup' if you're standing in the wrong place which seems to be 'behind and to the mob's right. But if you are strafing to that side as Steven is, you still only have 20f or so to do anything about it. It does less damage. I'm trying to keep this short so let's jump straight to it.

In a Root motion game, the mob can 'protect itself' through the timings of its attacks. You know 'if I launch this attack I can't move out of the way of this incoming attack' so you choose between your DPS/effect proc and maintaining your HP. Mastery will get you to the "Monster Hunter Speedrunner" state, where your motion and timing choices let you weave between opponent attacks. This is what I personally consider a 'high skill ceiling' since it is 'per enemy' and adds longevity, blah blah.

The games you show don't actually show this. They're about 'movement', which could give players the impression that the wish of an Action Combat player is 'movement to reposition relative to the enemy', and for that, Split Body would obviously seem superior. With the current design shown for just that mob, it is superior, both from the design standpoint and from the feeling standpoint.

What you want is a different type of game. The two aren't compatible. If there is a heavily reduced DPS tradeoff due to being able to move out of the way of a 20f telegraph while still doing your DPS (and technically the closer you are to the mob the easier this is), the rest of the game's systems have to change to accommodate this because the HP of mobs needs to be higher and they will act more like damage sponges that then threaten the player's HP rather than the player's DPS capability or their HP. This can be resolved by pushback mechanics and big AoEs, but those are 'timing' related, they're not 'observation-reaction' related, at the telegraph levels and type we see.

Because you have to telegraph 'big powerful AoE' pretty hard just for fairness to those who don't have the 15f reaction time. You'd be comfortable at 20f startup because as you noted, Falcon's Forward Smash is a 'telegraph' to you at 19f startup.

For a lot of people, 20f is not a 'telegraph', it's 'guesswork'.And for those people, this won't necessarily change even if they get used to the monster, or get used to the game, at least not very much. Even I can only shave off 2f when I switch my 'mental pathway' when doing that Reaction speed test (switching from 'I see green, I should click the mouse' to 'Chun-Li EX Spinning Bird Kick Reversal timing' will change the pathway used by my brain and increase the reaction speed on average).

I think the 'gains' you make from pathway experience is 3f max, which is a lot, but for many people, that's bringing them to where you are now.

I probably should stop here, before I go into deeper stuff. Short version is that you can't make both available because enemy damage and telegraph style need to be tuned toward one or the other, and in Split-Body, if you aren't literally gating content behind the reaction speed of your Tank and sometimes Healer or whoever is doing CC, you can't make it so that Root Motion players can even survive. In order to challenge Split Body players, the game would have to be so punishing to Root Motion players that they'd just not bother, it would no longer be fun.

Glad to keep discussing it with you, as I think I've noted somewhere, we design this type of game too, so having more perspectives to throw into the ol' number cruncher on my side, even if/especially if Intrepid has no need for it, can only be good, right? Maybe by the time the next 'taking player Feedback on combat' MMO rolls around we'd have a whole demo ready.

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