Combat target audience

I love everything you guys are doing. I respect your latitude in developing these systems, and I implore you to design a competative/ extremely high quality/ vivid action combat system. (I'm not discluding tab targeting when I speak about this, just sharing some sentiment regarding action combat)

As a 22y/o who's played a variety of games from the age of 6, I lean towards competative FPS (Cod, Valorant)(with experience in mmos too e.g. Wizard101, pure tab targetting)
I think your combat system should appeal to the younger generation. I think it would be the most engaging form of combat, in terms of retention, vivid engagement, and innovation for this industry. People want to live this game; to live out fantasies that they can only see in animes (sword art online) or other fantasy/action movies, etc.
The last 10 years of gaming has denied us that for the most part, even with all the technological advancements, due to greed/misplaced priorities and lack of passion/innovation.

Take Valorant and Fornite for example(Even though Fortnite is run by a board of suits) Valorant has 16m active monthly users and growing. Fortnite had 80m monthly active users in 2020 (Most users 20 and younger) During covid, Valorant and Fortnite (Exluding Call of Duty*) was about the only oasis/ lake in this desert of a gaming market. With Valorant, whats being fed is high quality competative gameplay with innovation and passion behind the development that millions are enjoying, and have a strong taste for.. incomparable to the LOW quality other FPS/games that are hardly/never innovating, since their end goal is money.
* I didn't mention COD because it's casual, I also put 5000 hours in it as a kid. Plus, they HARDLY innovate. COD is like the fast food of gaming too. I digress.

I hope you design your combat system well. And consider a target audience of gamers that have been raised off of competative, high mechanical skill cielings of FPS (A LARGE percentage of young kids/ teens)The HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of gamers coming from Fortnite and Valorant, and COD. If you design a combat system built with competition, innovation, vivid engagement, and even ESPORTS in mind, you can see the same results as Fortnite, Valorant and Call of Duty in terms of retention and engagement!

Thanks for your consideration and ALL your HARD WORK!!

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

maouw

As a 22 y/o what are your thoughts about tab target combat?
Do you think it's possible that it can be made interesting enough for your generation?

Kr0_Val

I'm not saying go all in on action. Tab targeting has its place, It's just a matter of balance, and ultimately depends on the types of skills right? I would just think of it being a supplement, and used for proper spells is the way to go. With the main style action combat. Like, I think a lot of people would agree combat is a sort of dancing with your opponent. The more latitude in your movement/ combat, the higher the skill ceiling and eloquence of the battle. And the end result being the better party on top with more satisfaction to your results, and if you lose, you have that much more of a drive to get better.

The more you water down such an important aspect of a game, the less engaging IMO. But, my frame of reference is limited to so much, so.. I think the balance they're trying to achieve should be good. I just hope it leans toward action combat, since tab targeting seems to be the result of inferior/ older technology. And not as innovative as what you can accomplish with today's technology.

*Redacted/removed text due to updated understanding*
" I think Ashes considers an AOE to be tab targeting. Even without having a specific target selected so.. "

JustVine

CosmaAglow wrote: »

I'm not saying go all in on action. Tab targeting has its place, It's just a matter of balance, and ultimately depends on the types of skills right? I think Ashes considers an AOE to be tab targeting. Even without having a specific target selected so.. I would just think of it being a supplement, and used for proper spells is the way to go. With the main style action combat. Like, I think a lot of people would agree combat is a sort of dancing with your opponent. The more latitude in your movement/ combat, the higher the skill ceiling and eloquence of the battle. And the end result being the better party on top with more satisfaction to your results, and if you lose, you have that much more of a drive to get better.

The more you water down such an important aspect of a game, the less engaging IMO. But, my frame of reference is limited to so much, so.. I think the balance they're trying to achieve should be good. I just hope it leans toward action combat, since tab targeting seems to be the result of inferior/ older technology. And not as innovative as what you can accomplish with today's technology.

Your perspective about aoe is interesting to me. I got the very strong impression from Steven that the aoe attacks were one of the few things he considered action elements and will point to them as 'look at how hybrd we are omgz'. Which is.... An 'interesting' conception of what hybrid means, but that's a separate conversation.

So yeah, genuinely curious what leads you to think/feel it is part of the tab system or what about it feels tab like. Also what sorts of systems would you like to see relative to the 'dance' you were describing (the fgc calls its footsies if you want a singular word.)

You don't have to feel defensive towards Maow and I or think we are judging you. We were having a discussion awhile back on what your generation of gamer (both of us are half a gen older) would find appealing and unappealing about tab targeting vs action combat. So we are extremely intellectually curious lol. Sorry if that comes off strong but hey I figured you'd rather appreciate being included in on the subtext.

maouw

It be like:

Kr0_Val

I don't get the impression at all that you're judging. This conversation is great for making the game better. But to answer your question about my feeling aoe is tab target, it appears my memory served me incorrectly, as I was trying to recall how they viewed it. I didn't really think about it. You mentioned Steven said it's action combat, so that clears it up for me. Just a mistake

Further on action combat.. I just want responsive, LOW PING <40 (128 tick servers) where your input is near instant, or as fast as possible. I'm a competative person. I want the combat system/ pvp to be developed for ESPORTS potential, even if it doesn't reach that. Just needs to feel fluid and have a high skill ceiling. If you watch fortnite, you'll see how its the current pinnacle of mechanical ability game wise. Obviously AOC have to reach a large audience, I understand that.(Yes I'm talking about you boomers

But the larger breadth of connectivity you have with your player, the more immersed you can become. And by that I mean, compare MMOS where half of your screen filled with 50 or so skill icons, where you're just spamming them more or less. (I think this is bad/old/lazy design), how immersed are you really?.. To 15 or 20 max buttons/keys you'll need to press, that give you a larger variety in action combat, than tab targeting would. Think achieving a mechanical difference that sets you above other players in pvp, to where you are so good you can dance around them mechanically, and figuratively speaking too, because of the skill ceiling. Where a level lvl15 say, could battle a low lvl 20 player, and beat him(or come close) if the lvl 15 is mechaniclly better. (Within reason, obv gear and stats come into play)

Honestly I'll probably be fine with whatever system they have. It's just, I know the human brain is a powerhouse, and theres always so much potential that usually is killed by lack of passion/ money as motivation with other companies. I'm not a game designer, so this is off the wall, but a combat system desiring to fulfil standards of "Next Gen" should take at LEAST 6 months to develop by Sr. Devs. Thats just the baseline IMO. Maybe I'm just too optimistic. But humans are capable of more than they know. I say, expand your frame of reference, stretch the "limits" of what's considered possible. If this is done right, longevity is at hand

SirChancelot

I think my concern for the combat system comes more for people trying to simplify or optimize it when you're comparing tab Target to action combat would you rather have an ability that automatically hits with tab Target or a skill shot that you can miss with. People might say tab Target is boring compared to action combat but most people will just choose the tab Target because you can't miss. I am curious to see how their hybrid system ends up falling on the scale.

I feel like this happens a lot in newer games. people come up with a certain method that's just more efficient at hitting targets and it becomes the meta style of play. I could easily see ashes falling into the trap of a greatsword axe or a halberd having a massive weapon Arc be the easier weapon to play to where people trying to use daggers very small range to them being more difficult to use. Like using the potion launcher in apoc, it was hard for me to miss with a magical grenade launcher.

Dygz

Ashes is an MMORPG; not an MMOFPS.

Kr0_Val

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes is an MMORPG; not an MMOFPS.

Sure guy, but the discussion is on action combat/ hybrid system. You can have a high quality, competative hybrid combat system, without it being a first person shooter. I'm not saying make it a FPS. I'm considering things like anime, (sword art online), GUNZ, action fantasy movies, manga/ manhwa(SOLO Leveling) etc.. as references too.

Jonta

Being old I like the tab target the action cross hair style is just to much work for me (ye git guud old man ) I want to play and have fun and not just give up because that 18 year old has better eye to hand coordination than this 50 plus arthritic bound body of mine ..

Us older gamers and casual players will be the bread and butter of subscribers ..

Kr0_Val

JONTA wrote: »

Being old I like the tab target the action cross hair style is just to much work for me (ye git guud old man ) I want to play and have fun and not just give up because that 18 year old has better eye to hand coordination than this 50 plus arthritic bound body of mine ..

Us older gamers and casual players will be the bread and butter of subscribers ..

I appreciate that take man, I'd probably feel the same in your shoes. I hope they can balance the hybrid system well for everyones enjoyment

JustVine

@CosmaAglow I highly suggest you block Dygz. He is a well known.... Not technically a troll half the time but he famously and invariably derails conversations like with that line just now. Not worth discussing with on this particular topic.

Distraction aside I agree with a lot of what you said. I will try to avoid echo chambering too much. I think your point about number of skills speaks volumes to generational experience. Many older gamers here have experience with games that have many. This is partially due to a bunch of small things. Some limitations, aome tab target combat related. I don't expect Ashes to go beyond your comfort zone due to past remand,from Steven and I think this is good for streamability/searching videos of people playing. I expect prerecorded narrative driven creators to be more successful than streaming but having a clean screen economy caters to viewabilty in either case by a wide margin.

This is technically why I like rooted combat. In this system you have more nuanced moves with different meanings without 'adding yet another ability to the hotbar count.' I grew up with high ability count games but have definitely appreciated various action combat games progression of design on this front. Steven said they are leaning split body (so no real nuance in directionality), but the combo system at the very least sounds like its functioning off a similar 'hidden from view depth' principle.

As for your esports remark, like I said I agree with a lot you said, and have a detailed perspective as to why that is optimal design, but it will trigger a lot of dumb derailing if I explain, so for now I will hold off on it.

Is there any type of 'footsies' you'd like to see in Ashes? For example the 'dance' in bdo is write a bit different from say GW2 which itself is entirely different fron Archage and yet differing again from WoW. Don't have to use mmo examples when answering me either. In fact I encourage you use examples of whatever is easiest for you for my and Maow's data gathering curiosity

Any features indirectly combat related you would like to see (death mechanics, fortifications, gear choices etc)?

mcstackerson

JONTA wrote: »

Us older gamers and casual players will be the bread and butter of subscribers ..

Looking at the popularity of games like fortnight, minecraft, cod, overwatch, etc. i think more people have experience with aiming than tab. It's also more intuitive since you just have to look at your target to attack instead of having to look at them and select them.

Kr0_Val

JustVine wrote: »

@CosmaAglow I highly suggest you block Dygz. He is a well known.... Not technically a troll half the time but he famously and invariably derails conversations like with that line just now. Not worth discussing with on this particular topic.

Distraction aside I agree with a lot of what you said. I will try to avoid echo chambering too much. I think your point about number of skills speaks volumes to generational experience. Many older gamers here have experience with games that have many. This is partially due to a bunch of small things. Some limitations, aome tab target combat related. I don't expect Ashes to go beyond your comfort zone due to past remand,from Steven and I think this is good for streamability/searching videos of people playing. I expect prerecorded narrative driven creators to be more successful than streaming but having a clean screen economy caters to viewabilty in either case by a wide margin.

This is technically why I like rooted combat. In this system you have more nuanced moves with different meanings without 'adding yet another ability to the hotbar count.' I grew up with high ability count games but have definitely appreciated various action combat games progression of design on this front. Steven said they are leaning split body (so no real nuance in directionality), but the combo system at the very least sounds like its functioning off a similar 'hidden from view depth' principle.

As for your esports remark, like I said I agree with a lot you said, and have a detailed perspective as to why that is optimal design, but it will trigger a lot of dumb derailing if I explain, so for now I will hold off on it.

Is there any type of 'footsies' you'd like to see in Ashes? For example the 'dance' in bdo is write a bit different from say GW2 which itself is entirely different fron Archage and yet differing again from WoW. Don't have to use mmo examples when answering me either. In fact I encourage you use examples of whatever is easiest for you for my and Maow's data gathering curiosity

Any features indirectly combat related you would like to see (death mechanics, fortifications, gear choices etc)?

Well, I don't want to be too much a portion of design consideration(given my inexperience), as I believe a larger scope of input is better, also, as much as I love mmos, or the concept of them, I haven't put as much time into them as a genre like I have fps, so I can't reference them the same as you haha. But thanks for the questions, I appreciate them.

I haven't delved too deep into consideration of things like rooted combat vs split body. I'd have to do more research. At face value I'd say split body sounds better, but that take is fairly limited of consideration/information input.

I also only really mentioned "dancing" in a figurative sense, referencing mechanical ability; But I like japanese animation. If you've ever seen anime, the battles are pretty dope. Check out a youtube short on them or something.. also look up "This game could've been the best esport ever" GUNZ. you could watch 5m of it, or read the subheading and get the gist it. Those are probably the best examples I could give. Or even fortnite, the way people can mechanically outmaneuver, or manipulate the battle to their advantage is exemplary game design innovation incomparable to any video game in general since the birth of them really.

So, however an mmorpg like ashes could implement an action combat system that brings out the best in players mechanically and competatively speaking, I'd love to see it. I wanna feel epic when doing a dungeon, not like its a chore, but like I'm actually there

Azherae

CosmaAglow wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

@CosmaAglow I highly suggest you block Dygz. He is a well known.... Not technically a troll half the time but he famously and invariably derails conversations like with that line just now. Not worth discussing with on this particular topic.

Distraction aside I agree with a lot of what you said. I will try to avoid echo chambering too much. I think your point about number of skills speaks volumes to generational experience. Many older gamers here have experience with games that have many. This is partially due to a bunch of small things. Some limitations, aome tab target combat related. I don't expect Ashes to go beyond your comfort zone due to past remand,from Steven and I think this is good for streamability/searching videos of people playing. I expect prerecorded narrative driven creators to be more successful than streaming but having a clean screen economy caters to viewabilty in either case by a wide margin.

This is technically why I like rooted combat. In this system you have more nuanced moves with different meanings without 'adding yet another ability to the hotbar count.' I grew up with high ability count games but have definitely appreciated various action combat games progression of design on this front. Steven said they are leaning split body (so no real nuance in directionality), but the combo system at the very least sounds like its functioning off a similar 'hidden from view depth' principle.

As for your esports remark, like I said I agree with a lot you said, and have a detailed perspective as to why that is optimal design, but it will trigger a lot of dumb derailing if I explain, so for now I will hold off on it.

Is there any type of 'footsies' you'd like to see in Ashes? For example the 'dance' in bdo is write a bit different from say GW2 which itself is entirely different fron Archage and yet differing again from WoW. Don't have to use mmo examples when answering me either. In fact I encourage you use examples of whatever is easiest for you for my and Maow's data gathering curiosity

Any features indirectly combat related you would like to see (death mechanics, fortifications, gear choices etc)?

Well, I don't want to be too much a portion of design consideration(given my inexperience), as I believe a larger scope of input is better, also, as much as I love mmos, or the concept of them, I haven't put as much time into them as a genre like I have fps, so I can't reference them the same as you haha. But thanks for the questions, I appreciate them.

I haven't delved too deep into consideration of things like rooted combat vs split body. I'd have to do more research. At face value I'd say split body sounds better, but that take is fairly limited of consideration/information input.

I also only really mentioned "dancing" in a figurative sense, referencing mechanical ability; But I like japanese animation. If you've ever seen anime, the battles are pretty dope. Check out a youtube short on them or something.. also look up "This game could've been the best esport ever" GUNZ. you could watch 5m of it, or read the subheading and get the gist it. Those are probably the best examples I could give. Or even fortnite, the way people can mechanically outmaneuver, or manipulate the battle to their advantage is exemplary game design innovation incomparable to any video game in general since the birth of them really.

So, however an mmorpg like ashes could implement an action combat system that brings out the best in players mechanically and competatively speaking, I'd love to see it. I wanna feel epic when doing a dungeon, not like its a chore, but like I'm actually there

Data is collected @JustVine.

Hi @CosmaAglow, I hope you get what you're hoping for.

What's your reaction time?

Ravno

JONTA wrote: »

Being old I like the tab target the action cross hair style is just to much work for me (ye git guud old man ) I want to play and have fun and not just give up because that 18 year old has better eye to hand coordination than this 50 plus arthritic bound body of mine ..

Us older gamers and casual players will be the bread and butter of subscribers ..

Same here. I vastly prefer tab target.

Dygz

CosmaAglow wrote: »

Sure guy, but the discussion is on action combat/ hybrid system. You can have a high quality, competative hybrid combat system, without it being a first person shooter. I'm not saying make it a FPS. I'm considering things like anime, (sword art online), GUNZ, action fantasy movies, manga/ manhwa(SOLO Leveling) etc.. as references too.

Yep. And that still sounds like an MMOFPS.
The devs are already trying for a high quality hybrid combat system - let's see if they can deliver something you can be content with.

Atama

You can do a successful combat system without tab target and yet not turning it into an FPS.

Neverwinter Online, Elder Scrolls Online, DC Universe Online, and Secret World Legends are four MMORPGs I played pretty extensively that required aiming and moving around constantly. No sitting there, hitting tab, and then pressing a key to watch an animation. It's doable.

What I've played in Alpha 1 so far seems a lot closer to a traditional MMORPG for combat so far. But I don't think we've seen the real combat system yet. I also didn't think it was boring; now, I'm an older fella (my gaming started on Atari and an Apple IIe if that tells you anything) so I may have more tolerance for that sort of thing, so a younger person might have been bored.

I'm looking forward to seeing a more fleshed-out combat system in Alpha 2 and maybe we'll have something to actually judge by then. Or maybe not, we might not see the real thing until Beta. I honestly don't know.

Kr0_Val

Atama wrote: »

You can do a successful combat system without tab target and yet not turning it into an FPS.

Neverwinter Online, Elder Scrolls Online, DC Universe Online, and Secret World Legends are four MMORPGs I played pretty extensively that required aiming and moving around constantly. No sitting there, hitting tab, and then pressing a key to watch an animation. It's doable.

What I've played in Alpha 1 so far seems a lot closer to a traditional MMORPG for combat so far. But I don't think we've seen the real combat system yet. I also didn't think it was boring; now, I'm an older fella (my gaming started on Atari and an Apple IIe if that tells you anything) so I may have more tolerance for that sort of thing, so a younger person might have been bored.

I'm looking forward to seeing a more fleshed-out combat system in Alpha 2 and maybe we'll have something to actually judge by then. Or maybe not, we might not see the real thing until Beta. I honestly don't know.

Yeah I loved elder scrolls combat! I'd be satisfied with that combat tbh.

Only issue I disliked with that skyrim was the fact that the world scaled based on your level.

Ravno

Well, i guess this kind of things really depends of players.
I vastly prefer classic tab target for range spell, and i absolutely don't want to have a action based system for farming mob all day long.
I don't mind some action based system for some spell, that could be rewarded with a slightly longer range for exemple, or for area spell. Maybe you can make some class more action based than other, like archery for exemple.

The thing i think action based system could shine is for melee.
I really like the system that was used in the first version of Savage 2 fps :

It was a rock/sicor/paper system, where you could either attack, interupt or parry.

Atama

The "attack/block/parry" system is exactly what was in DCUO. They even make you practice it in the tutorial at the beginning of the game when you're escaping Brainiac's ship, by making you defeat enemies using the trilogy. It wasn't that exciting in my opinion, it was kind of boring and I ended up ignoring it and just blasted everything with the most powerful attacks I had, along with debuffs, DoTs, and stuns.

Child Item