Forums are unfriendly to visually impaired people!

I want to address something that makes really hard to use the forums. I am a visually impaired person, in the terms that i can not distinguish certain colors very well. The light grey on white text field is unreadable for me. And i have to highlight the text to even read what I've typed. Please address this!

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McMackMuck

If you select any posted text it is highlighted as white on blue, which you say is easier to read.

If you use CTRL and mouse wheel then you can zoom in (and out) on the webpage window, making the font size larger, if that helps.

Is there an option to use text-to-speech software if you cut and paste text into that application?

Kesthely

Its not that there aren't any solutions, but why would you default to a color combination that's hard to read for some people. The text field is blatantly using the same color as the overall text setting. you can easily chance the CSS of the text field to a more visible color without having to do more then one line of CSS in coding your website

In your CSS file just type:
input[type=text] {
color: black;
}

daveywavey

They're pretty unfriendly to most people, but that's just cos of the other people on the forum...

daveywavey

Does selecting a light/dark theme in your web browser help at all?

Kesthely

I tried both light and dark, the Css is just unfriendly in that regard. like i said earlier there using the same overal tet color for input fields as well.

JustVine

Kesthely wrote: »

I tried both light and dark, the Css is just unfriendly in that regard. like i said earlier there using the same overal tet color for input fields as well.

The mobile version of the website has slightly less features but is black on white. You can always switch to the desktop version for those other features temporarily with very little issue (it's a button on my mobile mozilla). This is the life I live. Typing is obviously harder on phone even with a Bluetooth keyboard sometimes available to me but I manage.

I offer this not as a 'accept this lesser option.' Only as a 'this may not have been an obvious choice to you if you never been on the mobile version of the site.' Especially since the issue with typing is solved with save draft festure (ie. Read on phone respond on com.)

The forum needs a lot of little features still and this is one of them. Hope this helps and that they hear your needs in the future.

Yuyukoyay

I'd look for a third party solution to it. There might be some software to add color blind modes to things that aren't.

Kesthely

Guys its not about the solutions, i can solve the issue with a special browser that can override the site settings for visual impaired people. But what i'm talking about is for the benefit of the developers. A website is one of the first media that people check if there intrested in a product (ashes) if they have any questions about it, and the way to gather information is difficult, because of small things like the font color, how can a potential new player be confident that the product is going to be great?

Visually impaired people already have an added difficulty to playing games. Be it color blind, color depth blind, unable to see details, or having trouble reading the font. There are quests that will be harder to read, and quest items / gathering items harder to see. Some quess will take longer, others are outright onduable. Gathering takes longer, and you miss more nodes, or other people spot them first.

I hope its just an oversight. As i said, the font color is the same as the normal text one. its quite easy for them or their outsourced web agency to change the color. if you want to remain thematic, they use different shades of gray for the Ash feel of it. This lightest one is just to hard to read, Its simple to choose a thematic darker grey thats easier to read for people. Its those tiny details that bring confidence in a game.

The developers ask for feedback on the game how to improve it. The website is an integral part of the game, because thats where all of the questions, guild recruitment, build discussions, class dicussions, downtime announcements etc are going to be posted. a small inconveniance for some, might be a hurdle to others to not pick up the game. Because if you can't direct your questions in a normal manner to the dev's or community, how can you ascertain of the game is something you want or able to play? If the forums are already difficult to navigate due to your impairment, how can you ascertain if the game itself will be playable for your impairment.

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

Guys its not about the solutions, i can solve the issue with a special browser that can override the site settings for visual impaired people.

Ok, so, if solutions are easily found, people that suffer from this probably already have them at their fingertips.

Due to this, Intrepid may as well just design the website the way they want.

For a website, this holds true 100%.

It does not hold true for the game, however, and Intrepid have said they plan to have multiple options for color blind people in game.

If you have a solution at hand, it is not worth Intrepid putting any time and effort in to altering the website away from something they already like (assuming they purposefully made the choices they made).

Again, your point holds true in game - where these solutions are not as easily available. However, on a website where all the people that suffer from all the different types of visual imparities can each arrive at their own solution that works well for them on each and every website - that is a much better solution than asking each and every website to cater to each and every visual imparity.

Kesthely

Noaani wrote: »

Kesthely wrote: »

Guys its not about the solutions, i can solve the issue with a special browser that can override the site settings for visual impaired people.

Ok, so, if solutions are easily found, people that suffer from this probably already have them at their fingertips.

The solution is not "easy' or cheap, but in my specific case its mandatory. I'm not going to advise people to spend annual 500 dollars just to be able to view certain websites if its not job related to do so. The browser needs to read the Css, and hack into it, to override the settings. In many cases where backgrounds are pictures, or have integrated design fetures like, WebGL it doesn't even work properly. It slows a site to a crawl, and is often more trouble then its worth.

Also i've already given in one of my previous posts what the problem is, and what they can do to fix it. Its not hours of development time, its opening your CSS file and adding 3 or 4 lines. Also i'm assuming that the website is outsourced, or in the hands of marketing or community management.

if your speaking of thematicly and design wise, the textfield input is also not coherent with the thematic feel of the site. Except for the textfield, white is never used, instead this lightest shade of grey is used. My recommendation would be to make the background color this light grey and the text the ashen grey that outlines the background color of the forums. That way you have a mirror of the input / output and will have a visually working and thematic layout.

The forums itself seem to be neglected of proper scaling for readability. It seems only tested for standard settings, if you have to scale the letter type bigger then the overlay pushes over eachother and becomes difficult to read. That one however takes a lot more time and effort to solve. They seem to use a fixed spacing there instead of relative, but i'm assumeing this is due to the forum module that they use. solving that is deep diving into the forum structure, calling the correct css / div, and then finding a solution, which often requires multiple tresholds and browser / device dependant coding.

And its not like this is a local website of the candy store around to corner, made on a saturday afternoon by two students for 20 bucks. Its a website from a development studio,

I've been in web design for 7 years, and an addition 2 years of swift and 2 years of unity programming. And i can tell you this. While on the surface web design looks a lot easier, it has all the same dept and procedural steps required to make a good website as it is to make a good app or game.

While intrepid haven't done much marketing, they have done a lot of communicating, and for a company that profiles itself to be that gaming company for gamers by gamers, communicating this hopefully "oversight" or otherwise "design flaw" is fitting. Afterall if we can't be critical about a feature, choice, or part of the game we are in disagreement with, what use is it to ask for our communication, if they only want to hear virtual pats on the back.

I've been articulate with a problem that i discovered with something to do with the game. I've pinpointed the cause, i even offered a solution. Its up to the developers now to adress this, and determine how much a priority this is.

daveywavey

I agree that in-game support is important, whether that takes the form of allowing you to choose your own colour theme, setting text and background colouring, etc, or something else entirely.

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

Also i've already given in one of my previous posts what the problem is, and what they can do to fix it.

No, you've given one way they can assist you with your specific visual impairment. One which you already have a solution to.

There are many other visual impairments, some that are color based, some that are not. Are Intrepid to cater to all of them?

I've been in web design for 7 years, and an addition 2 years of swift and 2 years of unity programming. And i can tell you this. While on the surface web design looks a lot easier, it has all the same dept and procedural steps required to make a good website as it is to make a good app or game.

How many websites that you have created would you say are friendly towards literally every type of vision imparement?

That said, with this background, you surely must be aware that there are indeed free to use tools to assist people such as yourself. Most tools that you need to pay for in fact have a free version if you are not using it for anything work related.

Afterall if we can't be critical about a feature, choice, or part of the game we are in disagreement with, what use is it to ask for our communication, if they only want to hear virtual pats on the back.

Who said you can't be critical?

The thing with you being able to be critical of Intrepids decisions is that it means others - such as myself - are then free to be critical of your criticism. You can not claim to want to be able to criticize others, and then not accept criticism yourself. You are then free in turn to criticize that criticism of your criticism of Intrepids decision, but not in a way that suggests that criticism of your criticism is unwarranted. Criticism of ones criticism is exactly as valid and warranted as criticism in the first instance.

I want to point out again that if you were talking about something in game - where only Intrepid can fix it - I'd 100% agree with you. They should provide as many tools as they possibly can to assist ass many people as they can to play the game as well as they can.

However, since there are people that make these tools for general web use - there really is no point in Intrepid re-inventing the wheel here. Rather than making changes to suit anyone that comes along with any visual impairment (I'm sure you agree that they shouldn't only address some), they should leave it to those people to have their own solution that works for them.

I know I do.

Kesthely

Noaani wrote: »

There are many other visual impairments, some that are color based, some that are not. Are Intrepid to cater to all of them?

No they do not, however there are many solutions to most visually impaired problems, with lots of tools to assit in that. However the coding of this particular form format, is hard coded, wich means that most of them don't work.

Noaani wrote: »

How many websites that you have created would you say are friendly towards literally every type of vision imparement?

For all impairments? probably none, but i can say that all the websites we've completed have never gotten feedback of (any part of it) being unreadable

Noaani wrote: »

I want to point out again that if you were talking about something in game - where only Intrepid can fix it - I'd 100% agree with you.

You might want to check, this is the intrepids webstie not the wiki, or other fan based forums. So yes Intrepid has 100% control over it, either by creating it themselves or outsourcing it. They get to decide. I'm pointing out what MY problem is, and how they could adress it.

Noaani wrote: »

However, since there are people that make these tools for general web use - there really is no point in Intrepid re-inventing the wheel here. Rather than making changes to suit anyone that comes along with any visual impairment (I'm sure you agree that they shouldn't only address some), they should leave it to those people to have their own solution that works for them.

As i said before, they use fixed values, wich makes tools for adjusting increadibly difficult. and with poor results at best.

I'm bringing this up not because i can't find a solution, but because it creates an unnessicary hurdle for some people to participate in the forums, which makes it more difficult to voice opinions, post stories, reply to guild / community posts or ask questions.

Noaani wrote: »

You seem to criticise not because your adamant for or against it, but because you do not need a change for it. I hope for you that you never develop an illness that imparts you difficulties with any aspect of your life. And if you do, then i hope, that you do not encounter someone that goes like "Uh i don't have a problem with this, so shut up about it already" Because thats how your post comes across, degrading, highstrung and unsympathetic.

You seem to confuse critism with beligerent.

bigepeen

So this is what it looks like on my phone. I'm using a built-in browser option to automatically convert every webpage from a dark text on light background, to a light text on dark background.

It seems very readable to me. High-contrast and light background can give you eye strain and headaches, so I actually prefer the base css that they're using, but that's just my opinion. I don't try to force my low-contrast dark background preference on every site I visit, although that would be the ideal solution I guess.

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

For all impairments? probably none, but i can say that all the websites we've completed have never gotten feedback of (any part of it) being unreadable

Probably because most people that have issues like this realize that they are issues specific to them, not issues shared with the general public - and as such they take matters in to their own hands to make things work for themselves.

Most people are fairly reasonable in this regard.

Most people.

You might want to check, this is the intrepids webstie not the wiki, or other fan based forums. So yes Intrepid has 100% control over it, either by creating it themselves or outsourcing it. They get to decide. I'm pointing out what MY problem is, and how they could adress it.

Indeed it is their website.

I never said Intrepid do not have 100% control over it, I said that in game, ONLY Intrepid have control over it. With a website, individual users have control - and most exercise that control to best suit themselves.

I'm bringing this up not because i can't find a solution, but because it creates an unnessicary hurdle for some people to participate in the forums

No, it creates a situation in which these people put to use solutions that they have already worked out for themselves.

It isn't as if someone would just come to this website and suddenly realize they have a visual impairment. Someone that has an issue with this website would almost definitely have solutions for themselves that are similar to what ever it is that you have - because of course they do.

That barrier you talk about isn't on this website, and so it isn't Intrepid that need to provide the solution. That barrier is coming from that specific user, and so is on them to find a solution.

You seem to confuse critism with beligerent.

This isn't belligerent.

If you can't answer the simple question "why do people with this impairment not have their own solution worked out for their specific issue?", then that is something to criticize, which is what I am doing here.

You have your solution worked out. I have mine worked out. Everyone seems to have their solution worked out.

What is the issue here?

Gizban

Kesthely wrote: »

Guys its not about the solutions, i can solve the issue with a special browser that can override the site settings for visual impaired people. But what i'm talking about is for the benefit of the developers. A website is one of the first media that people check if there intrested in a product (ashes) if they have any questions about it, and the way to gather information is difficult, because of small things like the font color, how can a potential new player be confident that the product is going to be great?

Visually impaired people already have an added difficulty to playing games. Be it color blind, color depth blind, unable to see details, or having trouble reading the font. There are quests that will be harder to read, and quest items / gathering items harder to see. Some quess will take longer, others are outright onduable. Gathering takes longer, and you miss more nodes, or other people spot them first.

I hope its just an oversight. As i said, the font color is the same as the normal text one. its quite easy for them or their outsourced web agency to change the color. if you want to remain thematic, they use different shades of gray for the Ash feel of it. This lightest one is just to hard to read, Its simple to choose a thematic darker grey thats easier to read for people. Its those tiny details that bring confidence in a game.

The developers ask for feedback on the game how to improve it. The website is an integral part of the game, because thats where all of the questions, guild recruitment, build discussions, class dicussions, downtime announcements etc are going to be posted. a small inconveniance for some, might be a hurdle to others to not pick up the game. Because if you can't direct your questions in a normal manner to the dev's or community, how can you ascertain of the game is something you want or able to play? If the forums are already difficult to navigate due to your impairment, how can you ascertain if the game itself will be playable for your impairment.

If its 'not about the solution', which also happens to be 'solved'.... whats the issue?

You hope their not addressing an issue that is already 'solved' for visually impaired people isn't an oversight. Eh?

Sounds like their isn't anything to address since the problem wasn't there to begin with.

I'm visually impaired. I don't expect the world to cater to me, I'll make do.

JustVine

Well I am glad you are such a 'tough guy' Pyreal but some people have higher barriers than you. Not all impairments are the same. Op's complaint, and in my opinion, desire for an easier fix are not unreasonable. All Intrepid has to do is have a button to remove their background or change it to something plain and change the universal text color. A trivial fix for most skilled web developers.

There are many other visual impairments, some that are color based, some that are not. Are Intrepid to cater to all of them?

Actually yes Noaani, that is one of the responsibilities of a web developer. It is why they get paid more money than just buying some prefab template from -insert youtube sponsored web builder here-. It is absolutely a professional standard of web design.

Probably because most people that have issues like this realize that they are issues specific to them, not issues shared with the general public - and as such they take matters in to their own hands to make things work for themselves.

Noaani's argument is flawed in a way that distracts a reasonable person from the real problem if they are less informed. The problem with their argument is that not every tool that a person with an impairment uses can 'solve' a website that isn't standard. Which AoC's definitely is.

For an example related to AoC though not connected to the official site, the aoc wiki commonly has footnotes with PICTURES from discord. This is unfriendly to blind people who rely on a text reader. This is solved in a number of ways by a web dev or by people just also writing a text version of the picture. But there isn't really another way around the problem. You have to have some other human read it or type it for you.

I bring up this example not because it is applicable to this specific instance of the complaint in the op, but because Noaani made a more general argument against web developers of companies making an effort to make their site accessible to everyone 'because those with impairments already have solutions.' Some problems can't be solved or are extremely odious to the impaired to resolve with their solution.

In summary, you don't know op's full situation as you don't experience their impairment in the same way. Op has brought up various common tools that don't work adequately relative to their issue. And even if you knew the full extent of their situation that doesn't mean there isn't someone out there with the same problem but no programming knowledge or other tool for a nonstandard website. And since Pyreal made it clear it is ok to make appeals to emotion... Are you guys going to tell these arguments to a 14 year old fan of the game with an impairment who wants to interact with the community?

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

Actually yes Noaani, that is one of the responsibilities of a web developer. It is why they get paid more money than just buying some prefab template from -insert youtube sponsored web builder here-. It is absolutely a professional standard of web design.

Catering to all visual impairments is simply not possible, as a number of them have solutions that are mutually exclusive.

This is *WHY* individual solutions exist - and most of those solutions work just fine here.

Sure, some don't, but the solutions that people with actual impairments use (as opposed to people with a preference that want an easy fix for that preference) work just fine.

JustVine wrote: »

And even if you knew the full extent of their situation that doesn't mean there isn't someone out there with the same problem but no programming knowledge or other tool for a nonstandard website. And since Pyreal made it clear it is ok to make appeals to emotion... Are you guys going to tell these arguments to a 14 year old fan of the game with an impairment who wants to interact with the community?

If there is a 14 year old with a visual impairment that comes along to these forums and has issues, my response to them would be to find a community of people online with a similar impairment and talk to them about solutions - because that 14 year old will need to come up with solutions for them self anyway.

I'm curious as to what your reply to a 14 year old with this issue would be, and how useful that reply would actually be to that 14 year old.

You can either be pragmatic, or you can demand that others be pragmatic for you. It should come ass no surprise to anyone on these forums which of the two I would tend towards.

daveywavey

JustVine wrote: »

This is unfriendly to blind people who rely on a text reader.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but how many blind people do you think are going to be playing Ashes?

Kesthely

daveywavey wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

This is unfriendly to blind people who rely on a text reader.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but how many blind people do you think are going to be playing Ashes?

Returning the ball to you. How many blind parents are there that have children that want to play this game that have no visual impairment? How can they ascertain if the game is suited for their children?

Because you don't have a problem with it, doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

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