Concern upon release.

My worst nightmare would be that there will be to many cosmetic items for sale and mounts for sale. this is not including holiday specials. That's different I get it once a year fun little mount or hat here and there for like 5 bucks or something, but If they release mounts like that cancer causing game from blizzard and sell them for like $25 I will be furious with this game. I mean leave the mounts for people who deserve them. I am also not counting the Kickstarter stuff or voyager packs to help support game development but once the game launches THATS IT no more cosmetic gear for sale. All armor, weapons and mounts should be earned or crafted. If they have a store it should be for something like furniture or something innocent that is not to much of a big deal. But watch out DEVS, if you mess up by adding to many cosmetics crap in the game for the sake of profit YOU WILL RUIN the game's progression and sense of accomplishment for end game armor when fucking BILLY with his mommy's credit card can get something far better and cooler looking.
If you must do something with the store then do actual store items like RL shirts and stuff for us players to support the game but please for the love of all that is holy DO NOT SELL IN GAME GEAR OR ITEMS or your game will fail in the long term.

SELL real life items to us players - Gaming mouse, keyboard, cloths or something with ashes of creation branding. That's it, you get your money we get our untainted game plus cool merch, easy everybody wins.

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BaSkA_9x2

Josie1577 wrote: »

What facts prove my statements.... seriously... -_-

That's exactly what I thought. Cheers!

Josie1577

BaSkA13 wrote: »

Josie1577 wrote: »

What facts prove my statements.... seriously... -_-

That's exactly what I thought. Cheers!

Lets start with World of Warcraft - the mounts they sell ruined mount collecting in the game as well as any cosmetics that they provided. Lets take a look shall we? Okay, they sell gold for real money - hence you can buy anything, next GW2 does plenty of cosmetics thus progression visually became stale within a year all in the pursuit of money.
Now because you comment is quite childish to begin with and merits no argument except with you challenging my "opinions" then please find me a good reason that is HEALTHY for the game that cosmetics wont hurt its longevity. I want to know where you are getting information from or if you simply bored and want to stir the pot?
This game can still be a massive success with cosmetics however it will still hurt a very important part of the game - the spirit of the MMORPG is actually located in the VISUAL progression of said game. No matter what you want to look cool but if you can snap your fingers and buy the "cool factor" then the challenge factor falls apart.

daveywavey

Josie1577 wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Josie1577 wrote: »

The thing is regardless they will have to find an alternative to cosmetics skins because the serious players do not like that people can just buy cool gear with their credit card and skipped the real challenge and progression. Its just not the way to go about an MMORPG.

They're already making a boatload of cash from it, or they wouldn't be doing it. Anyone spending money on the game this early is already pretty "serious" about it. Please speak for yourself, and not the rest of us!

I said serious gamers. I am speaking for myself and many gamers I have spoken too. I wont speak for anyone that does not understand what I am saying. Do not come here with the notion that I have no basis to stand on, read the rest of my responses to folks here. This is not a discussion to start a negative conversation. You need to understand progression and the fact cosmetics are harmful to the game as a whole. Its pure fact. At the moment the voyager packs are fine for raising money I get it, however when the game is fully released it will harm it. This is not an "opinion", its simply fact. I want this game to succeed so bad to the point I am actually speaking out about this and giving myself a voice and anyone who thinks like me. If you don't agree them don't that's fine. I have to say something so if it happens then I at least tried to do something about it.
Also if you are so fixated on my "serious gamer" comment then look if you are a serious gamer then you are no one cares, I was speaking about folks I know so If I don't know you then you cant get mad at anything.

LOL. Big LOLs. It must be nice to be able to speak to the only serious gamers in the world. Who'd have thought that every serious gamer in the world happens to know you and to have spoken to you about this?! It's almost unbelievable...

"if you are a serious gamer then you are no one cares"
but
"serious players do not like that people can just buy cool gear with their credit card"
Interesting that you're happy to change your stance on "serious gamers" depending on whether or not someone's agreeing with you...

A cosmetic-only cash shop is an extra revenue stream for the company to boost income so that they can pay staff and develop the game further. Cosmetic-only items do not damage gameplay, they don't interfere with in-game systems, and they're not the death of games. That's why the majority of all serious (see what I did there?!) games right now use them. The digital items have a minimal cost, and once made back, don't require any further cost. Once you've recouped that initial outlay, it's pure profit. Digital items are often sold as-is and are generally non-refundable.

Physical merchandise has a continuous cost associated with it. You have to pay for each item before you can sell it, and so your profit margin is less. You have to pay to store the items you haven't yet sold. The customer is allowed to return physical items for a refund, meaning there's still the potential to lose the sale even after it's sold. Physical merchandise, while great to have (and I have plenty), is an inferior product for a company like this to sell.

I get that you're on a crusade against cash shops, and I'm not against that crusade per se, but don't try to make out that the company earning extra money at ~100% profit is going to be the death of them, cos that's blatantly ridiculous. You're also incorrectly assuming that all store items look "far better", when Intrepid themselves have openly stated that this will not be the case. There was an awesome-looking mount shown in the latest stream which will be achievable in-game. There will be more, and plenty of them.

The Ashes Cosmetic Shop isn't going anywhere. If that's a problem for you, you need to make your peace with it sooner rather than later!

daveywavey

Dammit, you made me "essay"......

Azherae

daveywavey wrote: »

Dammit, you made me "essay"......

No True Scotsman would buy his kilt in a cash shop.

Josie1577

daveywavey wrote: »

Josie1577 wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Josie1577 wrote: »

The thing is regardless they will have to find an alternative to cosmetics skins because the serious players do not like that people can just buy cool gear with their credit card and skipped the real challenge and progression. Its just not the way to go about an MMORPG.

They're already making a boatload of cash from it, or they wouldn't be doing it. Anyone spending money on the game this early is already pretty "serious" about it. Please speak for yourself, and not the rest of us!

I said serious gamers. I am speaking for myself and many gamers I have spoken too. I wont speak for anyone that does not understand what I am saying. Do not come here with the notion that I have no basis to stand on, read the rest of my responses to folks here. This is not a discussion to start a negative conversation. You need to understand progression and the fact cosmetics are harmful to the game as a whole. Its pure fact. At the moment the voyager packs are fine for raising money I get it, however when the game is fully released it will harm it. This is not an "opinion", its simply fact. I want this game to succeed so bad to the point I am actually speaking out about this and giving myself a voice and anyone who thinks like me. If you don't agree them don't that's fine. I have to say something so if it happens then I at least tried to do something about it.
Also if you are so fixated on my "serious gamer" comment then look if you are a serious gamer then you are no one cares, I was speaking about folks I know so If I don't know you then you cant get mad at anything.

LOL. Big LOLs. It must be nice to be able to speak to the only serious gamers in the world. Who'd have thought that every serious gamer in the world happens to know you and to have spoken to you about this?! It's almost unbelievable...

"if you are a serious gamer then you are no one cares"
but
"serious players do not like that people can just buy cool gear with their credit card"
Interesting that you're happy to change your stance on "serious gamers" depending on whether or not someone's agreeing with you...

A cosmetic-only cash shop is an extra revenue stream for the company to boost income so that they can pay staff and develop the game further. Cosmetic-only items do not damage gameplay, they don't interfere with in-game systems, and they're not the death of games. That's why the majority of all serious (see what I did there?!) games right now use them. The digital items have a minimal cost, and once made back, don't require any further cost. Once you've recouped that initial outlay, it's pure profit. Digital items are often sold as-is and are generally non-refundable.

Physical merchandise has a continuous cost associated with it. You have to pay for each item before you can sell it, and so your profit margin is less. You have to pay to store the items you haven't yet sold. The customer is allowed to return physical items for a refund, meaning there's still the potential to lose the sale even after it's sold. Physical merchandise, while great to have (and I have plenty), is an inferior product for a company like this to sell.

I get that you're on a crusade against cash shops, and I'm not against that crusade per se, but don't try to make out that the company earning extra money at ~100% profit is going to be the death of them, cos that's blatantly ridiculous. You're also incorrectly assuming that all store items look "far better", when Intrepid themselves have openly stated that this will not be the case. There was an awesome-looking mount shown in the latest stream which will be achievable in-game. There will be more, and plenty of them.

The Ashes Cosmetic Shop isn't going anywhere. If that's a problem for you, you need to make your peace with it sooner rather than later!

I love this comment except for the start of it. Salty I talked about "serious gamers" AGAIN. You have made good points in trying to justify the cosmetics. That's all well and good. I have stated before that all VISAUL items will hurt the integrity of the game. I have made peace with this sad fact long ago however I never have openly spoken up about it because I felt it was pointless due to bad companies not listing. But this is an amazing company that I have faith in and even if they release things I will still play the game but sorry to tell you that even if Steve say's that the in game gear will be better, tat is still considered an opinion. Visual progression is one of the fundamental things in an MMORPG that matter greatly. So go ahead and sit there and defend this issue and attack my side comments since you are such a "serious gamer"( see what I also did there).

Tyranthraxus

If your enjoyment of the game is *so* vitally tied into the visual progression, why don't you just not use cosmetic gear?

You seem pretty concerned about what the next player over is wearing. As long as it's not a thong or a complete Japanese lolli get-up, what do you care if someone looks better than you do?

Why shouldn't other players be able to use cosmetics, if it doesn't affect their enjoyment? In my case, it *enhances* it, given the RP I've got planned for my main toon-to-be.

maouw

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

If your enjoyment of the game is *so* vitally tied into the visual progression, why don't you just not use cosmetic gear?

You seem pretty concerned about what the next player over is wearing. As long as it's not a thong or a complete Japanese lolli get-up, what do you care if someone looks better than you do?

Why shouldn't other players be able to use cosmetics, if it doesn't affect their enjoyment? In my case, it *enhances* it, given the RP I've got planned for my main toon-to-be.

I agree, but I think Josie is coming at it from a high-level design perspective - about the overall feel of the game (hence lamenting the entire existence of the cash shop altogether) which involves decisions about how all players play the game.

_Relic

MMO players will ALWAYS find something to complain about, it's in our nature. However, being against cosmetic cash shop items is so far down my list that I would be overjoyed if that was my biggest gripe.

I think many games have cosmetic items that are so out of touch with their art style and world that their mere creation was a disservice to the game and world setting. But I've long let go of wanting a players gear to tell a story of what raids they've completed or rare spawns they've farmed.

Squishes

I understand how you feel about visual progression but cosmetics are the least destructive way to earn the needed revenue that I know of.
I think the way they have spoken of it so far is fine, some unique items that will not be sold and other items will be in the shop.
I am also not a fan of gatekeeping by referring to people as "serious gamers" as that implies that others opinions are void due to them not meeting your definition of what a serious gamer is instead of judging the merits of the argument.

ButtercupClover

I don't think it will be possible to ruin progression through cosmetics. Cosmetics makes it so your low end armor set doesn't look like trash while allowing you to turn it off once you have high end gear that looks good. Some people also use skins for situational things like in game events or roleplaying guilds. There's also the fact that you could be playing a warrior who you want to look like a knight but your build calls for leather armor. Just slap a skin on that looks like the armor you picture your character wearing and then there's no need to compromise your build for looks.

It doesn't matter what Billy and his mom's credit card can make him look like if your gear can make him look like a pile of ash.

Affluent

Visual progression in this game also worries me!

Marcet

I agree with the OP.

Even not P2W cosmetics are bad for the game, not for the company. It would still be better if you could achieve them in-game.

We all want Intrepid to make money, but this discussion is people defending the least damaging way they have to make that money and the game to succeed as a result of it, and people offering better solutions or asking if the game could survive without it. I think that everyone would like to get rid of a cash shop for this game (okay I get that some people want rainbow wings and the ugly ass purple lion we saw last day) but if it's a way for the game to prosper we have to deal with it.

No one here is demonizing Steven, if he makes a cash shop is for a reason. In my opinion there is already too much bloating of weird mounts and skins 2 years before release, but as I said, if they need it, so be it.

Josie1577

Just trying to protect the hard work of the players that don't have the money to just buy the looks , they earn them by playing the game. Apologies if me saying "serious Gamers', hurt anyone. I get to voice that opinion openly and have conversations with people to give everyone something to think about.

Happymeal2415

@ Josie I may have missed if someone said this already but the cosmetics are also tiered. Meaning to use the cosmetic you have to have unlocked the equivalent tiered gear/mount etc and overlay the bought cosmetic on that piece. This saves the progression because maybe someone bought the yellow cape but they had to unlock the red one first

Jahlon

Happymeal2415 wrote: »

@ Josie I may have missed if someone said this already but the cosmetics are also tiered. Meaning to use the cosmetic you have to have unlocked the equivalent tiered gear/mount etc and overlay the bought cosmetic on that piece. This saves the progression because maybe someone bought the yellow cape but they had to unlock the red one first

This is partially incorrect. Yes, you have to have the right mount and tier for those, but gear is full body and has no requirement.

Noaani

Josie1577 wrote: »

The thing is regardless they will have to find an alternative to cosmetics skins because the serious players do not like that people can just buy cool gear with their credit card and skipped the real challenge and progression.

The "serious" players know that the value and item progression position of an item are based on the items stats, not the items looks.

Appearance is 100% subjective.

The game still has a built in way to ensure there is a way to show off item progression for items you have earned in game. Since purchased cosmetics are full skins and unable to be recolored, if you mix and match your own set of items, and recolor them to one not to found in game, the other three people in the game that care about visual progression will be able to see that you are not using a cosmetic, and that the items you are showing are ones you found in game.

Atrushan

Josie1577 wrote: »

I love the comments! Keep it up ladies and gents! The thing is regardless they will have to find an alternative to cosmetics skins because the serious players do not like that people can just buy cool gear with their credit card and skipped the real challenge and progression. Its just not the way to go about an MMORPG.

But Merch on the other hand Id spend hundreds of dollars on to support this game easy. Id rock that on a Saturday night game in a raid 😎😎

Cosmetics are only looks. Cosmetic progression is not game progression, and you're not even buying real gear, you're buying skins. If you're early in the game you're still wearing crappy equipment regardless, it just looks better.

Josie1577

Atrushan wrote: »

Josie1577 wrote: »

I love the comments! Keep it up ladies and gents! The thing is regardless they will have to find an alternative to cosmetics skins because the serious players do not like that people can just buy cool gear with their credit card and skipped the real challenge and progression. Its just not the way to go about an MMORPG.

But Merch on the other hand Id spend hundreds of dollars on to support this game easy. Id rock that on a Saturday night game in a raid 😎😎

Cosmetics are only looks. Cosmetic progression is not game progression, and you're not even buying real gear, you're buying skins. If you're early in the game you're still wearing crappy equipment regardless, it just looks better.

I understand that. Still gets in the way of progress. Visually.

Josie1577

ButtercupClover wrote: »

I don't think it will be possible to ruin progression through cosmetics. Cosmetics makes it so your low end armor set doesn't look like trash while allowing you to turn it off once you have high end gear that looks good. Some people also use skins for situational things like in game events or roleplaying guilds. There's also the fact that you could be playing a warrior who you want to look like a knight but your build calls for leather armor. Just slap a skin on that looks like the armor you picture your character wearing and then there's no need to compromise your build for looks.

It doesn't matter what Billy and his mom's credit card can make him look like if your gear can make him look like a pile of ash.

That's the point mate. You NEED to look like a starter adventurer. Not the end game badass. The fantasy that they preach about will be compromised. You are not a main character or a boss. You are a nobody trying to become somebody through hard work and effort. That's what they are putting on the line here.

There are alternative ways of making money.

Child Item