ButtercupCloverMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't think it will be possible to ruin progression through cosmetics. Cosmetics makes it so your low end armor set doesn't look like trash while allowing you to turn it off once you have high end gear that looks good. Some people also use skins for situational things like in game events or roleplaying guilds. There's also the fact that you could be playing a warrior who you want to look like a knight but your build calls for leather armor. Just slap a skin on that looks like the armor you picture your character wearing and then there's no need to compromise your build for looks.
It doesn't matter what Billy and his mom's credit card can make him look like if your gear can make him look like a pile of ash.
Even not P2W cosmetics are bad for the game, not for the company. It would still be better if you could achieve them in-game.
We all want Intrepid to make money, but this discussion is people defending the least damaging way they have to make that money and the game to succeed as a result of it, and people offering better solutions or asking if the game could survive without it. I think that everyone would like to get rid of a cash shop for this game (okay I get that some people want rainbow wings and the ugly ass purple lion we saw last day) but if it's a way for the game to prosper we have to deal with it.
No one here is demonizing Steven, if he makes a cash shop is for a reason. In my opinion there is already too much bloating of weird mounts and skins 2 years before release, but as I said, if they need it, so be it.
Just trying to protect the hard work of the players that don't have the money to just buy the looks , they earn them by playing the game. Apologies if me saying "serious Gamers', hurt anyone. I get to voice that opinion openly and have conversations with people to give everyone something to think about.
@ Josie I may have missed if someone said this already but the cosmetics are also tiered. Meaning to use the cosmetic you have to have unlocked the equivalent tiered gear/mount etc and overlay the bought cosmetic on that piece. This saves the progression because maybe someone bought the yellow cape but they had to unlock the red one first
@ Josie I may have missed if someone said this already but the cosmetics are also tiered. Meaning to use the cosmetic you have to have unlocked the equivalent tiered gear/mount etc and overlay the bought cosmetic on that piece. This saves the progression because maybe someone bought the yellow cape but they had to unlock the red one first
This is partially incorrect. Yes, you have to have the right mount and tier for those, but gear is full body and has no requirement.
The thing is regardless they will have to find an alternative to cosmetics skins because the serious players do not like that people can just buy cool gear with their credit card and skipped the real challenge and progression.
The "serious" players know that the value and item progression position of an item are based on the items stats, not the items looks.
Appearance is 100% subjective.
The game still has a built in way to ensure there is a way to show off item progression for items you have earned in game. Since purchased cosmetics are full skins and unable to be recolored, if you mix and match your own set of items, and recolor them to one not to found in game, the other three people in the game that care about visual progression will be able to see that you are not using a cosmetic, and that the items you are showing are ones you found in game.
I love the comments! Keep it up ladies and gents! The thing is regardless they will have to find an alternative to cosmetics skins because the serious players do not like that people can just buy cool gear with their credit card and skipped the real challenge and progression. Its just not the way to go about an MMORPG.
But Merch on the other hand Id spend hundreds of dollars on to support this game easy. Id rock that on a Saturday night game in a raid 😎😎
Cosmetics are only looks. Cosmetic progression is not game progression, and you're not even buying real gear, you're buying skins. If you're early in the game you're still wearing crappy equipment regardless, it just looks better.
I love the comments! Keep it up ladies and gents! The thing is regardless they will have to find an alternative to cosmetics skins because the serious players do not like that people can just buy cool gear with their credit card and skipped the real challenge and progression. Its just not the way to go about an MMORPG.
But Merch on the other hand Id spend hundreds of dollars on to support this game easy. Id rock that on a Saturday night game in a raid 😎😎
Cosmetics are only looks. Cosmetic progression is not game progression, and you're not even buying real gear, you're buying skins. If you're early in the game you're still wearing crappy equipment regardless, it just looks better.
I understand that. Still gets in the way of progress. Visually.
I don't think it will be possible to ruin progression through cosmetics. Cosmetics makes it so your low end armor set doesn't look like trash while allowing you to turn it off once you have high end gear that looks good. Some people also use skins for situational things like in game events or roleplaying guilds. There's also the fact that you could be playing a warrior who you want to look like a knight but your build calls for leather armor. Just slap a skin on that looks like the armor you picture your character wearing and then there's no need to compromise your build for looks.
It doesn't matter what Billy and his mom's credit card can make him look like if your gear can make him look like a pile of ash.
That's the point mate. You NEED to look like a starter adventurer. Not the end game badass. The fantasy that they preach about will be compromised. You are not a main character or a boss. You are a nobody trying to become somebody through hard work and effort. That's what they are putting on the line here.
If your enjoyment of the game is *so* vitally tied into the visual progression, why don't you just not use cosmetic gear?
You seem pretty concerned about what the next player over is wearing. As long as it's not a thong or a complete Japanese lolli get-up, what do you care if someone looks better than you do?
Why shouldn't other players be able to use cosmetics, if it doesn't affect their enjoyment? In my case, it *enhances* it, given the RP I've got planned for my main toon-to-be.
I get it. But it will compromise progression. It just will. But I get what you are saying to. No one is right or wrong but it WILL compromise progression.
I understand how you feel about visual progression but cosmetics are the least destructive way to earn the needed revenue that I know of.
I think the way they have spoken of it so far is fine, some unique items that will not be sold and other items will be in the shop.
I am also not a fan of gatekeeping by referring to people as "serious gamers" as that implies that others opinions are void due to them not meeting your definition of what a serious gamer is instead of judging the merits of the argument.
My bad about gatekeeping but i dont see a problem with doing that. If you dont get offended with what I said it means you either are or dont care if you do get offended then your offended. Idk what to do I cant control peoples feelings. My message is about progression not if you are a serious gamer or not. I added that in there to defend the serious gamer. I also made it a very open ended statement to were it refers to anyone lol, this is a prime example of Karen's getting salty over semantics XD.
If your enjoyment of the game is *so* vitally tied into the visual progression, why don't you just not use cosmetic gear?
You seem pretty concerned about what the next player over is wearing. As long as it's not a thong or a complete Japanese lolli get-up, what do you care if someone looks better than you do?
Why shouldn't other players be able to use cosmetics, if it doesn't affect their enjoyment? In my case, it *enhances* it, given the RP I've got planned for my main toon-to-be.
I get it. But it will compromise progression. It just will. But I get what you are saying to. No one is right or wrong but it WILL compromise progression.
Many people are indeed right, and someone is wrong.
Get your awesome looking item off the store, wear it to take on a dragon, and see how well progressed your character is.
I an MMO, progression is about being able to do more or better. Kill more or harder things, craft more or better items.
You may value looks, no one cares if you do. However, you valuing looks does not make looks progression all of a sudden - it just means you value it.
If your enjoyment of the game is *so* vitally tied into the visual progression, why don't you just not use cosmetic gear?
You seem pretty concerned about what the next player over is wearing. As long as it's not a thong or a complete Japanese lolli get-up, what do you care if someone looks better than you do?
Why shouldn't other players be able to use cosmetics, if it doesn't affect their enjoyment? In my case, it *enhances* it, given the RP I've got planned for my main toon-to-be.
I get it. But it will compromise progression. It just will. But I get what you are saying to. No one is right or wrong but it WILL compromise progression.
Cosmetics are only looks. Cosmetic progression is not game progression, and you're not even buying real gear, you're buying skins. If you're early in the game you're still wearing crappy equipment regardless, it just looks better.
While cosmetics are cool, they're boring. Any MMO I play now I can instantly tell the 'cool' looking people didn't earn it, they just bought it and it's just as I said, boring. Out of all micro-transactions, I find cosmetics to be both the least and most impactful to the game. On one hand, they provide zero gameplay advantage but on the other, do you know if the developers are really putting effort into lootable gear when they're fully aware they get more from making an armor set premium? When a game comes with a monthly fee you think they'd be less inclined to attach so many cosmetic options but here we are...
In the future, the metaverse (If the games ever get established) will have more than skins to purchase. In ember sword (the game) people have literally purchased land. In Star Citizen (the game) people are buying space ships. If the metaverse is ever established it will be the ultimate MMORPG. I appreciate Ashes only lets us buy skins, the situation could be far worse.
While cosmetics are cool, they're boring. Any MMO I play now I can instantly tell the 'cool' looking people didn't earn it, they just bought it and it's just as I said, boring. Out of all micro-transactions, I find cosmetics to be both the least and most impactful to the game. On one hand, they provide zero gameplay advantage but on the other, do you know if the developers are really putting effort into lootable gear when they're fully aware they get more from making an armor set premium? When a game comes with a monthly fee you think they'd be less inclined to attach so many cosmetic options but here we are...
This broadly depends on what happens to the team post-launch, because you're right. The "cosmetics are the content!" is endemic with anything that qualifies as Games-as-a-Service and even a lot of the ones that don't. The reason why is that keeping the art team on is the cheapest thing they can do after they lay off everyone else or shift them to a different project. This is why anyone with a brain stayed far, far away from NCSoft published or developed MMO's. They were guaranteed to be dropped within 12-18 months of launch for the new project and keep on a team of artists and token programmers to drip-feed content and "content" (cosmetics).
In theory, the subscription model should allow Intrepid to justify keeping on the majority of the team to continue working on the game, adding more actual content, fixing and tweaking things, but the art teams have to have things to do. I am not going to say that they have the easiest job in the world, but you can tell just how comparatively fast they can churn out a new costume versus how long it takes a team of engineers to fine-tune the netcode. One of these is an extremely long-term development project, the other can be done in less than a month once you've streamlined the process. It also justifies their existence and adds more money into the project which then in turn means more money that can go towards long-term staffing.
I understand how you feel about visual progression but cosmetics are the least destructive way to earn the needed revenue that I know of.
I think the way they have spoken of it so far is fine, some unique items that will not be sold and other items will be in the shop.
I am also not a fan of gatekeeping by referring to people as "serious gamers" as that implies that others opinions are void due to them not meeting your definition of what a serious gamer is instead of judging the merits of the argument.
My bad about gatekeeping but i dont see a problem with doing that. If you dont get offended with what I said it means you either are or dont care if you do get offended then your offended. Idk what to do I cant control peoples feelings. My message is about progression not if you are a serious gamer or not. I added that in there to defend the serious gamer. I also made it a very open ended statement to were it refers to anyone lol, this is a prime example of Karen's getting salty over semantics XD.
I see you don't have a problem with ad hominem as you keep referring to people as little billy, karen, serious gamers, salty, etc. instead of seeking to understand other points of view, what is needed to fund a game, then stating possible solutions; This is a prime example of someone unable to clearly express their thoughts so they try to belittle others.
I am having trouble understanding what you are trying to convey about feelings, I think you are tying to accuse me of making an irrational statement based off of emotion then you continued by stating that you don't care about other people so you shouldn't be responsible for what you say, but feel free to clarify if that is not correct.
I am also wondering why you consider holiday specials, furniture, Kickstarter packs, voyager packs, real life items like shirts to be "not to much of a big deal"? Where is your line for acceptable sales, why have you drawn it there, and how do you think that might coincide with that of the other players?
If your enjoyment of the game is *so* vitally tied into the visual progression, why don't you just not use cosmetic gear?
You seem pretty concerned about what the next player over is wearing. As long as it's not a thong or a complete Japanese lolli get-up, what do you care if someone looks better than you do?
Why shouldn't other players be able to use cosmetics, if it doesn't affect their enjoyment? In my case, it *enhances* it, given the RP I've got planned for my main toon-to-be.
I get it. But it will compromise progression. It just will. But I get what you are saying to. No one is right or wrong but it WILL compromise progression.
But.... how?
Especially since my enjoyment of other games has only been *enhanced* by being able to put together lower-level/more-basic looking gear from a large collection of in-game cosmetics, how exactly will this negatively impact progression?
0
AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Get out of here Poser1577. Real gamers are talking.
1577 is an odd selection of numbers. It's almost if you subtract one from 5 and add two one's to the 7's you get an entirely different number that means something.
1577 is an odd selection of numbers. It's almost if you subtract one from 5 and add two one's to the 7's you get an entirely different number that means something.
Josie, comment?
I have dealt with many fans of that number IRL, they tend to be very brazen; I doubt that has anything to do with the OP and unless there is something I missed then I think you are reaching too far with the accusation without something concrete to back it up.
The thing is regardless they will have to find an alternative to cosmetics skins because the serious players do not like that people can just buy cool gear with their credit card and skipped the real challenge and progression. Its just not the way to go about an MMORPG.
They're already making a boatload of cash from it, or they wouldn't be doing it. Anyone spending money on the game this early is already pretty "serious" about it. Please speak for yourself, and not the rest of us!
I said serious gamers. I am speaking for myself and many gamers I have spoken too. I wont speak for anyone that does not understand what I am saying. Do not come here with the notion that I have no basis to stand on, read the rest of my responses to folks here. This is not a discussion to start a negative conversation. You need to understand progression and the fact cosmetics are harmful to the game as a whole. Its pure fact. At the moment the voyager packs are fine for raising money I get it, however when the game is fully released it will harm it. This is not an "opinion", its simply fact. I want this game to succeed so bad to the point I am actually speaking out about this and giving myself a voice and anyone who thinks like me. If you don't agree them don't that's fine. I have to say something so if it happens then I at least tried to do something about it.
Also if you are so fixated on my "serious gamer" comment then look if you are a serious gamer then you are no one cares, I was speaking about folks I know so If I don't know you then you cant get mad at anything.
LOL. Big LOLs. It must be nice to be able to speak to the only serious gamers in the world. Who'd have thought that every serious gamer in the world happens to know you and to have spoken to you about this?! It's almost unbelievable...
"if you are a serious gamer then you are no one cares"
but
"serious players do not like that people can just buy cool gear with their credit card"
Interesting that you're happy to change your stance on "serious gamers" depending on whether or not someone's agreeing with you...
A cosmetic-only cash shop is an extra revenue stream for the company to boost income so that they can pay staff and develop the game further. Cosmetic-only items do not damage gameplay, they don't interfere with in-game systems, and they're not the death of games. That's why the majority of all serious (see what I did there?!) games right now use them. The digital items have a minimal cost, and once made back, don't require any further cost. Once you've recouped that initial outlay, it's pure profit. Digital items are often sold as-is and are generally non-refundable.
Physical merchandise has a continuous cost associated with it. You have to pay for each item before you can sell it, and so your profit margin is less. You have to pay to store the items you haven't yet sold. The customer is allowed to return physical items for a refund, meaning there's still the potential to lose the sale even after it's sold. Physical merchandise, while great to have (and I have plenty), is an inferior product for a company like this to sell.
I get that you're on a crusade against cash shops, and I'm not against that crusade per se, but don't try to make out that the company earning extra money at ~100% profit is going to be the death of them, cos that's blatantly ridiculous. You're also incorrectly assuming that all store items look "far better", when Intrepid themselves have openly stated that this will not be the case. There was an awesome-looking mount shown in the latest stream which will be achievable in-game. There will be more, and plenty of them.
The Ashes Cosmetic Shop isn't going anywhere. If that's a problem for you, you need to make your peace with it sooner rather than later!
My first reaction when I saw this: "omg daveywavey left a long and serious comment! "
The deciding factor for whether or not I buy cosmetics from the cash shop depends entirely on how well the company executes the game they promised. If there is no P2W, thats the first check on the list that makes me feel ok about further supporting the company. Shop skins are fine as long as the shop only has cosmetics and the game has gear that is equal to or better than shop cosmetics that is attainable through in game progression.
The only people complaining about shops skins are completionists.
Comments
It doesn't matter what Billy and his mom's credit card can make him look like if your gear can make him look like a pile of ash.
Even not P2W cosmetics are bad for the game, not for the company. It would still be better if you could achieve them in-game.
We all want Intrepid to make money, but this discussion is people defending the least damaging way they have to make that money and the game to succeed as a result of it, and people offering better solutions or asking if the game could survive without it. I think that everyone would like to get rid of a cash shop for this game (okay I get that some people want rainbow wings and the ugly ass purple lion we saw last day) but if it's a way for the game to prosper we have to deal with it.
No one here is demonizing Steven, if he makes a cash shop is for a reason. In my opinion there is already too much bloating of weird mounts and skins 2 years before release, but as I said, if they need it, so be it.
This is partially incorrect. Yes, you have to have the right mount and tier for those, but gear is full body and has no requirement.
Appearance is 100% subjective.
The game still has a built in way to ensure there is a way to show off item progression for items you have earned in game. Since purchased cosmetics are full skins and unable to be recolored, if you mix and match your own set of items, and recolor them to one not to found in game, the other three people in the game that care about visual progression will be able to see that you are not using a cosmetic, and that the items you are showing are ones you found in game.
Cosmetics are only looks. Cosmetic progression is not game progression, and you're not even buying real gear, you're buying skins. If you're early in the game you're still wearing crappy equipment regardless, it just looks better.
I understand that. Still gets in the way of progress. Visually.
That's the point mate. You NEED to look like a starter adventurer. Not the end game badass. The fantasy that they preach about will be compromised. You are not a main character or a boss. You are a nobody trying to become somebody through hard work and effort. That's what they are putting on the line here.
There are alternative ways of making money.
I get it. But it will compromise progression. It just will. But I get what you are saying to. No one is right or wrong but it WILL compromise progression.
My bad about gatekeeping but i dont see a problem with doing that. If you dont get offended with what I said it means you either are or dont care if you do get offended then your offended. Idk what to do I cant control peoples feelings. My message is about progression not if you are a serious gamer or not. I added that in there to defend the serious gamer. I also made it a very open ended statement to were it refers to anyone lol, this is a prime example of Karen's getting salty over semantics XD.
Many people are indeed right, and someone is wrong.
Get your awesome looking item off the store, wear it to take on a dragon, and see how well progressed your character is.
I an MMO, progression is about being able to do more or better. Kill more or harder things, craft more or better items.
You may value looks, no one cares if you do. However, you valuing looks does not make looks progression all of a sudden - it just means you value it.
Nope.
Re-read this post:
This broadly depends on what happens to the team post-launch, because you're right. The "cosmetics are the content!" is endemic with anything that qualifies as Games-as-a-Service and even a lot of the ones that don't. The reason why is that keeping the art team on is the cheapest thing they can do after they lay off everyone else or shift them to a different project. This is why anyone with a brain stayed far, far away from NCSoft published or developed MMO's. They were guaranteed to be dropped within 12-18 months of launch for the new project and keep on a team of artists and token programmers to drip-feed content and "content" (cosmetics).
In theory, the subscription model should allow Intrepid to justify keeping on the majority of the team to continue working on the game, adding more actual content, fixing and tweaking things, but the art teams have to have things to do. I am not going to say that they have the easiest job in the world, but you can tell just how comparatively fast they can churn out a new costume versus how long it takes a team of engineers to fine-tune the netcode. One of these is an extremely long-term development project, the other can be done in less than a month once you've streamlined the process. It also justifies their existence and adds more money into the project which then in turn means more money that can go towards long-term staffing.
But again, this is all in theory.
I see you don't have a problem with ad hominem as you keep referring to people as little billy, karen, serious gamers, salty, etc. instead of seeking to understand other points of view, what is needed to fund a game, then stating possible solutions; This is a prime example of someone unable to clearly express their thoughts so they try to belittle others.
I am having trouble understanding what you are trying to convey about feelings, I think you are tying to accuse me of making an irrational statement based off of emotion then you continued by stating that you don't care about other people so you shouldn't be responsible for what you say, but feel free to clarify if that is not correct.
I am also wondering why you consider holiday specials, furniture, Kickstarter packs, voyager packs, real life items like shirts to be "not to much of a big deal"? Where is your line for acceptable sales, why have you drawn it there, and how do you think that might coincide with that of the other players?
But.... how?
Especially since my enjoyment of other games has only been *enhanced* by being able to put together lower-level/more-basic looking gear from a large collection of in-game cosmetics, how exactly will this negatively impact progression?
Josie, comment?
My first reaction when I saw this: "omg daveywavey left a long and serious comment!
The only people complaining about shops skins are completionists.
They made me "essay". I'm still feeling a little dirty from it...