Archeology - Missing profession?

Over the years I have noticed that IS really has great talent when it comes to lore. I adore reading about the cosmetic lore and on the wiki. Why not "capitalize" on this and create a new profession all about uncovering the lore of the world? I believe Archeology as a profession would be a perfect fit for AoC!

It could be implemented in many different ways! For example, just like ores spawn around the world, small excavation sites can spawn which may give you everything from artifacts, to materials, to clue scrolls that take you out on riddled adventures!

You could also expand the profession by using gathered materials to restore ancient artifacts, giving you everything from gear, cosmetics, pets and other interesting items. The items could have lore significance as well as having other uses. You could even display your finding in your home!

What do you guys think? Would this profession be a good fit for AoC?

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Ulfbrinter

This sort of game design works in a game from the 1990's, nowadays it simply has no relevance because players are easily confused and this content goes utterly undiscovered.

JesterLo

@Marzzo I think this would be content that is covered by the Scribe profession. My understanding is that scribes will be cataloging the world as it is today, updating maps etc. but they could as well be uncovering the past.

Noaani

Karp wrote: »

Marzzo I think this would be content that is covered by the Scribe profession. My understanding is that scribes will be cataloging the world as it is today, updating maps etc. but they could as well be uncovering the past.

To be clear, the very existence of a scribe profession is tenuous at best.

All the information we have is the following exchange

Player question; will there be a scribe, or something similar?

Steven; a scribe as in, like, scrolls? (obviously confused as to the context of the question).

Off screen clarification; They want to be able to collect information about the events of the world as they see it from their point of view. For instance: Nodes leveling up, they want to be able to take that information down and be the one to distribute it.

Steven; that's cool, I like that.

This discussion has been taken from that in to a scribe being a crafting class in the game - which is clearly not what that discussion was about from Stevens perspective.

He was asked if there will be people keeping a record of things that happen on a server, nodes, castles, bosses etc, and said that sounds cool. People saw that, and assumed a crafting class.

To the OP, I like the idea of this,, given Ashes lore. However, I don't think it should be a profession, as it would either need to be something that is completely removed from the games lore (why would archeology be about anything other than discovering the game worlds history?), or it would need to be finite.

It could, however, be it's own kind of progression path. So payers could progress their combat class, their crafting class, their naval class, their social organization, their node, and their archeology.

Marzzo

Noaani wrote: »

Karp wrote: »

Marzzo I think this would be content that is covered by the Scribe profession. My understanding is that scribes will be cataloging the world as it is today, updating maps etc. but they could as well be uncovering the past.

To be clear, the very existence of a scribe profession is tenuous at best.

All the information we have is the following exchange

Player question; will there be a scribe, or something similar?

Steven; a scribe as in, like, scrolls? (obviously confused as to the context of the question).

Off screen clarification; They want to be able to collect information about the events of the world as they see it from their point of view. For instance: Nodes leveling up, they want to be able to take that information down and be the one to distribute it.

Steven; that's cool, I like that.

This discussion has been taken from that in to a scribe being a crafting class in the game - which is clearly not what that discussion was about from Stevens perspective.

He was asked if there will be people keeping a record of things that happen on a server, nodes, castles, bosses etc, and said that sounds cool. People saw that, and assumed a crafting class.

To the OP, I like the idea of this,, given Ashes lore. However, I don't think it should be a profession, as it would either need to be something that is completely removed from the games lore (why would archeology be about anything other than discovering the game worlds history?), or it would need to be finite.

It could, however, be it's own kind of progression path. So payers could progress their combat class, their crafting class, their naval class, their social organization, their node, and their archeology.

I read about the scribe profession, but it is in my opinion not exactly the same thing. Archeology includes a lot more than scrolls and books. Thats why I believe archeology should be a different entity.

Archeology would be a hybrid between a gathering profession and a "crafting one". The devs can really do almost anything with archeology as a foundation. In my opinion, it is a lot more interesting than for example smithing etc.

Marzzo

Ulfbrinter wrote: »

This sort of game design works in a game from the 1990's, nowadays it simply has no relevance because players are easily confused and this content goes utterly undiscovered.

Hmm, and mining rocks to make bars and armor is somehow, more modern?

Archeology, in contrast to smithing, mining, woodcutting, skinning, leatherworking etc has a LOT more potential. Thanks to modern game design and technology you could make archeology as a profession 10x more deep and interesting than the other simple 1990 professions already in AoC.

Going out searching for excavation sites, returning with materials to later restore anchient artifacts, is a great gameplay loop.

The artifacts could be anything from buffing items, pets, special weapons and armors, fishing rods etc etc...

While providing a clear gameplay loop, progression and amazing rewards, it would also uncover lore behind these artifacts.

I can not understand how this is a 1990s system.

Noaani

Marzzo wrote: »

In my opinion, it is a lot more interesting than for example smithing etc.

It is, but archeology shouldn't be used as a means of gaining items.

if the game has archeology, it should be there as a means of uncovering the history of Verra.

Using archeology as a means of finding items for players seems a little too Blizzard for my liking.

Marzzo

Noaani wrote: »

Marzzo wrote: »

In my opinion, it is a lot more interesting than for example smithing etc.

It is, but archeology shouldn't be used as a means of gaining items.

if the game has archeology, it should be there as a means of uncovering the history of Verra.

Using archeology as a means of finding items for players seems a little too Blizzard for my liking.

It is a completly logical and natural thing for archeology to reward items. It is not inspired from blizzard, it is inspired from real life. Because when escavating stuff from the ground, you do indeed sometimes find items in real life.

What harm exactly would it cause you, if lets say, an ancient pet could be awarded from a rare artifact? Or a special fishing rod skin? Does it somehow ruin the experience for you?

Noaani

Marzzo wrote: »

Because when escavating stuff from the ground, you do indeed sometimes find items in real life.

You do indeed.

Thing is, people don't go excavating Roman ruins (the minimum time period that people have been in Sanctus) looking for a new pair of socks. Archeology, almost by definition, finds things that are ruined. Finding things that are more recent and so are in a somewhat usable condition is scavenging, not archeology.

It isn't about ruining the experience, it is about putting in systems that have a theme that matches what the system is.

It wouldn't ruin the game for anyone if swords were deemed ranged weapons - that is perfectly viable to do on a system level.

Thing is, that isn't what swords are.

Archeology isn't about finding usable items - that just isn't what it is. If you want a system that is about finding usable items, cool - but it isn't archeology - just as having a ranged weapon in a game like Ashes is cool - it just isn't a sword.

Scavenging could well be a viable profession that does what you are talking about. That would be fine, and it leaves the concept of archeology alone for if the developers decide to eventually do something that actually fits with what archeology is at some point.

Ulfbrinter

Marzzo wrote: »

I can not understand how this is a 1990s system.

Ask yourself this: in your gameplay loop are you going to utilize map waypoints and objective markers that clearly and finely explain in no uncertain terms what the player is meant to do? If not, then it's not worth adding because it isn't intuitive and it's a system from the 90's. This is why the only mechanics from old MMO's to survive into new MMO's are ones that are inherently intuitive and straightforward. This goes for any RPG unless you're playing one that is retro by design. If you think I am wrong, please compare the quest system from Morrowind to the quest systems from Skyrim. It's pretty plain how much they changed and why they changed: most players didn't understand, would get frustrated, and stop playing.

To us these things are fun. To the vast majority of people, who only want to press the dopamine button, it is not.

Taleof2Cities

Ulfbrinter wrote: »

This is why the only mechanics from old MMO's to survive into new MMO's are ones that are inherently intuitive and straightforward. This goes for any RPG unless you're playing one that is retro by design. It's pretty plain how much they changed and why they changed: most players didn't understand, would get frustrated, and stop playing.

It's a bit of a stretch to say the masses will quit because of one (proposed) trade profession side activity, @Ulfbrinter.

Archaeology, by it's definition, is finding a site, excavating it, and evaluating the artifact contents. Which definitely doesn't rule out Morrowind-type mechanics.

If younger gamers need something that's "inherently intuitive and straightforward" (I read that as handholding), they can simply pick another profession to specialize in.

Noaani

Ulfbrinter wrote: »

. If you think I am wrong, please compare the quest system from Morrowind to the quest systems from Skyrim.

The Morrowind quest system was considered horrible in its day. It was improved upon because it was shit and known to be shit, not as a means of dumbing things down. They tried to improve the system with one of Morrowinds expansions, but failed.

That said, Ashes is kind of like those RPGs you hint at that are designed to be sort of retro.

Ironhope

Nothing that can't be added via expansions.

Ulfbrinter

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

It's a bit of a stretch to say the masses will quit because of one (proposed) trade profession side activity, @Ulfbrinter..

What I was using the Morrowind example for was to illustrate that the old way of doing things doesn't work anymore. And it sounds like Marzzo wants to do the old way of doing things; which won't work. The bulk of your players want concise direct information that they can easily reference to the next time they log in and need to remember where they stopped. I played a game where quests were literally written on notes you kept in your inventory but were in no way special items that told what they were. And worse, often the quests were told to you via an NPC in chat AND there was no formal quest tracking system. I loved this, but to say it filtered the vast majority of players would be an understatement. I am of course not pushing for something quite so byzantine, but what Marzzo is describing sounds closer to the older, puzzle it out/lateral thinking, writing stuff down in notebooks for reference, style of RPG's and MMO's than current ones. Current players will expect current systems, that's all I am saying.

ButtercupClover

Ulfbrinter wrote: »

This sort of game design works in a game from the 1990's, nowadays it simply has no relevance because players are easily confused and this content goes utterly undiscovered.

Any FromSoftware game disagrees.

ButtercupClover

I thought the scribe profession was meant that be this though. Delving through ruins and working out of town libraries to research the lore and possibly unlock new stuff.

Scribes write scrolls and books. This would be useless to most players but the scribe wiki page also contains a lot of info about the library which makes me think leveling up scribing let's you use more parts of a library such as the finding resource locations and unlocking new dungeons aspect of libraries.

daveywavey

Noaani wrote: »

The Morrowind quest system was considered horrible in its day. It was improved upon because it was shit and known to be shit, not as a means of dumbing things down. They tried to improve the system with one of Morrowinds expansions, but failed.

Sathrago

I support an archeology profession as an additional gathering profession. It could be one of the primary ways to "gather" long lost recipes, blueprints, housing decorations, etc. Slap some lore onto each item gathered and it could be quite the treasure trove of world building while also providing another avenue for recipe discovery outside of combat.

Ulfbrinter

ButtercupClover wrote: »

Ulfbrinter wrote: »

This sort of game design works in a game from the 1990's, nowadays it simply has no relevance because players are easily confused and this content goes utterly undiscovered.

Any FromSoftware game disagrees.

No? I ask you to please look at any achievement tracker and you'll not only be stunned at how few actually finish these games once they get past the initial boss, but then fail to unlock a myriad of the sidequests/content/endings.

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