AOC the next PAY TO WIN mmo

Soo... I constantly hear that AoC is not going to be pay to win. But what exactly is winning in an mmorpg? How do you WIN in mmo's.
It's easier do define in games like lets say counter strike. Your winning if you win competetive matches and if there is anything you can buy for money that gives you an advantage over people that did not buy the said advantage it's PTW.
Mmorpgs are different. Winning can be so much more.

You hear it all the time from devs, "in this mmo you can do anything and become anyone", crafting, gathering, dungeons/raids, pvp and so much more. You can be the best player and "win" in any of those proffesions/occupations. But there is another way of winning in an mmo. You know what that is? Becoming the best looking.

Achieving the meanest looking apperance have always been a drive for me in games, and always looked up to people that have it, congratulating them for having an awsome apperance. I often hear things like "transmogs/apperance is the real endgame"

and to say cosmetics have no role in winning is so wrong imo.
You'r really telling me that there is not a market for visual contest? Asmongolds transmog competitions for a fun example.

For discussion: Are visuals a part of winning in your opinion? If not, what is?

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Comments

Orym

@Karthos yeah that was more or less my question from the beginning. If winning is something set in stone. That winning only means a certain thing or if its more of a gray area. But if your saying that winning in a virtual or real game can only be achieved by doing something specific, then it's only my lack of understanding the english language that stired up so much trigger

@insomnia luckily we have a really smart and intelligent person with us in this thread that can in great detail explain to us that are not as bright exactly where that line goes, what is winning and what is not. Beacuse if something isn't PAY to win there has to be ways OF winning by not paying. What are those ways? Thank you!

CROW3

Nope, still silly.

You're attempting to take an understood concept of P2W - which is about short-cutting linear progression via real currency - and speciously correlating that 'win' to some hyper-subjective concept like 'fun.' So you can move the goal posts wherever you want, but you're just playing silly games imo.

Noaani

Orym wrote: »

. Beacuse if something isn't PAY to win there has to be ways OF winning by not paying. What are those ways? Thank you!

Winning in an MMO is progressing - whether that is combat or crafting (the limit of most MMO progression), and potentially naval in Ashes.

Anything else is a personal goal, and that doesn't count in terms of winning.

Is that a bright enough line for you?

mfckingjoker

So you're saying that someone who looks better can perform better or win sth just with that ? this doesn't make any sense. I'm against cosmetics in cash shop but still they give no advantage and never should. Unless u have a total different definition of "winning" idk

Atama

mfckingjoker wrote: »

Unless u have a total different definition of "winning" idk

They do have a different definition of "winning". The key is that people don't get to make up their own personal definitions and then chastise the developer for not abiding by them. I mean, they can do that, but they look stupid when they do.

There is a pretty clear definition of what "pay to win" is, and when a game developer claims that they will avoid it, then you know what they mean. If you try to pull some stunt like trying to change the definition of "pay" and/or "win" to something that isn't the industry standard, nobody is going to support you because you're out of your mind.

Why don't you declare that kale is meat and try to organize a boycott of a vegetarian restaurant and see how far you get.

insomnia

Orym wrote: »

@Karthos yeah that was more or less my question from the beginning. If winning is something set in stone. That winning only means a certain thing or if its more of a gray area. But if your saying that winning in a virtual or real game can only be achieved by doing something specific, then it's only my lack of understanding the english language that stired up so much trigger

@insomnia luckily we have a really smart and intelligent person with us in this thread that can in great detail explain to us that are not as bright exactly where that line goes, what is winning and what is not. Beacuse if something isn't PAY to win there has to be ways OF winning by not paying. What are those ways? Thank you!

Now you are just being a troll. But you were that to being with, with the topic

Dolyem

So what you're saying is... Even if I completely destroy you in PvP and take all of your loot and successfully siege against your node... You still win if you look better than me while I do it?

Atama

Dolyem wrote: »

So what you're saying is... Even if I completely destroy you in PvP and take all of your loot and successfully siege against your node... You still win if you look better than me while I do it?

Dolyem

Me with mismatching skins on every armor slot

Evorith

Before BDO totally became P2W the fluffy Sexy outfits were one of the best sellers. So I understand were the OP is coming from. However I also see a need for the game to make a profit and those that want to have that must die for outfit buy it is ok. As long as you can over time get decent in game skins. Also that this shop doesn't become the norm and they add other P2S stuff.

Sweatycup

I like to pretend i'm a peasant and surprise attack other high level people.. am i winning? When can we get a tattered boring looking homeless look so i look like a newbie? On a more serious note the issue of p2w for skins has already been defined that those sets will not compare to the detail of a achievable set or armor/etc in-game. Not concerned. There is no swagger to bought cosmetic sets, most games people who hate the idea would just target you anyway in hate or dislike.

Atama

Sweatycup wrote: »

When can we get a tattered boring looking homeless look so i look like a newbie?

Just make a Tulnar.

KeeperBrGO

Okeydoke wrote: »

I'm so glad I was born in the 80's.

😳😳😳

Orym

@insomnia from a simple search the definition seems to be if there is an unfair advantage or something that enhances the player experience . Cosmetics, mounts, pets all kind of items might not give an unfair advantage but it surely gives an enhanced experience imo, don't you think?

Orym

@CROW3 you are short cutting linear progression when you don't have to do anything besides slide your credit card to get in-game items.

Please further explain what your understanding of what p2w has been/is.

Edit: So you don't agree that if something enhances the player experience its a form of p2w?
And also, yeah how dare I bring in terms lite having fun in games, lol . That is almost entirely the purpose of games, which is kind of the difference between sports and games, right?

insomnia

Orym wrote: »

@insomnia from a simple search the definition seems to be if there is an unfair advantage or something that enhances the player experience . Cosmetics, mounts, pets all kind of items might not give an unfair advantage but it surely gives an enhanced experience imo, don't you think?

What looks good, is a personal oppinion. So not really

Taleof2Cities

Orym wrote: »

Please further explain what your understanding of what p2w has been/is.

Just do an internet search on the definition of pay-to-win, @Orym, and paste it in your thread here.

That will show other forum-goers you aren't evading the topic.

Orym

@Taleof2Cities
According to Cyberdefinitions.com:
"PTW is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win" to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters).
P2W is a very controversial aspect of gaming, especially in MP (Multiplayer) games. Many players strongly object to people being able to pay to trump their own hard-earned experience or superior skills."

Key words here are advantage. Could be argued that it is an advantage of looking better + not having to do any content= time saver. And it also falls under the fact that it does "trump their own hard-earned experience".

According to someone on Urbandictionary:
"The sad proof that gaming is in its most dead and soul-less state so far.
Several games nowadays have the option to pay real money to enhance the experience of the player, often frustrating him unless he pays up.
Good ways to milk players of the money they thought they wouldn't spend in the game include: energy bars that reduce the time he can devote to his game, huge timers that need to be reduced for the player to be able to continue his journey, better gear to deal with players that don't want to pay, and, the most common one, the existence of a currency in the game that can't be earned without your credit card."

As i said before aswell the fact that you can "pay real money to enhance the experience of the player" does more than enough apply to all kinds of items you can only get by paying.

I don't think this P2W thing is as clear as you guys make it out to be. But please continue the conversation and let me know what you don't agree with, because im not convinced im totally wrong just yet

Dolyem

@Orym Nah, pay to win is definitely a mechanical advantage. If it was a beauty pageant then you may be on to something. But by the standards of gameplay and being able to defeat an enemy player or complete an objective or quest, aesthetics aren't a pay to win. It may suck for a completionist, but that style of gameplay isn't actually affecting anyone else in the game. A completionist chooses to complete everything, and in doing so it has zero affect on players around them, in other words it isn't a competition that directly affects the community. Pay to win implies buying an advantage over other players, which looking good isn't a qualifying factor of "winning" against another player.

Noaani

Orym wrote: »

Key words here are advantage. Could be argued that it is an advantage of looking better + not having to do any content= time saver.

It could be argued.

OK, argue it.

My point with this is that the point of doing content is to gain rewards to do more difficult content. The rewards of one set of content acting as a key for the next set of content.

As such, there is no content that you need to do for appearance.

Now, there may well be an appearance item you like the look of. However, since appearance is subjective, it is as likely that the appearance you like would be on early gear as it is that it will be on harder to obtain gear.

If you then opt to do content to get that look that the content offered, good for you.

On the other hand, if you just buy a look off the store and don't do that content, that is a choice you can make. Since you weren't going to do that content for the reason the content exists, it doesn't matter if you still don't do it.

If you wish to buy appearances and not do content, have at it.

If you want to do content and have more appearance, each with more variety, have at it.

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