Should There Be a Wait Time on Re-Selling Market Items, to Fight Inflation?

Yours truly realized that I was part of the problem, in SWTOR - which in this past year has seen *HORRIBLE* inflation: In "flipping" items on the market, we artificially drive up the prices of items on the player-markets.

It feels like this won't be as much of an issue in AoC, since the markets will be localized - but I'm predicting the norm will be for players to make trips to any Economic Node-cities anyways, when searching the markets for what they want.

If we put a wait on re-selling items bought from the markets, it won't *entirely* stop market-flippers - but it would discourage it. Got the idea from a video I watched about cities right now that are doing this on real estate, since it costs money to keep an empty property; it discourages house-flippers from driving up real estate prices in those cities to un-livable levels.

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Noaani

I don't think there is a need for it in Ashes.

The decentralized market will make it much harder for the price of anything to be inflated. Rather than buying items and just flipping them, the more common practice is likely to be buying items and reselling them in a different location.

George_Black

The issue you bring up is caused by production being too great for the demand.
And that is because most games allow 1 character to become master crafter in many professions.
These characters will then try to get rid or their products for ANY profit, no matter how low.
And then the big pockets win.

maouw

@Tyranthraxus
How do you imagine people pay for holding on to goods? It could work like the example, but there needs to be a price to pay like the people holding empty properties. (trade tax?)

I'm not a fan of the practice, but I also wonder if Steven WANTS price flipping in the game to have it influence the in-game stock market?

I think Noaani's idea only works with NPC vendored items coz that was specifically what beaushinkle and Azherae were disappointed about. If I find a rare sword, I'm going straight to the nearest Economic Metropolis where I'll be doing the rest of my shopping.
Still, it remains to be seen.

Karast

One thing to keep in mind is that many players actually enjoy playing the economic game in MMOs. Rather than grinding mats, they play the AH to make the cash they need to gear up. Flipping mats is an economic and game play driver since as prices for things like harvesting goods go up, more people go out to grind them, and then conflict over harvesting spots ensues.

My main concern will be to have a stable bottom for our in game economy and how Ashes will handle server population flux post launch. Servers with healthy populations tend to have healthy economies which help deal with issues like price inflation. You can corner the market on something like "iron" only to see people rush out to harvest in mass to make a quick buck. As long as you have a large enough population, you will see a healthy flux in market prices. It is when you have crashing server populations or population gaps "very few new / leveling players" that you really see these issues grow to become serious problems.

Enigmatic Sage

@Karast I find most of the people who play the AH are bots and greedy players who ruin economies and gameplay by overpricing things after buying out the market.

@Tyranthraxus It's not a bad idea having an item with a locked out for resale timer to prevent/deter bots and players doing this to the market. To be honest, I wouldn't necessarily be against fixed prices for items with a range allowance for inflation over time. I mentioned something similar in the how to defeat gold sellers thread as an idea based on region/biome vs resource as an example but there is lots that could be done with a system mechanic like this to ensure longevity in the game. Even thought with fixed prices, guild could have a private shop with a discounted fixed price range for only guild members that funds the guild at the guild hall/guild freehold.

Voidwalkers

Given the limits on housing you can have per character & per account, I hope that house flipping won't be practical in Ashes, and for other items a resell-timer seems odd (like, how to you explain it? The market staff casting a time-limited "unsellable" curse on every item sold?) & unnecessary to me.

From my trading experience in Eve Online:

- Flipping's only practical for rarer items with a really low supply. For other more common crafted / gathered items it's usually impractical (coz the stock gets replenished quickly), and the traders doing the flipping often gets trapped in a time consuming "0.01 war" (having to constantly adjust the price on their sell orders to stay competitive), which is ... not that fun. For me doing inter-hub trading was much more practical & profitable.

- I'm actually fine with rare items being expensive when flipped. If other common items temporarily became expensive due to flipping? Well just crank up the supply. (happy crafter here)

- While it's natural for ppl wanting to go to the major economic nodes in search for the cheapest deal, not all players can afford the travel time & risk to always do so. There'll always be ppl willing to pay more for the same items at remote, local markets, and there will always be ppl willing to sell their loot for less at local markets so they can quickly move onto the next hunt. And there will always be demand for traders & haulers to fill that gap.

Noaani

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Karast I find most of the people who play the AH are bots and greedy players who ruin economies and gameplay by overpricing things after buying out the market.

I find that most PvE players are greedy people that only care about getting the kill for themselves, don't care what anyone else wants, and ruin the game for others.

I find that most PvP players only care about killing other players, don't care a out a fair fight and ruin the game for others.

So, people that play the market fit right in with PvP'ers and PvE'ers as people that are in the game for themselves.

You can't claim one is bad without claiming all are bad.

As to botting, how you can claim that someone standing at the broker for hours looking through as many items and item types as they like, trying to find things they can buy low and sell high is a bot is beyond me.

What is it they are doing that makes you think they are botting? What would they do differently if they were not botting?

Enigmatic Sage

Noaani wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Karast I find most of the people who play the AH are bots and greedy players who ruin economies and gameplay by overpricing things after buying out the market.

I find that most PvE players are greedy people that only care about getting the kill for themselves, don't care what anyone else wants, and ruin the game for others.

I find that most PvP players only care about killing other players, don't care a out a fair fight and ruin the game for others.

So, people that play the market fit right in with PvP'ers and PvE'ers as people that are in the game for themselves.

You can't claim one is bad without claiming all are bad.

As to botting, how you can claim that someone standing at the broker for hours looking through as many items and item types as they like, trying to find things they can buy low and sell high is a bot is beyond me.

What is it they are doing that makes you think they are botting? What would they do differently if they were not botting?

you done?

Vhaeyne

No!

"What is the point in going into business f you can't corner the market?"-Quark, DS9

Real talk: Flipping is not as easy as you think @Tyranthraxus. There is a real art to it. You can just as easily mess it up and lose a lot of money. Especially when it's hard to control the supply (like in a game where there are a high number of gatherers.). There is real risk vs reward to trying to corner a market.

The decentralized economy is also going to make it harder. Not impossible with dedication and coordination, but harder for sure. I think you "may" see it on some servers if the population is low enough. I don't think it will be an issue unless populations are really bad.

Enigmatic Sage

@Vhaeyne bots/players could easily migrate from node to node to play the markets. There is lots of ways for them to farm gold off the market either solo or in groups. Not sure what you know about botting and markets but from what I have seen from in-game and IRL online shopping.. good luck, lol

Vhaeyne

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

@Vhaeyne bots/players could easily migrate from node to node to play the markets. There is lots of ways for them to farm gold off the market either solo or in groups. Not sure what you know about botting and markets but from what I have seen from in-game and IRL online shopping.. good luck, lol

It really depends on how well the GMs and players handle bots. IMO, it should be assumed that bots will not be a major issue.

Bots are not normally a major issue in games without safe zones.

Ideally, there will not be any bots due to a lack of safe zones and good reporting and detection.

Enigmatic Sage

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

@Vhaeyne bots/players could easily migrate from node to node to play the markets. There is lots of ways for them to farm gold off the market either solo or in groups. Not sure what you know about botting and markets but from what I have seen from in-game and IRL online shopping.. good luck, lol

It really depends on how well the GMs and players handle bots. IMO, it should be assumed that bots will not be a major issue.

Bots are not normally a major issue in games without safe zones.

Ideally, there will not be any bots due to a lack of safe zones and good reporting and detection.

I will say that you are quite optimistic. Don't know where you get this safe zone concept from. Some people just throw the bot on while they do other stuff on the computer where they can keep tabs on it. Helps them deal with GM's and what not poking around. They can still play while using the bot from what I have seen and experienced over the years (no I am not a botter). You could be surprised how much bots have ruined many genre's in gaming. Depends on the botters goals I suppose but it's not hard for them to work in groups to control markets on specific items especially when they can buy out each other to keep the items within the market. It sucks but it's the hard truth about gaming and bots.

Hopefully Intrepid does have something good planned for this game as it could be fucked by bots and gold sellers like the rest of the genre.

Vhaeyne

@Enigmatic Sage

I get the safe zone concept from the fact that there will be few safe zones in the game.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#Safe_zones

I have played in games where people kill bots on sight, then report them. Making it stupid to try and do anything productive with a bot.

These guys can just get rekt sitting at the market. They will get rekt trying to transfer things from market to market. They will get rekt trying to harvest mobs and resources.

People don't like bots and are often happy to go red for a little while to ruin a botters day.

So, players doing their part in tandem with GMs doing their part makes me optimistic that bots will be a problem. Never once had a problem with bots when you can kill them. It's only been an issue for me on servers or in places with opt in PvP.

Enigmatic Sage

@Vhaeyne I was relating your safe zone comment about bots, not some feature about the game.

They still have to figure out they're bots and if the trading markets are in the node then it looks like the guards will kill the players attacking the alleged bots.

I dont like bots either I'm just not willing to be ignorant about the problems in the gaming industry relating to them and game design.

Bot's just dont farm mobs, they have multiple purposes but I'm sure you're aware of that already.

Sure, players can do their part, IF they can. It's easy to report but can they prove it? I've had people report me for being a bot in some games when I'm grinding out materials. If people spam bot reports then the team still has to do all the work and effort as someone else mentioned. They still have to prove they're botting via legal methods. Reporting someone who is watching their bot may not solve anything depending on the function and design of the bot.

Botting is only get to worse as code monkeys will find a way as so many more people know coding in this day and age. It sucks but it's the truth about botting. I've seen bots flood games when new seasons start to get a ranking early on. I know in blizzard most of the grand-master leagues players are determined within the first couple weeks. If you dont make to grand-master within that period, it's basically hopeless to get into it.

Vhaeyne

@Enigmatic Sage

In addition to players handling bots. The GMs will have tools to see abnormal wealth transfers.

I don't see this on the Wiki anymore, but I know it was once there. Steven talked about how if a player all of a sudden had a windfall of currency or items in the mail or traded to them. All parties involved would be flagged for manual review without knowing it.

Steven also said that he is going to not reveal the details of all of the security tools they plan on using for bot detection. There is a tone of annoyance in Steven's voice when he talks about bot detection that makes me confident it's a priority in Ashes.

I will admit that I could be overly optimistic here, but based on my past experience with games without safe zones and Steven's statements regarding bots. I feel pretty confident that botting will only be a minor issue for Ashes.

It is a major issue for Blizzard because Blizzard likes the consistent sub money they get from bots. I think there was explicit proof of this when all of the gallywixs stuff went down a while back, but I am not going to dig for it. I don't doubt Blizzard would turn a blind eye to bots for a second.

Enigmatic Sage

@Vhaeyne a lot of companies have ways to "handle" bots, yet, there they are. Like anything else, they'll find ways to be less detectable.

are we really going to have this back and forth? lol

Vhaeyne

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

are we really going to have this back and forth? lol

It's up to you? I was under the impression this has been a civil back and forth.

My bar for civil might be tainted, though...

Enigmatic Sage

@Vhaeyne I'm not mad, I just don't really see it going anywhere if I am being honest. Just feels like mansplaining for people reading.

Gold sellers and botting have a good chance of being a risk to AoC regardless of what Steven says. There is no evidence they can prevent against bots let alone any reason to believe it. All I have seen is botting get worse in games and people finding ways to make it less detectable. If they get caught, they find ways to do it better. It's not just about anti-botting but how game design can deter it as well.

Maybe the genre is going down a shit covered path as developers try to stay in the safe lane with familiarity and design for sales or whatever other reasons. I'm quite skeptical lately about the future of MMORPG's with all the claims developers make but do not deliver on.

Noaani

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

@Vhaeyne I'm not mad, I just don't really see it going anywhere if I am being honest. Just feels like mansplaining for people reading.

Gold sellers and botting have a good chance of being a risk to AoC regardless of what Steven says. There is no evidence they can prevent against bots let alone any reason to believe it. All I have seen is botting get worse in games and people finding ways to make it less detectable. If they get caught, they find ways to do it better. It's not just about anti-botting but how game design can deter it as well.

Maybe the genre is going down a shit covered path as developers try to stay in the safe lane with familiarity and design for sales or whatever other reasons. I'm quite skeptical lately about the future of MMORPG's with all the claims developers make but do not deliver on.

I'm still really curious as to how you know it's botting.

Botting in combat is fairly easy to spot on a games logs, but not only is botting on the market hard to spot, it is also really uncommon due to how easy it is to send a player bankrupt if they are using a bot.

Enigmatic Sage

Noaani wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

@Vhaeyne I'm not mad, I just don't really see it going anywhere if I am being honest. Just feels like mansplaining for people reading.

Gold sellers and botting have a good chance of being a risk to AoC regardless of what Steven says. There is no evidence they can prevent against bots let alone any reason to believe it. All I have seen is botting get worse in games and people finding ways to make it less detectable. If they get caught, they find ways to do it better. It's not just about anti-botting but how game design can deter it as well.

Maybe the genre is going down a shit covered path as developers try to stay in the safe lane with familiarity and design for sales or whatever other reasons. I'm quite skeptical lately about the future of MMORPG's with all the claims developers make but do not deliver on.

I'm still really curious as to how you know it's botting.

Botting in combat is fairly easy to spot on a games logs, but not only is botting on the market hard to spot, it is also really uncommon due to how easy it is to send a player bankrupt if they are using a bot.

Correct, botting is common in trade markets and relatively more difficult to detect. I never said it's only botting. The rest is self-explanatory.

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