Controversial: Augmentation might be a bad idea if set to 25 and later

First of all let me asure you that i personally think that augments are a nice idea. However, i fear for its design implementation if not done properly

What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance their isa major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay.

A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player.

Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously.

Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point.

Example:
You love playing elves, and you want to be a bad ass fighter with a bow. But up until level 25 you cannot augment your skills to be workable with a bow. While you enjoy your fighter, something is missing so at lvl 20you reroll ranger. You've spend about 20 hours into the game, and being an average player this has taken you between one or 2 weeks of real time. You've rerolled Ranger, again an elf, and you are enjoying your archery lifestyle. your slightly faster in leveling this time and just before your monthly subscription is up you reach high enough level to gain access to your secondary archtype. You enjoy augmenting your skills but then realize something that basically made you abandon your first character. after lvl 25 you could finally augment your skills with skills appropriate to how you actually wanted to play. Upset you decide not to resub scribe for next month. because the "stupid game should have let you do it from the get go"

And this is where i think that Ashes augment system might fall short. It starts for the average player a week or 2 after creating your class, and fundamentally changes it. Your class becomes a total new class (literally) with new options and playstyles. And while this is in one way good, its also bad in a way. The average gamer decides in the first 2 hours if they like a game or not. Not after 20 or 40 hours of playing. The average gamer also tries out different classes, to get a feel of the playstyle. They don't appreciate that you can completely change a playstyle only after 20 + hours.

So what can Ashes do to prevent this?
There are numerous ways.
Allow players to immediately augment their skills, so they understand the interface and that your secondary archtype will gratly enhance this later on. Each player should have racial augments that affect their skills from th start. Maybe the race has 1 or 2 favorite weapons and can alter the skills to be used trough those weapons, or a favorite damage type and can augment to that damage type.. In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype.

After much discussions i've included a list of what different people want augments to be able to do:
Augments should:
Retain the primary archetypes role
Offer a way to change playstyle while retaining the role
Might lead to having to use different gear
Some want augments to have major effects
Some want augments to have minor effects

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daveywavey

George Black wrote: »

No matter what the result is, switching secondary should be challenging, maybe even require a whole group to complete the quest.

A full set of 8 different drops, only gatherable/lootable from each of the separate archetypes? Maybe with an extra of the one that you're wanting to add? Along with some sort of questy stuff, of course.

Aerlana

Azherae wrote: »

Aren't some of y'all relatively high/top players in other games? Have you never 'had the irritation of practicing a character for months only to get nerfed so bad you had to change to and practice a new one'? (I wish there was a different way to ask this question because I know it is just gonna get that dismissive 'it's not the same' answer, but I can't be bothered, so I'll accept whatever comes)

Even as officier i never forced reroll, also never played in world first competition.
People changed specialisation

And yes, "not the same" :

If you take a fighter, hoping being a magical range damage dealer, you are dumb.
When i go on MMORPG, i look the class descrption, to understand their core logic. What they are build around (i like support, heal, pet and dot, so look for such things)
If people do choices just because "the name seems cool" and the "flavour description seems cool" it is their problem.
I expect myself, friends and community to communicate, help each other for such choices. But such choices needs first to understand what you personally wants. You can know it only with experience. The more you play your character, the more you know what you dislike/like (and how to modify/improve it)

if you take a fighter, train it, and get it nerf, you have to suffer a change in the game that was just a "maybe" (or sometime even not) . . . And no one expect you to read on crystall balls.

Also, i prefer ask devs to have a clear description of each main archetype, to allow any newcomer to clearly know what are each strength and weakness. (toughness, mobility, damages, support etc) and specifics shits (dot, fast shoot or slow + heavy damages etc etc) than getting a lvl 10 specialisation while they have lot of the game to learn yet before a less important choice. Also, the longer people will play only primary archetype, the more in the "main archetype" mind they will get, making easier to understand how they want to improve it (getting more damages ? more sustain ? mobility ? etc).

If each 64 class where "real" class like we use this word in most other MMORPG, i would totally speak different. But here, it will be 8 group of 8 specialisations, (if we consider how devs presents augments and what really secundary archetype are)
Most people defending an early choice consider this second archetype choice will be a major thing... no. you can change...
And if you dislike your character with either of the 8 choices, the problem is not "you had to wait untill 25 to chose" but "why did you play a character you dislike such long time? "

Finally, waiting lvl25 as i said allow people to better understand the primary archetype, and have a better insight on how they want to modify/improve it. Changing second archetype won't be just some click, the less people have to do it to find what they like, better it is... And how to avoid to test too many second archetype ? ... By Knowing what you want...

Kesthely

Thi thing i don't understand is some of your peoples attitudes.

On the one hand you expect Ashes to be this new game, that beats all existing mmo's and revolutionizes the genre. But at the same time you expect that one of its core features, the secondary archtype to be only minor changes? What gives?

When i read the archtype descriptions, and i see that i can play a fighter / ranger, i expect my fighter to be able to be ranged. When i make it a fighter / mage, i expect it to have my abilities be infused with magic, turning some or all of its damage to magical. I also expect that the fighter Ranger will need different gear then the Fighter / mage. I do not expect it them to be indistinguishable from a fight/fighter.

To me it seems an apathic approach. Other MMO's failed to be innovative in character development, so Ashes also isn't going to be innovative. If you all expect the secondary choice to be so minor, why bother with secondary archetypes in the first place!

I'm sorry but i thing that those who think its going to be a minor change, can't deal with the thought that they might have to think about the choices they will have in game.

To those that think it will be close to the base archtype i urge you to watch the pathfinder sessions intrepid does. Ashes afterall is based on a world designed by @Steven Sharif in that system. Then watch at the crazy builds they thought off, and imagine how those builds can be made with the double archtype system.

SirChancelot

Noaani wrote: »

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

That's an assumption on your part. If someone is new to an MMO they're learning how to move, how to pick up and turn in quests, how to use the quest log, and the character interface to equip gear. Sure second nature to us, but that's all learning stuff about the game.

You use mage/bard. But how about mage fighter? That hopefully is two entirely different playstyles that would require you to build your character in a different way. Who what's to spend 20+ hrs learning to be your stereotypical mage when at 25 I'm hopefully switching to an in your face melee battlemage.

And you know my feelings on mage/tank, I'd love to see those augments shift then enough to actually tank content. That again is a huge shift in the way the archtype plays

This is why earlier I said it depends on the scale of what augments can do...

Yeah, if someone is new to MMO's they do have some additional learning to do. All of that is usually done in the first two levels though. It isn't stuff that is hard to grasp.

It's actually experienced MMO players that will have a harder time learning the node system, as it isn't really like anything else in any popular games. Since the node system affects which quests you have available, which NPC services you have available, which mobs, dungeons, loot, crafting facilities etc you have available, it needs to be taught to players properly and early.

It is the most important thing Intrepid need to communicate to players.

As to the classes you are talking about - no, they won't play all that different.

Both a mage/bard and a mage/fighter play as if they are mages, because that is what they are. If you want something that plays different, you change the base.

As a point to illustrate this - you could be a mage/bard and I could be a mage/fighter, but if we both use augments from other sources (social organizations, religions, race etc), we could effectively be identical.

I know that's what some people are saying. But I'm still holding out hope that it has more of an impact than that...
Honestly if it really makes such a little difference they could definitely introduce it sooner since it would not be that much to chew on...

AKA if a mage/bard and mage/fighter are that indistinguishable from each other, then the secondary system will be 'meh' altogether...

Kesthely wrote: »

Thi thing i don't understand is some of your peoples attitudes.

On the one hand you expect Ashes to be this new game, that beats all existing mmo's and revolutionizes the genre. But at the same time you expect that one of its core features, the secondary archtype to be only minor changes? What gives?

When i read the archtype descriptions, and i see that i can play a fighter / ranger, i expect my fighter to be able to be ranged. When i make it a fighter / mage, i expect it to have my abilities be infused with magic, turning some or all of its damage to magical. I also expect that the fighter Ranger will need different gear then the Fighter / mage. I do not expect it them to be indistinguishable from a fight/fighter.

To me it seems an apathic approach. Other MMO's failed to be innovative in character development, so Ashes also isn't going to be innovative. If you all expect the secondary choice to be so minor, why bother with secondary archetypes in the first place!

I'm sorry but i thing that those who think its going to be a minor change, can't deal with the thought that they might have to think about the choices they will have in game.

To those that think it will be close to the base archtype i urge you to watch the pathfinder sessions intrepid does. Ashes afterall is based on a world designed by @Steven Sharif in that system. Then watch at the crazy builds they thought off, and imagine how those builds can be made with the double archtype system.

I'm on your side, I'm really hoping the secondary has a much greater impact on the primary choice.

Percimes

Armour and weapons are not restricted by archetypes.

If your plan is to go mage/fighter for the melee, nothing force you to wear a robe and use a staff (although I'd say the pointy hat is a must, fashion tradition oblige) before level 25, you can start early on with heavier armour and a sword, prioritizing the use of your close range spells.

Getting the right stat bonus on your gear might be a little trickier, requiring custom orders from crafters, or, at worse, having non optimal gear, mismatching types for hybrid stats (the hat! The pointy hat!)

So far I don't see why you'd be prevented to be a close range mage.

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

Thi thing i don't understand is some of your peoples attitudes.

On the one hand you expect Ashes to be this new game, that beats all existing mmo's and revolutionizes the genre. But at the same time you expect that one of its core features, the secondary archtype to be only minor changes? What gives?

"What gives" is that this isn't one of the games core features, nor something overly unique to Ashes.

The node system is the only real thing setting Ashes apart from other MMO's.

Noaani

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

I know that's what some people are saying. But I'm still holding out hope that it has more of an impact than that...
Honestly if it really makes such a little difference they could definitely introduce it sooner since it would not be that much to chew on...

AKA if a mage/bard and mage/fighter are that indistinguishable from each other, then the secondary system will be 'meh' altogether...

If the game didn't have other more important things to go over with the player, then yeah, they could go in to secondary classes sooner.

However, as I have said, they have the node system to go over with players, and that is the thing that distinguishes Ashes from other MMO's.

The class system is not something that distinguishes Ashes from other games. There are many other games where you pick multiple classes to build your specific class. Ashes handles this concept a little differently to other games, but that is about it.

I think perhaps this thread is a result of some people mistakenly thinking the class system is a key aspect of the game.

It is not.

The class system is essentially Ashes ticking a marketing box. More classes are all the rage in marketing MMO's, so saying you have 64 classes when you really have 8 classes each with 8 primary builds is just marketing - as long as you give each build a name you can call it a class.

Noaani

George Black wrote: »

No matter what the result is, switching secondary should be challenging, maybe even require a whole group to complete the quest.

I disagree.

It should be fairly easy, but have a timer on it (a few hours, honestly).

If it is too hard to switch secondary class (which is to say, to switch build), then people will pick a single build and stick with it. This build will be a PvP focused build, obviously (if you can only have one build in Ashes, it will be a good build for PvP).

Essentially, making it hard to change build will mean fewer builds will exist in the game.

Allowing players to more readily alter their build will mean they can use a build specific to the situation in which they are expecting to find themselves.

If they are going out soloing, they can run a good build for that. If they are going out for a guild war and know they will have a lot of support around them, they can run a build for that. If they are going out to PvE and don't expect any PvP, they can run a different build again.

To me, this sounds like a FAR more interesting game than one where people select a build and never change it.

If it were a matter of secondary class altering a players role, I'd potentially agree that it should be really hard. However, since Steven has said multiple times that this is not the case, that your primary class dictates your role, I don't see any valid reason for putting obstacles in the way of a mage with a DPS build altering their build to a slightly different DPS build.

Since that is all secondary class will do in Ashes, I don't see why there should be too much of a barrier.

overfitneuralnet

I think when it comes to switching the secondary class, Steven has said that it will have a cooldown period (2 weeks is something that's flying around in my head) and that you will be required to do some kind of a quest for a certificate or something like that. Of course these things can change *shrugs*

Aerlana

For swiching secundary archetype : he also said it would cost (time, money, etc)
The change have to be quite easy, but not able to do often : choices have to matter. But you have to adapt to your group... Even more considering people will begin alone or with just some friends, and then go in a guild or a larger group, where they will find other way to be usefull with main archetype.

As said by nooani, the secundary archetype is not a core feature, that make the game different from others.
Play destrolock and afflilock in wow, you will have a same class but 2 different gameplay. Shards will have different use and generation, also, one is more about direct damage, the other more about dots. It will be this kind of difference between 2 class from the same main archetype IF we consider what is already said about this system.

Augments wont be transformation of class skills. In fighter/mage, the charge skill from fighter wont become an ability to fly, but a blink. instead of running/rushing fast on the target, it will teleport. It remains the same core skill (getting in melee with your target) but with a different impact on gameplay (while blinking, you avoid all area between you and target ! ). Now, we could imagine the ranger will allow the charge to do a snare effect... you have to pass thru potential area of effect but ennemy won't move for a short amount of time.

Also, you speak about range, melee . . .You focus on class, and class skills. BUT we know that any character can equip any armor and any weapon.
You can do a mage with 2 handed sword, and a fighter with a bow.
Also, weapon will also have weapon skills.
You can do fighter/fighter OR fighter/mage OR fighter/ranger all three with bow.
They won't be the same, as said, the augment will affect how their class skill will be usefull.

A fighter/mage won't be a whole new class far from a fighter/fighter. But both will have their own specific strength and flaw. As said, play fighter, see what you like/dislike, and see what pack of augment can improve this. Some people could complain about mobility, other about sustain, or other about damages. This is where chosing well secundary archetype will have impact. it won't create a new character, but it will change strength/flaw of the base character.

To finish my part in this topic (except if there is some question/remark needing me to speak again) :

We know only little about how the game will work, we only saw 3 archetype, and far from a final state. only few weapons, not even one skill weapon. No augment (neither from secundary archetype ... or from race ! )
Alpha 2 should give us far more insight about all these.
I and Nooani defend the state announced now, you want a change. And all we have to argument is what was said already. nothing from experience, from what we saw, what we feeled while playing.
This is i think an interesting question to have, but will be able to have a more interesting and decent discussion in alpha 2

Also, AoC won't beat all other MMORPG, and won't totally revolutionnizes the genre. A large part of mmorpg population will totally dislike this game for a simple reason : never safe from PvP. Long leveling. no teleport to get fast from a point to another. etc etc. All those thing, many here does not want to see in AoC are the reason WoW grew again and again, why FFXIV is such a commercial success, and ESO is also a strong one.
AoC is closer to what MMORPG was before all those things. This is what many here like, and what lot of customers never tried, and will run away from after getting in.

daveywavey

Kesthely wrote: »

Thi thing i don't understand is some of your peoples attitudes.

On the one hand you expect Ashes to be this new game, that beats all existing mmo's and revolutionizes the genre. But at the same time you expect that one of its core features, the secondary archtype to be only minor changes? What gives?

It's supposed to be a return to classic MMO-style gaming. From before the studio execs and shareholders weighed in and ruined them all.

Noaani

daveywavey wrote: »

Kesthely wrote: »

Thi thing i don't understand is some of your peoples attitudes.

On the one hand you expect Ashes to be this new game, that beats all existing mmo's and revolutionizes the genre. But at the same time you expect that one of its core features, the secondary archtype to be only minor changes? What gives?

It's supposed to be a return to classic MMO-style gaming. From before the studio execs and shareholders weighed in and ruined them all.

Indeed.

The closest thing to a "core aspect" of the game the class system fulfils is the notion that your primary class is your role.

There is no tank build that is for DPS - there may be a tank build that is more DPS, but pick up groups are not going to be looking for a tank DPS.

Same with fighters. If you are a fighter, you are DPS. You are not a tank, you are not a healer.

This is bringing things back to how they were 20 years ago or so - and is the only aspect of the entire class system that I would consider to be a "core feature of the game".

Kesthely

daveywavey wrote: »

It's supposed to be a return to classic MMO-style gaming. From before the studio execs and shareholders weighed in and ruined them all.

The thing i remember most about early MMO's is that they allowed you to create your own version of your character. Example in shadow bane you could make a wizard that specialized on an attack that returned some stamina back, one of the races had a flight mechanic that continuously drained stamina, as the mage specialized with that spell you could fly for a lot longer as long as you were attacking enemies with it. It did less damage then other options, but you were a lot safer.

In DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) you could make all kinds of builds. I once made a elven paladin that was focused on a bow, and became an arcane archer.
a bard that became a verry proficient healer, and so on and so on.

World of warcraft has made it so that everything continuously got simplified, to the point where you now get one choice every 15 levels, out of 3 things, and its really just a choice between pve, pvp or utility. For most the "choices" aren't even choices there.

I'm worried that people expect a similar "not a real choice" mentality for the secondary archetypes. Something, that is in direct contrast to the "return of old school mmo's" because if the changes are going to be minor, there will be "optimized builds, a stagnant meta, and a continuation of the current gamer mentality to min max everything.. With only minor changes there will never be that situation where a fighter cleric is far superior over a fighter mage, and vice versa, and you end op everyone picking the holistic choice. With minor changes, eventually each primary class will be come Fighter with X in 95% of the situations.

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

a continuation of the current gamer mentality to min max everything.

Min/maxing in MMO's has been around since last millennium.

It is not a "new" thing, or just a "current" thing.

Also, the three games you have listed are all later games than what Intrepid are trying to bring back. In may respects, they are bringing back gameplay elements introduced in the 90's, not the early or mid 2000's.

Aerlana

Kesthely wrote: »

World of warcraft has made it so that everything continuously got simplified, to the point where you now get one choice every 15 levels, out of 3 things, and its really just a choice between pve, pvp or utility. For most the "choices" aren't even choices there.

I'm worried that people expect a similar "not a real choice" mentality for the secondary archetypes. Something, that is in direct contrast to the "return of old school mmo's" because if the changes are going to be minor, there will be "optimized builds, a stagnant meta, and a continuation of the current gamer mentality to min max everything.. With only minor changes there will never be that situation where a fighter cleric is far superior over a fighter mage, and vice versa, and you end op everyone picking the holistic choice. With minor changes, eventually each primary class will be come Fighter with X in 95% of the situations.

you consider wow vanilla as "old school" and put this kind of mmorpg in opposition in mmorpg with minmaxing...
Vanilla had a lot minmaxing... there wasn't real choice for builds, it is not because people did what they prefer that they was playing good things... You had the core build with 80% of talent point or more you could'nt really change without getting less optimised...

If AoC continue the way they announced, there will be more customisation than wow vanilla. I think it can compete with everquest totally.
for each main archetype, you will have to chose weapon between 15 different weapon (each with their weaponskill set) and one between 8 secundary archetype.

You go from one extrem side (each of 64 class will have a real unique identity) to another.
fighter/mage and fighter/tank will be a fighter... but not the same. The first will have more damages, possibility to have dot maybe (fire augments?) and will have elemental damages. The other will probably have mitigation making it tougher... And there i don't even consider how each weapon and the weapon skills will interact there... Also, add augments from races... (fighter tulnar and fighter dwarf ? again some difference)
We are not saying we have choice between 8 character, far from it. we just say, there is not 64 classes in the same way we consider classes in FFXIV, WoW, ESO or any modern MMORPG

I did minmaxing 20 years ago, before having internet.
Why wow vanilla was less about "the op talent tree" than modern MMORPG ? because now we trade all information, and look for all information. Theorycrafting community are bigger, more invested, communicate more.

Kesthely

Aerlana wrote: »

you consider wow vanilla as "old school" and put this kind of mmorpg in opposition in mmorpg with minmaxing...
Vanilla had a lot minmaxing... there wasn't real choice for builds, it is not because people did what they prefer that they was playing good things... You had the core build with 80% of talent point or more you could'nt really change without getting less optimised...

You understand me wrong, i dont consider Warcraft as an MMORPG, i blame WoW for the decline of it from an MMORPG into a MMO hack and slash, into a hack and slash with sometimes encountering other people in the later expansions. But to its immense popularity all other MMORPG's followed its suit. in current MMORPG's there's little to no RPG to be found.

Aerlana wrote: »

You go from one extrem side (each of 64 class will have a real unique identity) to another.

Another false interpretation. I want the classes to feel different. and not with fighter/cleric you'll be able to add a little bit of holy damage and with fighter/mage you'll add a little bit of fire damage. and that that is ALL the difference the 2 choices bring. Keeping in the wow analogy since most people know that game, i imagine the secondary classes to be as different as different specs. for example Cleric/mage would be a shadow priest, Cleric/Bard would be a discipline priest, and Cleric/Cleric would be a holy priest. Still clerics, but each of the secondary classes would be more proficient with boosting a different subset of the clerics arsenal, and thus prioritize a different playstyle. One of the inspirations of Ashes is Lineage II wich has 31 classes. even wow has 12 classes. Your telling me that Ashes will become more bland class wise then WoW?

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

i imagine the secondary classes to be as different as different specs. for example Cleric/mage would be a shadow priest, Cleric/Bard would be a discipline priest, and Cleric/Cleric would be a holy priest.

This is the part of newer MMO's that Intrepid are trying to get rid of.

A Disciple and Holy priest in WoW are both healers, a Shadow priest is DPS.

In Ashes, a cleric is a healer regardless of secondary.

While L2 is indeed an inspiration for Ashes, it is only one of several games that heavily influence it (it isn't even the game that seems to provide the most inspiration, honestly). While L2 has 31 classes on paper, in reality it has 9, and ever so slightly alters these 9 for different races, gives them different names and then is able to call them each a class.

As to your comparison to WoW, again it is WoW's "respec to be any role you want" that is what Intrepid are specifically trying to avoid in Ashes. As in, the entire point of the game is to NOT be like WoW.

If you consider a game that has 8 different classes each with 8 different build paths available to every race to be more bland than WoW's "be whatever you want", or L2's "9 classes but lets call it 31, but also limit which class you can be based on your race", then I'm not quite sure what to tell you.

Kesthely

Noaani wrote: »

If you consider a game that has 8 different classes each with 8 different build paths available to every race to be more bland than WoW's "be whatever you want", or L2's "9 classes but lets call it 31, but also limit which class you can be based on your race", then I'm not quite sure what to tell you.

the thing is that is what you'll get if your content with secondary archetypes being just minor differences or side grades of the main arch type. you'll get 8 classes but lets call it 64 classes. And each of those 8 classes will be like wow's "be whatever you want" syndrome.

World of warcraft is the perfect example of what NOT to do in an MMO. at that time (2004) wow was unique, it allowed a more casual audience to enjoy MMO's but they took "user friendliness" and "balance" to far, so its hardly recognizable as an MMO or an RPG anymore.

Ashes is trying to go back to the MMORPG stage where your decisions are meaningful. What you don't want is it to be just minor alterations, because then your decisions won't be meaningful at all.

In Ashes every decision will be meaningful. What area you want to go to so that one gets xp as you do your stuff, it will depend which nodes grow, and how fast, it will unlock certain things based on the node type, and it will be depended on the players what kind of buildings will be build in what order, by node growth more content will be unlocked, And so on And so on. All based on your decision of what your going to do. Then you add additional systems on top of that which synergize with it, Crafting that require different people to help unlock the most powerful stuff, a faith system that might make each node unique in a different way, etc etc.

And then you want to have a class where the decision how your character, the most important "resource" in the game from a player perspective, only has minor changes to differentiate between other players.

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

Ashes is trying to go back to the MMORPG stage where your decisions are meaningful. What you don't want is it to be just minor alterations, because then your decisions won't be meaningful at all.

The most meaningful decision about your class in Ashes is your primary class. It determines your role.

Your secondary class adds flavor, and perhaps some side utility to that role, but your role remains.

The suggestions you have been making in this thread amount to your secondary class altering your role. Whether that is what you mean or not, it is what you have been saying.

If Ashes did this, if it allowed every primary class to have two or more roles it could fulfill, then that demeans the decision you made about your primary class.

In order for a decision to be meaningful, you have to be missing out on something.

Since we can swap out secondary classes, players are not missing out on anything, regardless of the choice they make here. As such, your secondary class choice can never be meaningful.

Your primary class choice, however, can.

SirChancelot

Noaani wrote: »

In Ashes, a cleric is a healer regardless of secondary.

Meanwhile I'm just over here hoping this doesn't turn out to be the case...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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