Controversial: Augmentation might be a bad idea if set to 25 and later

First of all let me asure you that i personally think that augments are a nice idea. However, i fear for its design implementation if not done properly

What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance their isa major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay.

A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player.

Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously.

Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point.

Example:
You love playing elves, and you want to be a bad ass fighter with a bow. But up until level 25 you cannot augment your skills to be workable with a bow. While you enjoy your fighter, something is missing so at lvl 20you reroll ranger. You've spend about 20 hours into the game, and being an average player this has taken you between one or 2 weeks of real time. You've rerolled Ranger, again an elf, and you are enjoying your archery lifestyle. your slightly faster in leveling this time and just before your monthly subscription is up you reach high enough level to gain access to your secondary archtype. You enjoy augmenting your skills but then realize something that basically made you abandon your first character. after lvl 25 you could finally augment your skills with skills appropriate to how you actually wanted to play. Upset you decide not to resub scribe for next month. because the "stupid game should have let you do it from the get go"

And this is where i think that Ashes augment system might fall short. It starts for the average player a week or 2 after creating your class, and fundamentally changes it. Your class becomes a total new class (literally) with new options and playstyles. And while this is in one way good, its also bad in a way. The average gamer decides in the first 2 hours if they like a game or not. Not after 20 or 40 hours of playing. The average gamer also tries out different classes, to get a feel of the playstyle. They don't appreciate that you can completely change a playstyle only after 20 + hours.

So what can Ashes do to prevent this?
There are numerous ways.
Allow players to immediately augment their skills, so they understand the interface and that your secondary archtype will gratly enhance this later on. Each player should have racial augments that affect their skills from th start. Maybe the race has 1 or 2 favorite weapons and can alter the skills to be used trough those weapons, or a favorite damage type and can augment to that damage type.. In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype.

After much discussions i've included a list of what different people want augments to be able to do:
Augments should:
Retain the primary archetypes role
Offer a way to change playstyle while retaining the role
Might lead to having to use different gear
Some want augments to have major effects
Some want augments to have minor effects

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Noaani

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In Ashes, a cleric is a healer regardless of secondary.

Meanwhile I'm just over here hoping this doesn't turn out to be the case...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You are - of course - welcome to hope what ever you like.

However, in a game where the developers have specifically said "when you pick a primary class, that IS your role", it is fairly safe to assume that when you pick a primary class, that is your role.

The only exception Intrepid seem to be potentially considering to this is the Summoner.

SirChancelot

Noaani wrote: »

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In Ashes, a cleric is a healer regardless of secondary.

Meanwhile I'm just over here hoping this doesn't turn out to be the case...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You are - of course - welcome to hope what ever you like.

However, in a game where the developers have specifically said "when you pick a primary class, that IS your role", it is fairly safe to assume that when you pick a primary class, that is your role.

The only exception Intrepid seem to be potentially considering to this is the Summoner.

And they have said that augments can drastically change abilities. And there is nothing saying those won't change their role.

Honestly if it doesn't have that level of impact then it doesn't matter when they introduce it since it won't be changing anything...

Noaani

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

And they have said that augments can drastically change abilities. And there is nothing saying those won't change their role.

What they have said is that Aug.ents can drastically change an ability, but not a role.

A mages nuke will always be a nuke, regardless of augment. A healers heal will always be a heal. A tanks block will always be a block.

SirChancelot

Noaani wrote: »

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

And they have said that augments can drastically change abilities. And there is nothing saying those won't change their role.

What they have said is that Aug.ents can drastically change an ability, but not a role.

A mages nuke will always be a nuke, regardless of augment. A healers heal will always be a heal. A tanks block will always be a block.

They haven't said that though... Not that I've seen. They haven't mentioned roles and augments at all.
Honestly they have very few examples of the range at which augments can change an ability at all.

If intrepid wants to they could easily use this system to make roles more flexible among archtypes, which is what I'm hoping they do.

As I said though, if it doesn't have the ability to change stuff that much, then it doesn't matter when it is introduced... Could be level 10 or at level cap.

Noaani

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

If intrepid wants to they could easily use this system to make roles more flexible among archtypes, which is what I'm hoping they do.

Yes, if they wanted to they could.

The thing is, they don't want to.

They want your choices to matter.

When you chose your primary class, you are choosing your role. If you can change your role just by changing your secondary class, then your choice in regards to primary class means nothing.

That is specifically what Intrepid have said - the comment about your primary class being your role is a quote from Steven.

Kesthely

Noaani wrote: »

The suggestions you have been making in this thread amount to your secondary class altering your role. Whether that is what you mean or not, it is what you have been saying.

Not altering role, altering playstyle. Eg a Fighter (DPS) goes from playstyle Melee dps to Ranged dps if choosing Fighter/Ranger or from pure physical to hybrid or magical from Fighter/Mage. Those are different playstyles while retaining your DPS role.

If you can't change the playstyle of the primary archetype, then what's the point of including some of the secondary's. If you don't want a melee class to become ranged, there shouldn't be an option to pick the ranger as a secondary playstyle.

In my vision of Ashes, a group consists of 1 of every class. But sometimes you can't find a ranger, but you do have a fighter/ranger or rogue/ranger that specialized as ranged. You have the Ranged Physical DPS role that way. The class retains its role (dps) and the group retains its playstyle (Ranged physical dps)

Edit for clarification: I don't want a Fighter / Cleric to be able to heal others, i would like the fighter/cleric to have more sustain in the form of choosing some or all of its abilities to be able to self heal

Noaani wrote: »

The thing is, they don't want to.

You don't know that. The information the've given on the augment system and the impact of the secondary archetypes remains vague at best. Most likely because they only have a concept, and not a first draft of it.

Before they go drafting on that (if they haven't already) it might be good to know what the community wants.
Here is a few things thats been said troughout the threat and that might be included in augments

Augments should:
Retain the primary archetypes role
Offer a way to change playstyle while retaining the role
Might lead to having to use different gear
Some want augments to have major effects
Some want augments to have minor effects

I'm going to edit the "augments should" section int the OP. Plz add onto that list by saying what according to you augments should do (preferably in the form of "Augments should: (your opinion) so iits clear that you want to include it in the list)

Enigmatic Sage

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Augments
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes

A player chooses their primary archetype at the start of the game.[3][7]
A player cannot change their primary archetype.[8][1]
Players receive skill points as they level. These can be used to level up skills within their skill tree.[9]
It will not be possible to max all skills in a skill tree.[9]
A player may choose a secondary archetype when they reach level 25.[3] The combination of primary and secondary archetypes is referred to as a class.[3][1][4]
The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[10]
Secondary archetypes may be changed, but not "on-the-fly".[8][11]
The player can then augment their primary skills with effects from their secondary archetype.[3][7]
Each skill in the primary tree will have several augment options from the secondary tree. This is an example of horizontal progression.[7]
Augments to primary skills can fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary archetype/class.[12]

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

Not altering role, altering playstyle. Eg a Fighter (DPS) goes from playstyle Melee dps to Ranged dps if choosing Fighter/Ranger or from pure physical to hybrid or magical from Fighter/Mage. Those are different playstyles while retaining your DPS role.

If this is what you are wanting to communicate, why would you talk about a class where you change your role from healer to DPS?

if you go back through this thread, literally everyone is telling you that augments do not allow you to alter your role, that this is set by your primary class. Why has it taken you this long to decide to say that this isn't what you are talking about?

McMackMuck

SunScript wrote: »

Jahlon wrote: »

From reading your entire OP, you clearly don't have any clue as to how Ashes of Creation is going to function. I would highly suggest hitting up the wiki and/or https://ashes101.com/combat#overview in order to learn how the game is actually designed. 95% of your concerns aren't valid because they don't even exist in what Intrepid is planning.

And this is how you decided to troll people into reading your website? No tantalizing crumbs, no actual argument, just tearing people down? Big oof.

I'm not sure if I'm quoting him directly or paraphrasing:
"Facts don't care about your feelings and neither does Jahlon"
It's how he is, it's nothing personal, he just doesn't sugar coat what he has to say. To anyone.
I find that refreshing because I value the truth. His post is his honest assessment of the facts followed by a helpful link; not trolling as I don't believe he intended to deliberately provoke a response. More like "OP is wrong on many levels, go do homework".
If you want to dispute the facts, or your assessment of them has a different conclusion, then I'm sure he'd be happy to have a fact based discussion with anyone. Just leave Ego's at the door before entering the room.
I don't feel the need to stand up for Jahlon - he's more than capable of doing that for himself! - this is me showing support for his contribution to the community and promoting fact based discussions.

When I'm posting I can waffle and I can get facts wrong, explain things poorly or just not research them as well as I should. I never have a problem with someone pointing out any genuine deficiencies in my post, especially when they are backed up by a link to documented facts. By the peculiarities of fate it frequently seems to be @unknownsystemerror pointing out my forum shortcomings, but I have nothing but gratitude and respect that he does so. We all benefit from "engaging brain before opening mouth" and researching the subject matter before commenting is the online equivalent.

daveywavey

McMackMuck wrote: »

By the peculiarities of fate it frequently seems to be @unknownsystemerror pointing out my forum shortcomings

Our forum's MVP, by far.

Noaani

daveywavey wrote: »

McMackMuck wrote: »

By the peculiarities of fate it frequently seems to be @unknownsystemerror pointing out my forum shortcomings

Our forum's MVP, by far.

I would have to concur.

Kesthely

Since many people (Including myself) have veered of the original concern, let me reiterate it again.

My primary concern is that the implementation of the secondary archetype unlock takes to long. People will have to play a incomplete character for to long before they can get a feeling of its end game playstyle. This might result in people discontinue playing due to their expectations not meeting reality, and then be unwilling to spend the same amount of time redoing their character with a chance of the same thing happening again

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

People will have to play a incomplete character for to long before they can get a feeling of its end game playstyle.

We moved on from that point because it is irrelevant.

Most games put each classes signature ability at the level cap, meaning you don't get a feel for how the class will play until you hit that level cap.

I expect nothing less from Ashes.

That said, Ashes will not have players just play their secondary class, but rather change between many of those available to them at times, teaching players the basics of the base class before going in to specifics of a particular build seems wise - 25 levels doesn't actually seem quite enough there imo.

Lastly, since there are other more important things for the game to communicate to players early on in the game, and you do not want to throw too much at players too quickly, delaying the advent of secondary class acquisition until after those more important things have been communicated seems smart.

All of the points that we have bought up are still valid, you attempting to reset the discussion doesn't change that.

Aerlana

Kesthely wrote: »

This might result in people discontinue playing due to their expectations not meeting reality, and then be unwilling to spend the same amount of time redoing their character with a chance of the same thing happening again

This is the point we are speaking about.

And you know what, even with a fighter/mage feeling like a fighter/mage, it can cause a guy who wanted all his life to play fighter/mage to dislike what he will have in the end.

Fighter/fighter and fighter/mage will have different weaks and strengths clearly. But will it have a full different gameplay, coming from proc to pure rotation (for example) i totally doubt...

I am part of those hoping while role will be defined by the primary archetype (so fighter = DPS) augments can do a slight alteration (so mage/tank could do a light offtank work, with augment helping with hate generation and other with some mitigation. While mage can already equip heavy armor).

What i did quote is what we are speaking. the problem is : we don't know if the impact of secundary will be so strong. Secundary archetype will give augments... like does race. and we don't know how major will be the choice of the weapon and the armor for the character... Gameplay won't be only race + primary + secundary, but also weapon. If the weapon represent by itself 50% of gameplay... yes secundary archetype will have a reduced impact on the game...

insomnia

It would be nice if there were some information about your class, potention augmentations later on. Without having to go in full detail.... Or the wiki will datamine it and have it there

Or some other site

Kesthely

Noaani wrote: »

Kesthely wrote: »

People will have to play a incomplete character for to long before they can get a feeling of its end game playstyle.

We moved on from that point because it is irrelevant.

That is your Opinion. for each player different things are relevant

Noaani wrote: »

Most games put each classes signature ability at the level cap, meaning you don't get a feel for how the class will play until you hit that level cap.

I expect nothing less from Ashes.

Statistics show that this is not the case. The majority of games put their strongest ability at roughly 80% of the playthrough. For those that do have a capstone ability this is often a (long) cooldown ability that's interwoven in its playstyle instead of being the playstyle.

Noaani wrote: »

That said, Ashes will not have players just play their secondary class, but rather change between many of those available to them at times, teaching players the basics of the base class before going in to specifics of a particular build seems wise - 25 levels doesn't actually seem quite enough there imo.

Again conjecture of how your going to be playing the game. There will be a lot of players that will remain the same secondary, depending on how difficult it is to switch secondary's, or how many augment options they have from other sources to negate their weak points or augment their strengths.

Noaani wrote: »

Lastly, since there are other more important things for the game to communicate to players early on in the game, and you do not want to throw too much at players too quickly, delaying the advent of secondary class acquisition until after those more important things have been communicated seems smart.

Again based on what you find important. as said before all the things that you mention and find more important are optional systems and activities. The things that happen in Ashes will feel similar to events in other games. the changes are introduced organically. New monsters appear, more dungeon floors unlock, towns grow, or get destroyed. There are only a very few player activities that require knowledge from the (node)system. (Mastery in crafting, becoming mayor) And i assume that all of them will happen way later then lvl 25.

Noaani wrote: »

All of the points that we have bought up are still valid, you attempting to reset the discussion doesn't change that.

I started this discussion, if i feel its veered of course i'm well in my right to try to steer it back on track

Kesthely

Aerlana wrote: »

Kesthely wrote: »

This might result in people discontinue playing due to their expectations not meeting reality, and then be unwilling to spend the same amount of time redoing their character with a chance of the same thing happening again

This is the point we are speaking about.

And you know what, even with a fighter/mage feeling like a fighter/mage, it can cause a guy who wanted all his life to play fighter/mage to dislike what he will have in the end.

True, and that's why i'm wondering if lvl 25 is to late in the game for getting access to the secondary's.

The majority of people will not spend 20+ hours (if to lvl 25 the average time to level is shy of 1 hour) or 50+ hours (if the average time to level up is 2 hours) a second time if they are not satisfied the fist time of what the end playstyle is.

Why does the game need me to bind my hands together for 20 or 50+ hours. Explaining the node system is as simple as "Your activities allow the region to grow more prosperous, but be warned others might attack what you worked so hard for."

If your Tutorial is a 20 hour long session, then most people will have forgotten the first 19 hours by the time they complete it anyways.

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

Again based on what you find important. as said before all the things that you mention and find more important are optional systems and activities.

Except this isn't true.

In order for what needs to be communicated to players about the node system to be considered "optional systems and activities", you would also need.to consider combat (and thus classes) optional.

You could be in a level 20 area one day, fighting off sentient flowers. Due to node changes, the very next day that exact same area may well be filled with level 40 golem.

The node system alters the very content we play. The stuff you use your class to fight against changes based on node state. This NEEDS to be communicated to players early. I mean, you seem to not be aware of the effects of node changes and you are posting on the games forum several years before launch. If you don't know, some random player that picked the game up on a whim will surely have no idea at all.

Kesthely

Noaani wrote: »

You could be in a level 20 area one day, fighting off sentient flowers. Due to node changes, the very next day that exact same area may well be filled with level 40 golem.

The node system alters the very content we play. The stuff you use your class to fight against changes based on node state. This NEEDS to be communicated to players early. I mean, you seem to not be aware of the effects of node changes and you are posting on the games forum several years before launch. If you don't know, some random player that picked the game up on a whim will surely have no idea at all.

The node system is only important on server basis. It creates, updates and keeps the world alive. While all activities are (in)directly linked to nodes, from a average player perspective you only need to know the folloing. Everything you do has an impact on the world, and due to player actions things might change.

Your example is a bit exaggerated as well, while it is true that you can suddenly see an increase in level you will probably not see a doubling of level AND a entirely different creature type. It will most likely be more in the line of the lvl 20's will be lvl 25's or even 25 elites. A dangerous change if you are unaware of it, but not something insurmountable. They still need to keep it relevant. Those sentient flowers you were fighting might have a quest attached to kill them. upgrading the level or elite status, makes the quest harder, changing them to golems would make the quest undoable in some cases.

Knowing the node system as thoroughly as you suggest is contradicting the essence of the game.

System wise:
If the node system is so "simple" that you can explain it to players then its also so "simple" that you can predict, "if i upgrade the town are to city area, and the major contributor of the node is Dunir, then those flowers will turn into golem of this approximate level" then i can guarantee you that there will be people that theory craft the best approach to obtain that stuff witch they consider BIS.

To much info on a system is more detrimental than to few. Wow classic is the perfect example of it. From a fun game in 2004, where the classes were relatively equally represented in the "hardest" raids, due to theory crafting they were stacking only one class in the wow classic re-release. If the formula's of the node system are well enough known you will see people do the same. If class X with Secondary Y of race Z contributes the most of Noda A of tier 3, then tier 4 will spawn Monster type M. And i can guarantee you that there will be entire communities dedicated not only to data mine that stuff, but also testing and trying to trigger that.

So no, having a better understanding of the Node system is not always better for the game or player alike.

Roleplay wise:
Ashes is a mmo RPG. Role playing game. your character plays a role in a fantasy world. from an RPG standpoints its inconceivable that the fact that your chopping wood, that area you are currently in will develop into a city. on a character perspective, this is actually detrimental. If because your chopping wood, a city is formed in this spot, there will be less wood for you to chop. From a character explanation standpoint you can explain the node gaining experience as, the area that you cleared from wood has now been designated as development area. The wood that you sold has been used for housing. You do an action, it has an influence on the world. That's ALL you need to know. Mobs getting stronger? Easily explained in RPG as well. Your culling of the weaker (insert mob type) has resulted in only the strong surviving, and thus they became stronger and harder to deal with (higher level / elite).

Notice that the underlying words of Node and system are never used. You cant make an (mmo) RPG game and dilute it with game systems information. That would be in direct conflict of the nature of RPG.

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

Your example is a bit exaggerated as well, while it is true that you can suddenly see an increase in level you will probably not see a doubling of level AND a entirely different creature type.

That kind of thing absolutely will happen. it is absolutely probable that parts of the world will go from only being influenced by a level 2 military node, to the very next day also being influenced by a level 6 economic node. It could also happen in reverse where a level 0 node in a metropolis ZoI goes from being influenced by that metropolis, to the very next day having no nodes influencing it at all.

There will be massive changes in population in some areas as node influence changes - that is inevitable with the node system.

Your dismissive attitude towards players having an understanding of the node system in Ashes (literally the only thing that sets Ashes apart from other MMO's) is about like saying that all players need to know about subclasses is that they get some abilities, and they can use them to kill stuff or help their friends, and they can change their subclass if they don't like it.

If you are going to be dismissive of the node system and players understanding of it, you need to be equally dismissive of the class system and players understanding of it.

Honestly, I think your dismissing attitude towards the node system stems from a total lack of comprehension as to the impact it will at times have on the population of a given part of the world.

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