Hot Take: Why waste time on races no one is going to care about?

Talking mostly about Niküa here. We know they are never going it see their architecture in a major node. I have already seen people complain about it and propose wacky systems to make the node architecture more balanced. Tulnar and Empyrean will dominate, and we will see a good amount of humans. Only Dünir if they fix them.

It's like, why not just scrap Niküa? Less than 5% of the player base is going to pick them... The orcs and wood elves are going to be less than 10% for sure(better but not great). They could hold off on these races for now.

Instead of having things come in pairs for no reason. Why not just scrap the races and put stuff in, people like actually later? Or not put them in at launch all together to save budget and development time?

We all know in our heart of hearts that some of these races are a just not going to see much play, and better races could be put in their place after launch.

I would rather see more exciting races down the line in an expansion personally. They could do polls to see what races to add or remove from the game. We don't need nine whole ass races at launch, when realistically only five are going to be hype.

Feel free to tell me how crazy and wrong I am.

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Everdark

In my opinion eliminating races at this stage is probably a little late (given many people are already hyped about the 9 races presented thus far, and it would be a PR issue if they removed any at this stage). Furthermore it might actually limit content opportunities like those you mention in the long-run. Especially since it won't be clear initially what the racial distribution will look like, and all of the races likely have lore developed that is interrelated.

Moreover, popularity is a dynamic thing subject to the whims of the community. Depending on how lore develops as the game progresses, the distribution of player race selection might change after launch. We also need to consider that racial popularity can be influenced by dev decisions.

If over time a dwindling number of players play one or two of the races, this presents a content opportunity for the devs to refresh player interest in those races.

-If the community finds a race boring or shallow (i.e. a lore based problem), an expansion type content drop focused on an unpopular race could likely refresh interest. Maybe adding a home city, destroying a home city, conflict with another race, establishment of some arch nemesis type of enemy for the race, magical portal opens in that race's home city with significant impacts on the race and their civilization, etc.

-If aesthetics are a problem for a given race and that's a driving factor in selection, that's more difficult to address, but not impossible. Perhaps that race or races suffers a calamitous world-wide event, or sickness that results in physical mutations that change them aesthetically to basically another race to solve the issue. They could be minor aesthetic changes, or significant, whichever is needed. Such a thing could open huge lore possibilities, as well as potential soft conflict with other races resulting from the mutations and associated event.

To summarize what I'm contending above, the fluctuating racial distribution of players is a soft conflict/friction factor which can drive developer content creation and existing players rerolling an alt as another race. While we can't be sure whether the devs. would pursue content development in this manner, if you remove any races that are unpopular, you essentially remove this possibility entirely. Keeping the 9 races discussed thus far, even if it means less developed racial backgrounds for each initially, builds a better foundation for the game going forward in my opinion.

CROW3

This reminds me that I haven't seen a Kender in decades, which makes Tasslehoff cry.

The races as they stand seem fine. If I had my druthers I'd have race/subrace selection determine starting location - as in LOTRO. But that's also a high-fantasy setting with a very established (i.e. rigid) lore driving where races may appear. That doesn't appear to be the case in Ashes. If the player distribution is wonky they may adjust they may not. As long as Dünir are in, I'm good.

I am curious as to how the Ashes lore will drive additional races showing up in DLCs...

Atama

Vhaeyne wrote: »

@Atama

Again, I think it is utterly shitty that people only thinking about playing Niküa for stats. To me, that is a failed race. It could have been any number of fantasy things people do like. Instead, it's: "well I hate the way my character looks in game, but I love the way he sims on this spreadsheet!".

I want everything about Ashes to be good. I hope you guys are seeing that.

But with racial skins it might not matter how a character looks. We know a Nikua won't look any different from a Dunir or a Vek if you put the Frost racial skin on them. So that's one thing to consider; in this game the appearance of race might not always matter.

People pick races for different reasons. Some do it for stats, some do it for the lore, some do it for appearance, some just want an alt of every race to experience playing with different kinds of characters. I do agree that if people very rarely make a Nikua because of their looks, then that's a very clear and objective sign that Intrepid screwed up in designing the race. They might still create a Nikua for the other reasons mentioned but that doesn't mean it's not a problem.

One other thing I'll mention that might make this an even bigger issue than similar MMORPGs, is that the developers have put an emphasis on gear adapting in style depending on the character's race. That leather apron on a Dunir might become a grass skirt on a Nikua. (Totally pulled that example out of my rear end but I think that's not far from how they're doing it.) They want it set up so that your gear will identify your race as much as your build, facial features, skin color, and so on. (Again, ignoring skins and costumes that might override those aesthetics to a degree.) So because of that, if a race like the Nikua have an unpopular appearance it might have even more of an impact on how often players choose that race than it might in another game, which makes your concerns even more valid.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Again, I think it is utterly shitty that people only thinking about playing Niküa for stats.

This is the only thing I look at when picking a race.

bloodprophet

A lot of players only look at stats.

Atama

I think the point that @Vhaeyne was making, if I understand correctly, is that if players will only pick the Nikua for their stats then that's a bad thing. Not necessarily to shame the people who pick a race based on stats, but because there are other races that are picked based on aesthetics, just not the Nikua. They're like the ugly kid in school that someone is only friends with to get help with their homework.

Vhaeyne

@Atama

You are correct. Not trying to shame anyone.

Let me put it this way. Classes and Races are some of the first things people look at when they are looking at an MMORPG. They are ads for the game in a sense. "Come be this cool looking thing!" should be the selling point for any race. People often look to the aesthetics of classes and races first.

@Noaani @bloodprophet

I agree that many people pick their race for the abilities. I feel this is actually a problem that should be addressed better by MMORPGs in the future. Any MMORPG where race does not matter kind of has it right IMO.

I think a better system would be to have "backgrounds" like in 5th edition D&D replace the stats/abilities part of races. The reason is that you could still have the build diversity of a class/race system without being locked into playing something if you don't like the way it looks. This is the type of system that would have prevented WOWs faction imbalance. If instead of the orc having its OP racials, anyone could pick the "berserker" background that has the same racials as the orc. We would see people actually picking the race they want aesthetically.

I have always been a strong supporter of player agency. As much as it makes realistic sense to have differences between races. It also stands to reason that an orc could be raised in the same environment as a gnome and never end up being like an orc, but end up more like a gnome. This only really falls apart when you have like a race with wings for some reason. Obviously, an orc raised by Aarakocra would never be able to fly. The solution for this is easy, don't let players play races that have wings and can fly. Have the backgrounds(racials) be traits that any humanoid race could actually obtain.

I know all of this last bit is a bit off-topic, but I think it illustrates my point. If I had to distill my sentiment in this whole thread down to one sentence, it would be this:
"Every race should be something that is at least tempting on its aesthetics alone to a good portion of the playerbase.". I don't think we are in that situation right now.

I don't expect my hot take to magically solve the problem. I just think we are seeing the same limited and shitty design decisions over and over. I like Mortal Online 2, but I hate every single race in that game, Aesthetically. To the point that you might as well not have an appearance. The only saving grace is that the armor looks good, and you can just cover your character with armor and pretend that the cursed form underneath it is not there. I think we might see a lot of Nikua permanently in full cosmetic costumes for that same reason. The stats are good, ill just use this one cosmetic that makes everything look good, and that will be my appearance until the end of time. XD

Khronus

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Birthday wrote: »

Summary of post:
OP is having a hard time waiting for the game to launch.

Not really.

I am fine waiting.

It just pains me to see the same mistakes made game after game.

It's added work that could go into polishing other areas of the game.

I found it odd that I had to pick between two types of orc. I'm all for the roleplay aspect of any game but there is a limit I think before it becomes wasted time. Everything they have changed, improved on, and implemented in the last 2 years has my complete approval so when it comes to things like this, it's not really THAT concerning. Intrepid has earned my trust and I do think we will get some quality lore surrounding each race. If not........damn what a waste.

Also, statistics about racial choices and such prior to the launch are just silly. People will come and go...hell, even guilds have formed and disbanded in Alpha 1 haha.

Nerror

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Again, I think it is utterly shitty that people only thinking about playing Niküa for stats. To me, that is a failed race.

I get what you are saying, but that's just the reality of things for all races and for many people, and it doesn't reflect on the race itself necessarily.

The Dünir is a well known entity to most people, that they've grown to love through various games and fantasy IPs. I love the Dünir myself because of those other IPs, not because Intrepids version is new and unique, but because they (now) align more closely to those other IPs. The Niküa is a completely new take on dwarfs that I haven't seen before elsewhere than in Ashes. Of course early adoption is going to be low, because they in many ways are in stark contrast to the stereotypical dwarves.

I think that is amazing and worth exploring, and I want to see much more of them in the game and learn the lore and such. I almost wish they'll be given OP racial abilities so 50% or more players will pick them, just to see people's reaction

Niküa nodes everywhere! I want to see the Niküa rule the seas too!

Vhaeyne

Khronus wrote: »

I found it odd that I had to pick between two types of orc. I'm all for the roleplay aspect of any game but there is a limit I think before it becomes wasted time. Everything they have changed, improved on, and implemented in the last 2 years has my complete approval so when it comes to things like this, it's not really THAT concerning. Intrepid has earned my trust and I do think we will get some quality lore surrounding each race. If not........damn what a waste.

Also, statistics about racial choices and such prior to the launch are just silly. People will come and go...hell, even guilds have formed and disbanded in Alpha 1 haha.

They have my trust when it comes to the overall game design. I am even optimistic the battle system will end up great.

There are just little things like this that seem so short-sighted. I don't think the game is going to be bad if it's worst case scenario and only like less than 1% of the server plays Nikua.

FFXIV released a new race in Shadowbringers that has less than 1% of people play it. People are still regarding Shadowbringers as one of the best MMOS of all time. I think at this point, the FFXIV devs would tell you the new race is failure if cornered.

I think Ashes will still be great even if some races are not a success. FFXIV literally already has that problem, and I think it's a successful MMORPG.

@Nerror

I love the hopes and dreams you have for the Nikua. It would in fact be great to see them succeed. Me being wrong about all of this is really the best case scenario.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I agree that many people pick their race for the abilities. I feel this is actually a problem that should be addressed better by MMORPGs in the future. Any MMORPG where race does not matter kind of has it right IMO.

I disagree.

A game that did this would remove the value of a players choice as a race. It turns it in to a completely cosmetic choice. Race may as well be a shop cosmetic.

If a game only has cosmetics as racial effects, why even have races? Why not just give players all options to make what ever they want?

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

I disagree.

A game that did this would remove the value of a players choice as a race. It turns it in to a completely cosmetic choice. Race may as well be a shop cosmetic.

If a game only has cosmetics as racial effects, why even have races? Why not just give players all options to make what ever they want?

You read the part where I offered up 5E style backgrounds as a replacement for this choice? I don't want to see interesting combinations and choices go away in RPGs, I just don't think they should really be tied to aesthetics anymore. It's antiquated and oppressive.

At this point, I think races are becoming purely cosmetic more and more in RPGs, and that is a good thing. It just gives the player more agency on what they look like. It's not fun to be forced to look like something you hate to make a play style you like viable.

bloodprophet

Interesting thought that a huge ogre should have the same nimbleness as a halfling and be able to thief sneak. Is this what D&D has devolved into? Just mix and match whatever into what ever with zero for thought.
An Orc growing up with Dwarves is still an Orc. Just as a kitten growing up with puppies is still a cat.
"It's antiquated and oppressive."

Vhaeyne

bloodprophet wrote: »

Interesting thought that a huge ogre should have the same nimbleness as a halfling and be able to thief sneak. Is this what D&D has devolved into? Just mix and match whatever into what ever with zero for thought.
An Orc growing up with Dwarves is still an Orc. Just as a kitten growing up with puppies is still a cat.
"It's antiquated and oppressive."

Not yet, backgrounds are your third selection. You pick Race, Class, Background at character creation. Unrelated to why I think races make more sense as cosmetics in MMORPGs. (Which is not how I thought of my take, but Noaani described it as such, and I can't disagree).

No, Wizards have been going down this path of changing races because they think people are bringing real world stereotypes and racism into D&D. Which I think is absurd, but there has been a whole trend of being overly politically correct with D&D ever since it became mainstream to play D&D. That is different from why I don't think race should matter in MMORPGs from an appearance standpoint.

For me, I am just Vain... Like if the game has shit GFX like WOW, Darkfall, or EQ2 then my brain just shuts the vanity off, and I don't give a fuck. I would play an MMO with Atari graphics if the systems were good and rewarding. The second the game starts to look good, I want more of a say in how I look. Which is why I made that thread comparing every character generator I could get my hands on. When the character generator is good, I really like it. When the game lets me mix and match and dye gear, I really like that too. I don't like being locked out of appearance options for the sake of gameplay mechanics. It is a reduction in player agency.

For D&D, I care less about these points. You can imagine a race to be as cool or dumb looking as you like. When the DM describes a Drows face, you might imagine the shitfaces of dark elves from Elder Scrolls, while I imagine the faces from Lineage 2.

I also think you are thinking about the raised by a different race thing wrong. An orc raised by gnomes might be forced to study all day instead of whatever chad shit orcs do to make them so ripped. It may be a struggle for an orc to have the mind of a gnome, but we are not talking about a normal random ork. We are talking about one who ultimately becomes a hero of some kind. Any character a player makes is somewhat of a fringe case already. Non player character orcs might just end up weak and dumb if raised by gnomes. Player characters rise to the challenge, eventually going toe to toe with nearly anything with stats. I am not saying the players are giga powerful, but they are at least a fringe case.

I have actually seen cats that behave like dogs because they did not spend much time around other cats and don't know any better.

McMackMuck

I'd like racial pro's and con's to be not directly combat or archetype meta related. I posted some ideas on the subject many moons ago, but I think it fell into the TL;DR abyss.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/47780/racial-benefits-speculation-and-ideas-welcome#latest
Sorry to put you all through it again. Only click that link if you're bored and have time to kill!

Nerror

All dwarfs should get 10% extra quest rewards because they are such sexy bastards.

Vhaeyne

McMackMuck wrote: »

I'd like racial pro's and con's to be not directly combat or archetype meta related. I posted some ideas on the subject many moons ago, but I think it fell into the TL;DR abyss.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/47780/racial-benefits-speculation-and-ideas-welcome#latest
Sorry to put you all through it again. Only click that link if you're bored and have time to kill!

It's weird man. I don't consider myself to be very progressive when it comes to MMORPGs. If you told me there was a way, I could travel back in time and play EQ1 from launch until it fell from favor, or I could travel forward in time and start playing Ashes now. I think I would pick EQ1. I really do like old school MMORPGs.

I like the grit and brutality. Praying I can get my corpse back. Losing hours to just navigating the world. Not knowing anything about the world.

Sometimes, I think there are innovations that are hard to argue against forever. Initially, I was hostile to the idea of transmog/glam. I thought it was stupid, you could just wear what you want. My instant instinct was to transmog my gear in PvP to look worse than it is. If this ever worked for anyone, it was like a day in MMO history. Now it's like... "Why is WOW stuck in the Stone Age with no dye?" Guildwars 1 had that shit in the early 2000s. I get annoyed in FFXIV that I can only have so many outfits... Like, I see an axe and want to dye and mix gear to match it. Make something fresh that stands out.

Cosmetics won. There are plenty of hold outs other there, but the idea of changing the appearance of your gear won. It may be standard now. Having the races be cosmetic is the next innovation that is coming to RPGs.

I did read a bit of your post, you were not kidding. It's a long one. I have to say, though. All of that could be done with backgrounds. Maybe you choose a combat background and a non-combat background. It really is not hard to split mechanics and appearance. I am pretty over the old-school idea that appearance and mechanics should be married. I think the next big MMORPG will be one that follows that philosophy, or already is.

Vhaeyne

[quote="Atama;c-322249"
But with racial skins it might not matter how a character looks. We know a Nikua won't look any different from a Dunir or a Vek if you put the Frost racial skin on them. So that's one thing to consider; in this game the appearance of race might not always matter.

People pick races for different reasons. Some do it for stats, some do it for the lore, some do it for appearance, some just want an alt of every race to experience playing with different kinds of characters. I do agree that if people very rarely make a Nikua because of their looks, then that's a very clear and objective sign that Intrepid screwed up in designing the race. They might still create a Nikua for the other reasons mentioned but that doesn't mean it's not a problem.

One other thing I'll mention that might make this an even bigger issue than similar MMORPGs, is that the developers have put an emphasis on gear adapting in style depending on the character's race. That leather apron on a Dunir might become a grass skirt on a Nikua. (Totally pulled that example out of my rear end but I think that's not far from how they're doing it.) They want it set up so that your gear will identify your race as much as your build, facial features, skin color, and so on. (Again, ignoring skins and costumes that might override those aesthetics to a degree.) So because of that, if a race like the Nikua have an unpopular appearance it might have even more of an impact on how often players choose that race than it might in another game, which makes your concerns even more valid.[/quote]

I missed this early, and there is a lot of great stuff I did not want to skip over. I have not really considered where racial skins fit into this whole discussion until just now.

I also don't know that racial skins will be sold again? I thought that was a kickstarter thing?

I keep forgetting about racial skins. Mostly because I don't value them at all personally. The idea of having one constant, rigid appearance is not something I want to do, but you are right. If the choice is something with good stats that I hate or good stats and an awesome appearance. I might have to go with the racial skins.

I think you are right about the leather vs grass. That is exactly how I imagine it. This sort of stuff has a hidden benefit. If this is by design, then it's a giga brain move.

What if the races have a locked appearance to motivate cosmetic sales?

On one had that is good for sales, but on the other hand it's some EA games tier shit if done on purpose. This would be a terrible look if Nikua had excellent racials.

I want to be very clear that I am not accusing Intrepid of anything here. I am just asking because it comes to mind.

Still covering the race, so I don't have to go into battle with a fire dragon, might be something I would do if my character was wearing grass armor. Even if it's just cosmetic.

McMackMuck

I have a preference for visual representation being accurate, but I'm sure I'll adapt.
I agree that everyone wants ("needs"?) to have an individual appearance to help with their own in-game identity, and that is a very important aspect of the game engagement. For me the problem comes when players are increasingly trying to stand out from the crowd with more and more bright / garish skins, which is clearly compensating for a level of RL insecurity! I'm not a fan of extreme customization (neon fairy wings, etc.) but so long as every day doesn't look like a mardi-gras / fancy dress festival I think I'll be okay. Looking at the costume design that has gone into Wheel of Time there are definitely benefits to having racial/cultural clothing themes, but for Ashes that horse bolted from the stable early in development. I'm hoping that guild clothing/tabards might help compensate by giving uniform based identity.

Vhaeyne

McMackMuck wrote: »

I have a preference for visual representation being accurate, but I'm sure I'll adapt.
I agree that everyone wants ("needs"?) to have an individual appearance to help with their own in-game identity, and that is a very important aspect of the game engagement. For me the problem comes when players are increasingly trying to stand out from the crowd with more and more bright / garish skins, which is clearly compensating for a level of RL insecurity! I'm not a fan of extreme customization (neon fairy wings, etc.) but so long as every day doesn't look like a mardi-gras / fancy dress festival I think I'll be okay. Looking at the costume design that has gone into Wheel of Time there are definitely benefits to having racial/cultural clothing themes, but for Ashes that horse bolted from the stable early in development. I'm hoping that guild clothing/tabards might help compensate by giving uniform based identity.

I agree, sometimes it can go too far. I try to address those issues as they come up. We got this Santa outfit in the shop this month. I have nothing against Santa personally. In fact he has been pretty good to me over the years. XD I just don't think every MMORPG should import that real world peice of culture. In fact, I think it's annoying that even in these fantasy worlds you can't escape Christmas.

I address that issue on its own as I would the garish skins or the neon fairy wings... or any wings period. I am sure Tulnar will have wings and I will think it's stupid when it happens. All I can really do is speak out against it, though. The sales are already made.

I think we are going to see some very interesting debates down the line when it comes to cosmetics. What if racial skins are widely available? If they are, what is the point of not having a race change? You can change your sub-class and your appearance... At that point, we are only restricting the racials.

I also think we are going to see a slippery slope with the cosmetics as they notice what sales and what does not sell. What happens when more skin on a cosmetic equals better money? Neon wings sale like hot cakes at 40$? I don't want that, but it could happen.

I hate to sound negative, but even if I was fully on team visual progression. I don't know how optimistic I would be.

Tabards would be cool, though. So long as I like the one my guild comes up with.

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