Crafting and player driven economy … really ?

Ladies and Gentlemen,

beg your pardon to bother you with my thoughts, but I would like to draw your attention to the subject of crafting and player
driven economy for a moment:

As many of us know, crafting itsself continously has been reduced from a very useful and also challenging activity in an
MMORPG (anybody here who remembers UO or SWG ?), into a „nice-to-have-but-can-be-easily-ignored“ feature in almost
any MMO which joined the market within the last two decades. (very few exceptions).

As I am not sure if I missed detailed informations so far, I would like to kindly ask, if anybody knows, If the developers plan
to implement a mechanic of decay or anything similar into the game…? Once the statement from Intrepid Studios was given
that AoC intends to be preferrably a Sandbox-style game, I wonder, how they plan to implement a player driven economy.

An economy can run only, if there is continously demand generated of ALL (and this is the very crucial point !) items in the virtual world. Oversimplyfied said: Even the best armor from the most challenging Raids should have a durability flag with a limited number of possible repairs before it is destroyed irrecoverablely. (Just a note aside: Maybe it would be an option to drop not the Armor or Weapon, but the specific material to craft it …)

Some other thoughts would be:
Crafters also might create so called „Repair-Deeds“ that players can buy from them and use at will …
Or imagine a skill like Healing: Players might shear sheep in the environment, take the wool to a spinning-wheel, then a loom and finally cut it into bandages which can then be sold to other players ...
Spells could consume material like minerals gathered from miners, or jewels enhanced by goldsmiths …
Maybe ammunition could work ?

Ok, before my thoughts and ideas bother you too much, I’ll better stop here 😉
However, those "ideas" are not new, they worked in "older" Sandbox-MMO's very well ...

Honestly, my biggest fear for „Ashes Of Creation“ actually is, that crafting would become as useless and boring as in most
other MMORPG’s …

Hope, that was understood as intended, as I am not a native speaker for English language 😉

Thank you so much for your attention 😊

Kind regards

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Comments

Ironhope

Silberwolf wrote: »

An economy can run only, if there is continously demand generated of ALL (and this is the very crucial point !) items in the virtual world. Oversimplyfied said: Even the best armor from the most challenging Raids should have a durability flag with a limited number of possible repairs before it is destroyed irrecoverablely.

Honestly, I really dislike the idea.
Makes the feeling you get when you find an epic item just... less.

Silberwolf wrote: »

(Just a note aside: Maybe it would be an option to drop not the Armor or Weapon, but the specific material to craft it …)

I'm pretty sure that's what they said they're going to do.

AncientIncant

I’ll restate your question as “How will Ashes integrate professions into a healthy player economy” and provide a few features Intrepid Studios has said on record.

Scarcity
- The artisan class system allows you to master one parent skill tree or dip into one or more of the three skill trees. (Gathering, Processing, Crafting)
- Gatherable resources are spread out, and will be discovered through trial-and-error.
- Gatherable resources will shift locations as they’re exhausted. The intention is to avoid devaluing raw materials by limiting its accessibility.

Interconnectivity
Gathering:
- Gatherers require tools. Tools have durability and limited lifespans. Tools may become non-repairable and need to be re-crafted.
- Gathering tools are associated with a specific resource tier, to limit their use.
Processing:
- Processing requires blueprints. Blueprints are obtained through defeating mobs, quests and more.
- Blueprints are consumed on use.
Crafting:
- Crafting requires recipes which operate similarly blueprints.
- Crafting will be executed at crafting stations within a freehold. There are a finite number of freeholds.

Macroeconomy
- Item decay and various gold sinks will be implemented to combat inflation.
- Dynamic pricing by NPC merchants is being considered.
- Various methods of trade ie: player-to-player trade, mailing, player stalls (unattended), personal shops, auction house, caravan.

In summary, the game economy revolves around crafting and degradation of items. Don’t expect the economy to be perfect. With patience and community feedback, we may end of up with a robust virtual economy.

TLDR: Item decay will exist

Boanergese

@AncientIncant summarized it well. I believe that your nodes, houses and freeholds can also take damage from sieges, therefore you will need materials to repair them. So, you will need wood, stone, ore, etc. to repair your buildings which will cause demand and make players continue to gather them and create a demand for them. I don't like the idea of an item being permanently destroyed, but I don't mind having to hire a blacksmith to repair my item and for the cost of rarer items to cost more. Remember, from a D&D perspective magical items were rare and were not destroyed because they were magical. I realize that games build in money sinks for item repair. Eve Online had a player driven economy from ships being destroyed and needing to be rebuilt. The same for space stations. So, it's possible to make a crafting system work. The problem in modern MMO games is that the raid gear is better than the crafted gear or you can only craft one piece of raid quality gear so there is no incentive to craft.

Tulima

In addition to the decay system as AncientIncant described there will also be an item destruction system. Enchanting items will have an RNG element that could destroy your item. This is good for the player economy since demand for the item will be increased.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Enchanting

ShadyZeku

To me honest, i'm not to fond of the idea that, let's say, legendary armor/weapons from drops get destroyed. It makes the feeling you get from hours or maybe days and weeks of grinding feel.. less of an achievment if you get my drift. But i am very interested in the idea that you can use spells from different materials and also get those materials from all around your envrionment. To be able to use it in crafting, and hopefully make a player driven economy blossom

Noaani

ShadyZeku wrote: »

To me honest, i'm not to fond of the idea that, let's say, legendary armor/weapons from drops get destroyed.

In a game where permanent item destruction is a thing, you don't get excited about a legendary item drop.

You don't get excited about any one victory.

You build up a stockpile - not just of the best gear you can obtain, but also of lower tier gear and materials so that you don't waste your top end gear on content where it is not needed.

What you do get excited about in such a game is when someone in your guild learns to make a new top end item. Rather than going after drops, you go after recipes/blueprints, and then put your stockpile of materials to use.

It is a very different type of game to something like WoW where you just get your drop and then you're good. You need to think far more about loot when item destruction is a thing.

It is really not a game system for everyone. Many players just can't handle it.

George_Black

Fear not. They are aware of the crafting/market situation of most mmos these days.
Participating in the economy and crafting will be meaningful.
Not a competition for who can undercut the others and place their stacks 1g cheaper, with the market full of endless mass produced crap.

1) It won't be easy to lv up a crafting job. Players will have to chose only one path if they want to produce anything worth selling.
2) Crafting will require lots of materials to produce 1 piece of gear These materials will be found in the open world, where PvP is not restricted.
3) Not every material will be found a 2min walking distance from your comfort. Not every material will be available in every part of the map. Players will have to travel to other cities to buy and sell their goods.
4) There won't be auction houses with search engines. You will have to walk around town and search at the goods the players sell on their stalls. I would like a feature like /findstall animal bone, which would highlight the player stalls that have animal bone on their title (or their abrevassions AB for animal bones, etc etc. Just like in L2 mmo)

Silberwolf

Ladies and Gentlemen,

thank you so much for leaving your comments here. This is highly appreciated.

However, after further investigation, I obviously recognized that any kind of gathered materials will
NOT be tradable within the chars on my account ! Did I get this right ? What about the processed
products ? Are those not shareable as well ? Would I need to have at least three accounts to cover
all three mechanics and trade raw/processed materials between my twinks ?

Thanks very much for your support/opinion

Kind regards

Taleof2Cities

Silberwolf wrote: »

However, after further investigation, I obviously recognized that any kind of gathered materials will NOT be tradable within the chars on my account ! Did I get this right ? What about the processed products ? Are those not shareable as well ?

That's in the wiki, too, @Silberwolf ... but on the page that describes Alts.

You can totally transfer materials (through housing storage) as long as the Alt character resides in the same node.

Of course, that could be open to some tweaks as the game moves through beta testing.

"Transfer of resources and materials to alts will only be possible via player housing storage, which is localized to a particular house.[4]"

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Alts

Noaani

Silberwolf wrote: »

Ladies and Gentlemen,

thank you so much for leaving your comments here. This is highly appreciated.

However, after further investigation, I obviously recognized that any kind of gathered materials will
NOT be tradable within the chars on my account ! Did I get this right ?

You can't using the warehouse system, but should be able to using in house storage.

RandomPlayer0001

ShadyZeku wrote: »

To me honest, i'm not to fond of the idea that, let's say, legendary armor/weapons from drops get destroyed. It makes the feeling you get from hours or maybe days and weeks of grinding feel.. less of an achievment if you get my drift. But i am very interested in the idea that you can use spells from different materials and also get those materials from all around your envrionment. To be able to use it in crafting, and hopefully make a player driven economy blossom

It will depend on what meanings are given to "decay" and "destruction." For example, if items become unusable until they are repaired by a crafter who can repair them, that's okay with me. If they become destroyed completely and cannot ever be used again, that would really be a let down. I think the true destruction of an item would only be a risk for those who try to over-enchant an item, but we'll have to wait and see what they come up with.

Zarrath

Removing permanence from high end items makes them not worth putting in the time to obtain. It takes away all of what they are meant to be. Having to store them for optimal situations for fear of exhausting their durability, making them irrevocably destroyable after x number of repairs? Sounds like a disastrous idea for maintaining a healthy playerbase eager to push new content.

Atama

Please remember what "destruction" means in Ashes of Creation. It doesn't mean an item vanishes. It means that the item is unusable until repaired. Items are permanent. Your legendary sword won't go away. (Well, not unless you rack up a ton of corruption, get killed, and are unlucky enough to drop it, but that's what you get for being a jerk.)

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Item_repair

When an item is "destroyed", that just means you can't use it anymore. Your gear is useless and is unequipped, and can't be equipped until repaired. Repairing an item involves reforging it, which requires using a portion of the materials that would be used in creating it. So, a breastplate might need some leather and iron to repair.

You can repair an item any number of times. It's not going to fall apart and become permanently useless at any point. What might happen is that you determine that repairing an item isn't worth the cost, and it might be better to just replace it. But that's the choice that you make as a player, it's not something forced on you.

Boanergese

@Atama Didn't they hint at with enchanting that you could choose of your own free will to push an item past the safety threshold and the item be destroyed. For example, if I do a 10% enchant on my sword with the enchanter and it is still in the safe zone. However, if I ask the enchanter to do a 15% enchant on my weapon now there is a 40% chance that the enchant will fail and the item will be lost or destroyed. That is a different concept that the item has 0 durability and needs repaired or that the item can only be repaired 20 times and then it is beyond repair. I am fine if trying to over enchant an item has risk because that is voluntary, and you are choosing to be greedy and push the item for a marginal increase. Maybe legendary items shouldn't be able to be enchanted or perhaps you shouldn't be able to enchant them beyond the safe zone. Then again, we are adults and if you enjoy gambling, remember "Fortune favors the brave".

Zarrath

Atama wrote: »

Please remember what "destruction" means in Ashes of Creation. It doesn't mean an item vanishes. It means that the item is unusable until repaired. Items are permanent.

Yeah I know, I was responding to OP, who floated the idea that items have a certain number of repairs before before being irrevocably destroyed.

Atama

Boanergese wrote: »

@Atama Didn't they hint at with enchanting that you could choose of your own free will to push an item past the safety threshold and the item be destroyed. For example, if I do a 10% enchant on my sword with the enchanter and it is still in the safe zone. However, if I ask the enchanter to do a 15% enchant on my weapon now there is a 40% chance that the enchant will fail and the item will be lost or destroyed. That is a different concept that the item has 0 durability and needs repaired or that the item can only be repaired 20 times and then it is beyond repair. I am fine if trying to over enchant an item has risk because that is voluntary, and you are choosing to be greedy and push the item for a marginal increase. Maybe legendary items shouldn't be able to be enchanted or perhaps you shouldn't be able to enchant them beyond the safe zone. Then again, we are adults and if you enjoy gambling, remember "Fortune favors the brave".

Absolutely! Again, though, remember that "destroyed" only means "useless until fixed". If you destroy an item from over-enchanting it, it just means you can't equip it until you reforge it. Which is bad, of course, because you then have to spend materials. But it's not lost forever or anything.

George_Black

Silberwolf wrote: »

Ladies and Gentlemen,

thank you so much for leaving your comments here. This is highly appreciated.

However, after further investigation, I obviously recognized that any kind of gathered materials will
NOT be tradable within the chars on my account ! Did I get this right ? What about the processed
products ? Are those not shareable as well ? Would I need to have at least three accounts to cover
all three mechanics and trade raw/processed materials between my twinks ?

Thanks very much for your support/opinion

Kind regards

Twinks? Everybody will play as part of a guild, covering each others needs, and you will waste time leveling up different characters?
You will fall behind, low lv, crafting low lv items through your low lv production chain of gather/process/craft.
Pick one path and play the game properly.

McShave

I think it would be best to wait and see what they release in testing and comment on that. Steven and Intrepid have a plan, but we don't know all the details. What they have told us so far sounds good theoretically, but I'm excited to get my hands on the testing so I can provide my proper feedback. The alpha and betas are designed for, among other things, community feedback. And shout out to Intrepid for listening to the community.

Child Item