SirChancelot11 wrote: » bloodprophet wrote: » Podgnil wrote: » 8 classes is more then enough, for good rpg enough 5 classes mage, ranger, assasin, fighter and cliric. Main question: can intrpd balance classes and subclasess and make them diferences really important. Because even one different spell can change game play, ure will craft and seek another armor, u will have another role in dungeon, and pvp gamestale. MAIN is balance them and make unique. In balance I mean not equil dps for dd and equil heal for heals, I mean thet every class be usefull in some game aspect and people will not play in same builds, stat caps and equip. For example rogue/rogue is best in instant mele dmg, and can awesome burst the target and rogue/cliric have less instant and tunel damage but have lifesteal. So one will have equip to be glass canon, and second focus on long fights and surviving, some heal perks on equip and etc. Your primary archetype will set your role. Tank will tank and Cleric will heal.https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Roleshttps://ashesofcreation.wiki/Archetypes I keep asking whether that is true or not for the live streams and haven't gotten an answer yet Also: Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4] I'm still going to stand by I hope what you say isn't the case, huge missed opportunity if it is....
bloodprophet wrote: » Podgnil wrote: » 8 classes is more then enough, for good rpg enough 5 classes mage, ranger, assasin, fighter and cliric. Main question: can intrpd balance classes and subclasess and make them diferences really important. Because even one different spell can change game play, ure will craft and seek another armor, u will have another role in dungeon, and pvp gamestale. MAIN is balance them and make unique. In balance I mean not equil dps for dd and equil heal for heals, I mean thet every class be usefull in some game aspect and people will not play in same builds, stat caps and equip. For example rogue/rogue is best in instant mele dmg, and can awesome burst the target and rogue/cliric have less instant and tunel damage but have lifesteal. So one will have equip to be glass canon, and second focus on long fights and surviving, some heal perks on equip and etc. Your primary archetype will set your role. Tank will tank and Cleric will heal.https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Roleshttps://ashesofcreation.wiki/Archetypes
Podgnil wrote: » 8 classes is more then enough, for good rpg enough 5 classes mage, ranger, assasin, fighter and cliric. Main question: can intrpd balance classes and subclasess and make them diferences really important. Because even one different spell can change game play, ure will craft and seek another armor, u will have another role in dungeon, and pvp gamestale. MAIN is balance them and make unique. In balance I mean not equil dps for dd and equil heal for heals, I mean thet every class be usefull in some game aspect and people will not play in same builds, stat caps and equip. For example rogue/rogue is best in instant mele dmg, and can awesome burst the target and rogue/cliric have less instant and tunel damage but have lifesteal. So one will have equip to be glass canon, and second focus on long fights and surviving, some heal perks on equip and etc.
SirChancelot11 wrote: » bloodprophet wrote: » Why? Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters. I didn't say everyone do everything. And just because I have a fighter/tank doesn't mean he can instantly tank now. You still have to have the gear, augments, and skill points set to be a tank. I'm not advocating the WoW/FFXIV style of click a button and swap your role. What I hope to see is some fluidity in primary archtypes so they are capable of building towards different roles. So not EVERY party needs a tank, a cleric, and then 6 whatever. Having a summoner/cleric geared for and built to be a healer instead of a DPS being capable of filling that role.
bloodprophet wrote: » Why? Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.
TrUSivraj wrote: » Choosing your main class is part of the roleplay aspect of some MMOs. They want you to feel that your primary choice has weight, and that you have consequences for that choice, as well as great benefits. It also prevents someone from being so geared they can switch to any class weapon and armor type on the fly to counter the average player with
TrUSivraj wrote: » SirChancelot11 wrote: » bloodprophet wrote: » Why? Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters. I didn't say everyone do everything. And just because I have a fighter/tank doesn't mean he can instantly tank now. You still have to have the gear, augments, and skill points set to be a tank. I'm not advocating the WoW/FFXIV style of click a button and swap your role. What I hope to see is some fluidity in primary archtypes so they are capable of building towards different roles. So not EVERY party needs a tank, a cleric, and then 6 whatever. Having a summoner/cleric geared for and built to be a healer instead of a DPS being capable of filling that role. You're asking to basically allow a ranger/tank to remove any reason for a tank/tank because "why be a pure tank if I can tank AND deal tons of dmg at the same time???" And if tank/x can deal tons of dmg while being a tank, you just nullified the entire identity of the tank primary archetype within this game. Tanks will draw aggro and mitigate dmg and have the skills to do so. A ranger/tank has dmg dealing skills but will have the ability to pull minor aggro and mitigate smaller amounts of dmg. Why is this upsetting to you? It's what you want, but at a less extreme of completely invalidating an entire class archetype.
SirChancelot11 wrote: » TrUSivraj wrote: » SirChancelot11 wrote: » bloodprophet wrote: » Why? Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters. I didn't say everyone do everything. And just because I have a fighter/tank doesn't mean he can instantly tank now. You still have to have the gear, augments, and skill points set to be a tank. I'm not advocating the WoW/FFXIV style of click a button and swap your role. What I hope to see is some fluidity in primary archtypes so they are capable of building towards different roles. So not EVERY party needs a tank, a cleric, and then 6 whatever. Having a summoner/cleric geared for and built to be a healer instead of a DPS being capable of filling that role. You're asking to basically allow a ranger/tank to remove any reason for a tank/tank because "why be a pure tank if I can tank AND deal tons of dmg at the same time???" And if tank/x can deal tons of dmg while being a tank, you just nullified the entire identity of the tank primary archetype within this game. Tanks will draw aggro and mitigate dmg and have the skills to do so. A ranger/tank has dmg dealing skills but will have the ability to pull minor aggro and mitigate smaller amounts of dmg. Why is this upsetting to you? It's what you want, but at a less extreme of completely invalidating an entire class archetype. No a ranger/tank if wanting to pick the role of tank wouldn't deal ranger level damage anymore, he would deal tank level damage. Which tracks since his skill points instead of being put into damage and CRIT like a hunter he would have to put them into CDR and mitigation. He would be trading his damage in for survivability. He would still use a bow. He would draw aggro and then snare and kite out targets out. This wouldn't remove the need for tank/tank because they would be better at holding up a shield and sitting on a choke point during a siege. Two very different identities, both maintain their primary flavor, and have very different play styles. But both are able to fulfill the role of tank in group content. As I said though, we don't know the extent of augment effects yet, and every time I ask about roles& archtypes I get a "we will see soon" 'esque answer... If it's just 8 classes with some upgrade options I won't be upset, but I'd love to see the ability for players to be creative and have more control in character builds.
bloodprophet wrote: » Except Ranger/Tank will not have Tank abilities just ranger abilities.
bloodprophet wrote: » And a lot less then some hopehttps://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes A player may choose a secondary archetype when they reach level 25.[3] The combination of primary and secondary archetypes is referred to as a class.[3][1][4] The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[10]
TrUSivraj wrote: » You have 9 primary skills. U get a subclass. U augment 9 skills into different versions of those 9 skills. The end.
Noaani wrote: » TrUSivraj wrote: » You have 9 primary skills. U get a subclass. U augment 9 skills into different versions of those 9 skills. The end. Actually, this isn't how it will work - not as far as we know, anyway. As far as we know currently, you gain skill points as you level. Skill points can be used to obtain new skills, improve existing skills (increase ranks), or augment skills with what augments you have available. Based on this, you are unlikely to augment all of your skills. This means a Necromancer is going to have many skills exactly the same as a Beastmaster.
TrUSivraj wrote: » Noaani wrote: » TrUSivraj wrote: » You have 9 primary skills. U get a subclass. U augment 9 skills into different versions of those 9 skills. The end. Actually, this isn't how it will work - not as far as we know, anyway. As far as we know currently, you gain skill points as you level. Skill points can be used to obtain new skills, improve existing skills (increase ranks), or augment skills with what augments you have available. Based on this, you are unlikely to augment all of your skills. This means a Necromancer is going to have many skills exactly the same as a Beastmaster. I jumped the gun on claiming to be able to augment ALL your active skills, I was just hastingly trying to make the point that I knew our subclass doesnt grant entirely new skills ontop of our current ones. I also wouldn't say 2 classes of the same primary would have many skills exactly the same, as each primary skill can be further invested in and not everyone will find the same value in the same skill's 2nd and third ranks. So you would still have a great deal of diversity in the skills learned, the points invested and the augments given by 2 of the same primaries with different subs. EDIT: Let's also add in that both your weapon and passive skills also have ranks that you can invest in, further diversifying your classes even more (tho passive skills only have 1 rank as far I remember from Alpha 1)
Noaani wrote: » TrUSivraj wrote: » Noaani wrote: » TrUSivraj wrote: » You have 9 primary skills. U get a subclass. U augment 9 skills into different versions of those 9 skills. The end. Actually, this isn't how it will work - not as far as we know, anyway. As far as we know currently, you gain skill points as you level. Skill points can be used to obtain new skills, improve existing skills (increase ranks), or augment skills with what augments you have available. Based on this, you are unlikely to augment all of your skills. This means a Necromancer is going to have many skills exactly the same as a Beastmaster. I jumped the gun on claiming to be able to augment ALL your active skills, I was just hastingly trying to make the point that I knew our subclass doesnt grant entirely new skills ontop of our current ones. I also wouldn't say 2 classes of the same primary would have many skills exactly the same, as each primary skill can be further invested in and not everyone will find the same value in the same skill's 2nd and third ranks. So you would still have a great deal of diversity in the skills learned, the points invested and the augments given by 2 of the same primaries with different subs. EDIT: Let's also add in that both your weapon and passive skills also have ranks that you can invest in, further diversifying your classes even more (tho passive skills only have 1 rank as far I remember from Alpha 1) While all of this may well be true, keep the following in mind. If you are a Necromancer and I am a Beastmasster, if we both opt for the same equipment and place our skill points on getting and improving the same abilities, and then only use augments we both got from our race, religion and/or social organization (we picked all three of these the same), then we would be identical. You're a Necromancer, I am a Beastmaster, but since neither of us in this scenario used any secondary class augments, they play no part at all in our build. Since everything else we picked as the same, we are the same. Sure, it is unlikely that two people would be exactly the same as you have said, but that is due to personal choices, not due to the class system.
Vhaeyne wrote: » "Class Fantasy" is a creative trap anyway. The most interesting D&D characters I have ever made have all been cross class. Taking elements of a few classes to create my own unique playstyle and character. In this way instead of being locked into class fantasy I end up with "Character fantasy". Which to me is more creative and special. This is essentially cross class with a two class restriction. Look at the chart for yourself, many of the class names are phoned in. Tank and Rouge... "Nightshield". What deep lore could that possibly have beyond a just that was a defensive front like warrior who learned a little bit of stealth? The best answer is: you decide. I am not an ArcheAge expert, but I do remember and understand this system:https://archeage.fandom.com/wiki/Classes 220 "classes" that are essentially nomenclature with no fantasy. If you learned nothing from my post, at least learn that ArcheAge is one of the four direct inspirations of Ashes.
ThornyDevil wrote: » Vhaeyne wrote: » "Class Fantasy" is a creative trap anyway. The most interesting D&D characters I have ever made have all been cross class. Taking elements of a few classes to create my own unique playstyle and character. In this way instead of being locked into class fantasy I end up with "Character fantasy". Which to me is more creative and special. This is essentially cross class with a two class restriction. Look at the chart for yourself, many of the class names are phoned in. Tank and Rouge... "Nightshield". What deep lore could that possibly have beyond a just that was a defensive front like warrior who learned a little bit of stealth? The best answer is: you decide. I am not an ArcheAge expert, but I do remember and understand this system:https://archeage.fandom.com/wiki/Classes 220 "classes" that are essentially nomenclature with no fantasy. If you learned nothing from my post, at least learn that ArcheAge is one of the four direct inspirations of Ashes. I do agree with you. I am not looking to lock in class fantasy. I simply hope they will add in class flavour. I am very familiar with AA system and the ridiculous abundance of classes just made them all generic. I am happy the way they go with the 8 primary classes. You can't go wrong there. My only wish is that the secondary tree gives you the flavour of your "specialization". For summoners for example, once you become a necromancer, your summons can then either be undeads, squelettons, ghosts, banshees or whatever in that realm while the beastmaster summons wild beasts and the falconer, birds of prey or even just one falcon as his companion. I also welcome IS to introduce us new takes on their classes. You mentioned Nightshield, I have no pre concepts of what that could be or do, I just wish that the animations give a Nightshield flavour like shadowy looking protective bubbles, smoke bombs, etc.
Wandering Mist wrote: » SirChancelot11 wrote: » bloodprophet wrote: » Podgnil wrote: » 8 classes is more then enough, for good rpg enough 5 classes mage, ranger, assasin, fighter and cliric. Main question: can intrpd balance classes and subclasess and make them diferences really important. Because even one different spell can change game play, ure will craft and seek another armor, u will have another role in dungeon, and pvp gamestale. MAIN is balance them and make unique. In balance I mean not equil dps for dd and equil heal for heals, I mean thet every class be usefull in some game aspect and people will not play in same builds, stat caps and equip. For example rogue/rogue is best in instant mele dmg, and can awesome burst the target and rogue/cliric have less instant and tunel damage but have lifesteal. So one will have equip to be glass canon, and second focus on long fights and surviving, some heal perks on equip and etc. Your primary archetype will set your role. Tank will tank and Cleric will heal.https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Roleshttps://ashesofcreation.wiki/Archetypes I keep asking whether that is true or not for the live streams and haven't gotten an answer yet Also: Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4] I'm still going to stand by I hope what you say isn't the case, huge missed opportunity if it is.... Yes, the idea is that the primary archetype sets your initial role (the "Tank" tanks, the "Cleric" heals, etc), but the secondary class blurs the line of these hard set roles. So a Tank/Mage will still tank but will be more of a damage dealer than a Tank/Tank. That's the general idea anyway, we'll have to see what happens when the augment system gets implemented.
TrUSivraj wrote: » Your statement on the necro and beastmaster summons is already an official confirmation from a livestream and thus the wiki, which is why I have no doubt that these classes will fulfill their visual and mechanical roles within the combat of the game, because we have already been given examples of what to expect, aside from it only being dev talk and not a visual representation yet.
