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Class fantasy
ThornyDevil
Member
I really hope this game does well from launch. The one thing I find unsatisfying in current MMOs is that classes are either too restricted (not enough choice) or lack class identity.
So far, with 64 classes to choose from we can't say classes will be restricted and I am glad that IS is going for a Archeage type of class combos. However, my concerns go to class identity. In Archeage, you hardly get a feel for the class.
For example, from the classes to choose from in AoC, would the Falconer play with a Falcon? Do you guys think classes will have that class identity as per their names?
So far, with 64 classes to choose from we can't say classes will be restricted and I am glad that IS is going for a Archeage type of class combos. However, my concerns go to class identity. In Archeage, you hardly get a feel for the class.
For example, from the classes to choose from in AoC, would the Falconer play with a Falcon? Do you guys think classes will have that class identity as per their names?
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Imagine the rogue/fighter and fighter/rogue, both using dual wield. Now add to the mix the fighter/tank and rogue/tank. And now add the fighter/fighter and rogue/rogue.
From the above 6 combos, only 2 or maybe 3 will be viable for more than roleplay. Only those will have a distinct feel to it.
Take the ranger/ranger class. Now apply all the other combos to this archer-type playstyle. How many do you think will make sense to pick at the end of the day?
One or two.
And everything else X/ranger? Will they be competitive choices?
I doubt it.
Let's wait for further development regarding the classes and then give feedback, hoping that if there is a need for big changes, there will also be time to implement them.
But I share your concerns.
So for rangers, the soulbow could get a mystic shot ability. The sentinel gets a piercing vision spell *allowing him to detect stealthies*. The scout gets a stealth mechanic, etc.
They did say it will be a rock, paper, scissors type of design so hopefully, most classes would have their usefulness in countering others. Plus, I think if flavourful enough people will end up picking these classes for its fantasy.
I'm afraid this won't happen. The secondary classes don't grant any extra abilities (those only come from the primary archetype). All they do is add augments that change the way some skills work.
For example, a Bowsinger (Ranger/Bard) and a Soulbow (Ranger/Cleric) will have the same basic abilities, but the Bowsinger will get Bard-inspired augments whereas the Soulbow will get Cleric-inspired augments.
Also, the balancing of the classes will be done on a a group scale, not an individual 1v1 scale.
Two questions,
So how different will ''classes'' from eachother then? Will they be as different as wow specs are from eachother?
Also, why won't intrepid re-name the ''classes'' to ''specs'' or something more appropriate?
The word ''class'' tends to have a heavy meaning among mmo-rpg gamers (games) and here it's clearly not justified, only leading to a very large number of people being mislead.
We don't know for sure how different the classes will be, as we only have a couple of examples of augments so far. We won't know much more than that until all the base archetypes are implemented and the devs start working on the augment system.
As for names, the naming convention comes directly from Steven so it's unlikely to change.
But we don't know the extent of how the cleric augments will effect the ranger/cleric. Will it be able to change the ability from a direct damage to a heal, letting the soulbow be a healer? Or just add a minor self heal? Or choose death school augments and add a decrepify debuff on hit?
We really don't know the extent of these systems yet...
Class identity is lacking in many newer mmos and i even think that is one of the big 5 reasons why mmos have lost a bit of its charm and character.
But just the fact they are planning to have these 8 archtypes eases my nerves a bit.
Unfortunatly I think you are going to be able to wear whatever armor and weapons you like if im not mistaken.
One game that does class identity extremely well is obviously warhammer online, each class is amazing and are viable plus feel completely different from eachother. I'm such a sucker for warhammer fantasy universe overall but i guess i have to accept that no other games will be exactly like that
I just hope the classes are all going to be good and feel uniqe and not like new world where everyone runs around in heavy armor with 2H axe or whatever the meta setup is for that specific month.
It doesn't have to be radically different to have very different identity
Look at summoner. A necromancer and beastmaster are both 'summoners' but hopefully have very different asthetics and are easily identifiable from each other.
Agreed. If we read the wiki, Steven stated that skills CAN potentially be altered into completely different skills, but you'll still have an identity of what the skill once was.
So a falconer(ranger summ) using the augmented flame arrow ( linear field of flame) and turning it into a linear field of thorns that slow and snare is pretty different than a scion (ranger/mage) turning it into a field of frost that slows and freezes OR leaving a tether at max range that the ranger can recast to teleport to, or a soul bow (ranger cleric) turning it into a field of healing over time, with Hawkeye (ranger x2) just making flame arrow stronger by increasing dmg or field size.
EDIT: When it comes to " class reflection " we can look at the simple fact that, say a Tank/ranger (warden) vs a Ranger/tank (sentinel) would have two entirely different primary skills from the start.
So a sentinel turning augmented flame arrow into a grappling /tether shot that leaves targets in a small diameter until they break off by moving in a certain direction for a period of time, will be fundamentally different from a Warden using Augmented "Javelin" to snare a successfully pulled target in place.
Small or fundamentally different changes for each class, yet give them their own identity and purpose. I find that quite acceptable.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
Which is why honest and calculated feedback during the beta phase of testing will be super important.
I hope to be an Intrepid Pack member by then and participate myself ...
We have a decent understanding that sub cleric classes can heal, but never to the extent of replacing the healer primary archetype. You should absolutely expect some skills to do dmg and heal at the same time, just not to an extreme extent.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
Your primary archetype will set your role. Tank will tank and Cleric will heal.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Roles
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Archetypes
You should expect some subclass comboes to be far worse in PvE/PvP than others. If you have a healer in a party of 5, do you need to be healing yourself or could you have more dmg or more cc, or maybe you're fighting a big boss and you can't cc it, so you may as well have more dmg while being able to heal yourself while your cleric is busy. The perk in this game, is that you'll have different schools for each of your augments, so maybe you won't have to change spec, but simply change what your Augment is currently doing.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
Messed up twice lol. My subclass response was towards you xD
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
I keep asking whether that is true or not for the live streams and haven't gotten an answer yet
Also:
Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4]
I'm still going to stand by I hope what you say isn't the case, huge missed opportunity if it is....
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.
I didn't say everyone do everything. And just because I have a fighter/tank doesn't mean he can instantly tank now. You still have to have the gear, augments, and skill points set to be a tank.
I'm not advocating the WoW/FFXIV style of click a button and swap your role. What I hope to see is some fluidity in primary archtypes so they are capable of building towards different roles. So not EVERY party needs a tank, a cleric, and then 6 whatever. Having a summoner/cleric geared for and built to be a healer instead of a DPS being capable of filling that role.
Yeah hard disagree on primary archetype there. Archeage did similar of what you're wanting, and that was half the reason class balance was so bad in that game. I'd rather have a class combo with different skill variants than a character that can be a mix of any class tree available including their skills.
Choosing your main class is part of the roleplay aspect of some MMOs. They want you to feel that your primary choice has weight, and that you have consequences for that choice, as well as great benefits.
It also prevents someone from being so geared they can switch to any class weapon and armor type on the fly to counter the average player with.
You are a Ranger, you spent years becoming a master of the bow. Would be odd that suddenly you are the master of shield and sword with near nonexistent practice prior.
Just flavor, but I honestly enjoy that much more than a jack-of-all-trades character that is somehow capable of doing everything perfectly.
Opinion in the end, but I'm happy with their decision.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
You're asking to basically allow a ranger/tank to remove any reason for a tank/tank because "why be a pure tank if I can tank AND deal tons of dmg at the same time???" And if tank/x can deal tons of dmg while being a tank, you just nullified the entire identity of the tank primary archetype within this game.
Tanks will draw aggro and mitigate dmg and have the skills to do so. A ranger/tank has dmg dealing skills but will have the ability to pull minor aggro and mitigate smaller amounts of dmg. Why is this upsetting to you? It's what you want, but at a less extreme of completely invalidating an entire class archetype.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
Yes. Most importantly though, they want players to work together. Having gaps promotes teamwork.
No a ranger/tank if wanting to pick the role of tank wouldn't deal ranger level damage anymore, he would deal tank level damage. Which tracks since his skill points instead of being put into damage and CRIT like a hunter he would have to put them into CDR and mitigation. He would be trading his damage in for survivability.
He would still use a bow. He would draw aggro and then snare and kite out targets out. This wouldn't remove the need for tank/tank because they would be better at holding up a shield and sitting on a choke point during a siege. Two very different identities, both maintain their primary flavor, and have very different play styles. But both are able to fulfill the role of tank in group content.
As I said though, we don't know the extent of augment effects yet, and every time I ask about roles& archtypes I get a "we will see soon" 'esque answer...
If it's just 8 classes with some upgrade options I won't be upset, but I'd love to see the ability for players to be creative and have more control in character builds.
You guys are setting yourself up for disappointment and I hate to see it.
"Class Fantasy" is a creative trap anyway. The most interesting D&D characters I have ever made have all been cross class. Taking elements of a few classes to create my own unique playstyle and character. In this way instead of being locked into class fantasy I end up with "Character fantasy". Which to me is more creative and special.
This is essentially cross class with a two class restriction. Look at the chart for yourself, many of the class names are phoned in. Tank and Rouge... "Nightshield". What deep lore could that possibly have beyond a just that was a defensive front like warrior who learned a little bit of stealth? The best answer is: you decide.
I am not an ArcheAge expert, but I do remember and understand this system:
https://archeage.fandom.com/wiki/Classes
220 "classes" that are essentially nomenclature with no fantasy. If you learned nothing from my post, at least learn that ArcheAge is one of the four direct inspirations of Ashes.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
A ranger tank will have the power to tank in a more minor roll aka off tanking. What you stated in your recent post is exactly what we can expect from a ranger/tank. Their augmented skills will give them a tradeoff of dmg for survivability in some way, and may also give them minor threat generation from something like snaring enemies with their augmented snare skills. They will be able to tank, but they won't be able to maintain that aggro and mitigation on the same level as a tank primary.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
Subclass augments can change skills to be a mix of both classes at a smaller scale.
Read the augment wiki for more official info on how the augments will work, its going to be much more than some ppl seem to believe.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes
A player may choose a secondary archetype when they reach level 25.[3] The combination of primary and secondary archetypes is referred to as a class.[3][1][4]
The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[10]
You didn't state anything different from what I already stated. We already know the secondary class doesn't give new skills, IT CHANGES THE PRIMARY SKILLS of a main archetype into something slightly or drastically different. This isn't news.
You have 9 primary skills.
U get a subclass.
U augment 9 skills into different versions of those 9 skills.
The end.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj