Class fantasy

I really hope this game does well from launch. The one thing I find unsatisfying in current MMOs is that classes are either too restricted (not enough choice) or lack class identity.

So far, with 64 classes to choose from we can't say classes will be restricted and I am glad that IS is going for a Archeage type of class combos. However, my concerns go to class identity. In Archeage, you hardly get a feel for the class.

For example, from the classes to choose from in AoC, would the Falconer play with a Falcon? Do you guys think classes will have that class identity as per their names?

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

ThornyDevil

TrUSivraj wrote: »

I personally think a spellshield tank/mage would simply be a tank that can eat more magic dmg than other tanks, or that could dive into the teleportation school and give themselves an extra form(s) of mobility.

Yes like the spellbreakers in WC3 that would be sick af. Having tanks that can absorb more nature dmg, magic dmg or physical dmg would give variety and purpose to those dedicated to these roles. I also view fighter/tanks as bruisers basically. They don't have as much dmg as full on fighters but they can absorb a bit more dmg.

TrUSivraj

ThornyDevil wrote: »

TrUSivraj wrote: »

Your statement on the necro and beastmaster summons is already an official confirmation from a livestream and thus the wiki, which is why I have no doubt that these classes will fulfill their visual and mechanical roles within the combat of the game, because we have already been given examples of what to expect, aside from it only being dev talk and not a visual representation yet.

Alright cool then, that ease my concerns quite a bit. I did missed that info.
This is where AA missed the opportunity. No matter the archetypes you choose, skills don't change visually so your "class" has very little identity in the end.

I think it is great that they get inspired from AA system as it gives loads of freedom and still can polish its flaws which was class identity. Even if, I do understand that some classes will be easier than others to give flavour to, I just hope they give it a try

Very well said! I enjoyed playing a shadehunter in AA, basically put it on the map (insert video plugs here) and one thing that actually made it feel like I was actually playing a shadowy archer was when "stone endless arrow" gave a dark effect to every shot, making it feel all Sylvanas-like.

Then they made it super slow and a weird aoe mob/raid skill, so... lol So having those types of small effects in the different classes will definitely bring some life into class diversity. I can already picture ranger/bards using fireworks as their flame arrow augment, basically becoming AA's concussive arrow, but with prettier firework effects!

ThornyDevil

TrUSivraj wrote: »

Very well said! I enjoyed playing a shadehunter in AA, basically put it on the map (insert video plugs here) and one thing that actually made it feel like I was actually playing a shadowy archer was when "stone endless arrow" gave a dark effect to every shot, making it feel all Sylvanas-like.

Then they made it super slow and a weird aoe mob/raid skill, so... lol So having those types of small effects in the different classes will definitely bring some life into class diversity. I can already picture ranger/bards using fireworks as their flame arrow augment, basically becoming AA's concussive arrow, but with prettier firework effects!

Love your ideas for class fantasy and loved your post on the falconer. I always play wizard classes (warlocks, shamans, mages, priests) but heck if they pull off a falconer in this game I am 100% rolling one.

Py'rai (wood elf) or a Vaelune (desert folk) falconer for me!

Noaani

TrUSivraj wrote: »

Your statement on the necro and beastmaster summons is already an official confirmation from a livestream and thus the wiki, which is why I have no doubt that these classes will fulfill their visual and mechanical roles within the combat of the game, because we have already been given examples of what to expect, aside from it only being dev talk and not a visual representation yet.

Assuming you are talking about summoned pets with class specific augments.

Nothing Intrepid have said says anything at all about just your class affecting the appearance of your summons, though by augmenting your summons with an augment from your secondary class, you then alter the appearance of it.

What this means is that you may well be a Necromancer with a zombie as a tank pet, but since you didn't augment your DPS pet at all, it is still the standard fire elemental or whatever that is the summoner archetype base.

Ironhope

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

It doesn't have to be radically different to have very different identity
Look at summoner. A necromancer and beastmaster are both 'summoners' but hopefully have very different asthetics and are easily identifiable from each other.

They hopefully have different enough gameplay to distinguish them from eachother because a new skin doesn't mean a new class/spec/whatever, it means nothing in terms of gameplay which is whta 90% of people are interested in.

Ironhope

bloodprophet wrote: »

Why?
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.

Choices should matter, exactly.

So if you choose to be a cleric dps (dps focused hybrid where the main % of the performance comes from the damage being deal and the rest of the % performance comes from support spells) shouldn't that matter?

Ironhope

Vhaeyne wrote: »

You guys are setting yourself up for disappointment and I hate to see it.

It's not the fault of the people but the fault of intrepid for using words like ''class'' with apparently no justification.

If I make a Pizza Restaurant and you come expecting Pizza but I tell you you misunderstood, is it your fault?

No.

Vhaeyne wrote: »

. In this way instead of being locked into class fantasy I end up with "Character fantasy". Which to me is more creative and special.

But what about people who do want a ''locked class fantasy'' (by that I'm guessing you mean a well established fantasy for a class) and get disappointed?
What about them?

Because there's going to be a lot of people who are going to come with legitimate expectations based on words like ''Templar'', ''Necromancer'', ''Warlock'', etc ?

We're going to be looking at a lot of legitimat expectations being shattered by illegitimate usage of the word ''class''.

SirChancelot

bloodprophet wrote: »

Except Ranger/Tank will not have Tank abilities just ranger abilities.

True
But tank augments can change these abilities to a level that don't know yet. We don't even know what a tank augment School is yet. It's possible that they have threat and mitigation schools. If I was to add threat to my hunter abilities and shift my damage boost cooldown to mitigation. I could reflavor all of my abilities into tank ones.

Are they going to do this with augments? Will they have this level of impact? I don't know. All I've been saying is I hope they do. I hope they allow players to come up with more creative means of play.

I know this isn't a MMO but think of league of legends. You have a character that was designed to be something like a tank, take Leona for example. But then you have people that choose DPS runes and items for a mage and treat her like a mage. She's now not as tanky, but is more of a melee mage. I'm hoping that augments give freedom to change builds like that, rather than just minor "add fire damage" effects.

Wandering Mist wrote: »

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Podgnil wrote: »

8 classes is more then enough, for good rpg enough 5 classes mage, ranger, assasin, fighter and cliric. Main question: can intrpd balance classes and subclasess and make them diferences really important. Because even one different spell can change game play, ure will craft and seek another armor, u will have another role in dungeon, and pvp gamestale. MAIN is balance them and make unique. In balance I mean not equil dps for dd and equil heal for heals, I mean thet every class be usefull in some game aspect and people will not play in same builds, stat caps and equip. For example rogue/rogue is best in instant mele dmg, and can awesome burst the target and rogue/cliric have less instant and tunel damage but have lifesteal. So one will have equip to be glass canon, and second focus on long fights and surviving, some heal perks on equip and etc.

Your primary archetype will set your role. Tank will tank and Cleric will heal.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Roles
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Archetypes

I keep asking whether that is true or not for the live streams and haven't gotten an answer yet

Also:
Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4]

I'm still going to stand by I hope what you say isn't the case, huge missed opportunity if it is....

Yes, the idea is that the primary archetype sets your initial role (the "Tank" tanks, the "Cleric" heals, etc), but the secondary class blurs the line of these hard set roles. So a Tank/Mage will still tank but will be more of a damage dealer than a Tank/Tank.

That's the general idea anyway, we'll have to see what happens when the augment system gets implemented.

That line of "you shouldn't feel branded by your primary archetype" is a quote from the wiki, not me. Which is why I keep asking my question about role flexibility. Will any version x/tank be able to tank or will any cleric/x be an efficient DPS instead of being pigeonholed into only healing... No answer yet.

Noaani wrote: »

TrUSivraj wrote: »

You have 9 primary skills.
U get a subclass.
U augment 9 skills into different versions of those 9 skills.
The end.

Actually, this isn't how it will work - not as far as we know, anyway.

As far as we know currently, you gain skill points as you level. Skill points can be used to obtain new skills, improve existing skills (increase ranks), or augment skills with what augments you have available.

Based on this, you are unlikely to augment all of your skills.

This means a Necromancer is going to have many skills exactly the same as a Beastmaster.

Ok, but if I only unlock a few skills I could augment everything couldn't I?
If I put skill points into unlocking every ability available, no I can't augment every one. But if I only unlock half, I should be able to augment that half... At least that's the way I've been reading that.

And it's ok if Necro and BM have similar abilities if they are 'support' abilities for your minions. Such as healing, or increase attack/move speed buffs... That still makes sense as they are summoners.

TrUSivraj

Ironhope wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

You guys are setting yourself up for disappointment and I hate to see it.

It's not the fault of the people but the fault of intrepid for using words like ''class'' with apparently no justification.

If I make a Pizza Restaurant and you come expecting Pizza but I tell you you misunderstood, is it your fault?

No.

Steven has stated in a livestream that there will only be 8 actual classes, and that class combo's are simply variants of those classes with different fundamentals based on your augments. I don't get all this negative hearsay as if we haven't been given direct information on how they expect their class system to work.

If you're a ranger, and you pick summoner, some of your augmented skills will be fundamentally different than that of a Hawkeye, scion, soulbow, etc. While some will stay the same, which is entirely based on your skill choices.

You SHOULD have similarities, you are still the same primary archetype, you simply gain a bit of flavor based on your subclass that will potentially change how you approach different combat situations.

A falconer and a Hawkeye still use a bow, but the falconer has a falcon helping them out sometimes, while the Hawkeye has superior precision/dmg on some of both the falconer and Hawkeyes skills. These skills are not going to be overly flashy, they're small changes (mostly) that give each class combo a bit of uniqueness.

The falconer could dive into a completely different summoner school and not use a (living) falcon at all, but instead enchant their weapon and armor/self in some way to increase dmg and movement.

How are 4 schools of augments for each subclass not going to change how your character works in some way? Ask yourself that question.. that's 32 skill variants for any one skill just from the 8 primary class schools. Then you add in that you have roughly 7-9+ skills to choose from that you can augment.. not understanding the fuss at all.

Vhaeyne

Ironhope wrote: »

It's not the fault of the people but the fault of intrepid for using words like ''class'' with apparently no justification.

If I make a Pizza Restaurant and you come expecting Pizza but I tell you you misunderstood, is it your fault?

No.

The pizza analogy is perfect here because pizza is different in different parts of the world. We have multiple styles of pizza in the United States, and many people refuse to call other pizza styles than the ones they like pizza.

Just like many games use the word class differently.

There really should be no expectation for the word class other than the fact that games use it differently.

Ironhope wrote: »

But what about people who do want a ''locked class fantasy'' (by that I'm guessing you mean a well established fantasy for a class) and get disappointed?
What about them?

They maybe excited about the wrong game. At a minimum, they are excited about this game for the wrong reason.

If I wanted to get into FFXIV expecting it to have good PvP right now. I would be excited about that game for the wrong reason. With a minor amount of research, people learn that FFXIV has PvP, but it's not very good.

The same is true for Ashes. Just read the class page on the wiki.

TrUSivraj

Ironhope wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Why?
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.

Choices should matter, exactly.

So if you choose to be a cleric dps (dps focused hybrid where the main % of the performance comes from the damage being deal and the rest of the % performance comes from support spells) shouldn't that matter?

Healers can't main dps
Dps can't main heal
Either can't main tank
Tanks can't main either

Drill this in our heads, and you'll be alot happier going forward, knowing what you subspec into is only going to give you the illusion of being a hybrid class, but will ultimately fall short to any class tailored to actual dmg dealing/healing/tanking.

Your cleric/fighter is going to be a healer first, and have some offensive skills in the mix that will more or less allow you to be a bit more aggressive, but in no way to the point of ever being capable of outdpsing a fighter/cleric, who also can never heal as well as you.

Wandering Mist

TrUSivraj wrote: »

Ironhope wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Why?
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.

Choices should matter, exactly.

So if you choose to be a cleric dps (dps focused hybrid where the main % of the performance comes from the damage being deal and the rest of the % performance comes from support spells) shouldn't that matter?

Healers can't main dps
Dps can't main heal
Either can't main tank
Tanks can't main either

Drill this in our heads, and you'll be alot happier going forward, knowing what you subspec into is only going to give you the illusion of being a hybrid class, but will ultimately fall short to any class tailored to actual dmg dealing/healing/tanking.

Your cleric/fighter is going to be a healer first, and have some offensive skills in the mix that will more or less allow you to be a bit more aggressive, but in no way to the point of ever being capable of outdpsing a fighter/cleric, who also can never heal as well as you.

Let's not make assumptions, as we don't know what each class can and cannot do. A lot of it depends on what kind of augments we get and how the content is balanced.

TrUSivraj

Wandering Mist wrote: »

TrUSivraj wrote: »

Ironhope wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Why?
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.

Choices should matter, exactly.

So if you choose to be a cleric dps (dps focused hybrid where the main % of the performance comes from the damage being deal and the rest of the % performance comes from support spells) shouldn't that matter?

Healers can't main dps
Dps can't main heal
Either can't main tank
Tanks can't main either

Drill this in our heads, and you'll be alot happier going forward, knowing what you subspec into is only going to give you the illusion of being a hybrid class, but will ultimately fall short to any class tailored to actual dmg dealing/healing/tanking.

Your cleric/fighter is going to be a healer first, and have some offensive skills in the mix that will more or less allow you to be a bit more aggressive, but in no way to the point of ever being capable of outdpsing a fighter/cleric, who also can never heal as well as you.

Let's not make assumptions, as we don't know what each class can and cannot do. A lot of it depends on what kind of augments we get and how the content is balanced.

It's not an assumption, it's an official statement. Your sub class WILL NOT replace the primary archetypes roles.

CROW3

Noaani wrote: »

If you are a Necromancer and I am a Beastmasster, if we both opt for the same equipment and place our skill points on getting and improving the same abilities, and then only use augments we both got from our race, religion and/or social organization (we picked all three of these the same), then we would be identical.

You're a Necromancer, I am a Beastmaster, but since neither of us in this scenario used any secondary class augments, they play no part at all in our build. Since everything else we picked as the same, we are the same.

Sure, it is unlikely that two people would be exactly the same as you have said, but that is due to personal choices, not due to the class system.

I think we should test this in Beta One.

neuroguy

I worry about class identity as well... when I found out that all classes will use mana I was pretty disappointed. The archetypes I thought should feel as different as possible at least since all we get is augments from the secondary and all of them using the same resource system does not contribute to that. But as always, gotta see it before making a final judgement.

SirChancelot

TrUSivraj wrote: »

Ironhope wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Why?
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.

Choices should matter, exactly.

So if you choose to be a cleric dps (dps focused hybrid where the main % of the performance comes from the damage being deal and the rest of the % performance comes from support spells) shouldn't that matter?

Healers can't main dps
Dps can't main heal
Either can't main tank
Tanks can't main either

Drill this in our heads, and you'll be alot happier going forward, knowing what you subspec into is only going to give you the illusion of being a hybrid class, but will ultimately fall short to any class tailored to actual dmg dealing/healing/tanking.

Your cleric/fighter is going to be a healer first, and have some offensive skills in the mix that will more or less allow you to be a bit more aggressive, but in no way to the point of ever being capable of outdpsing a fighter/cleric, who also can never heal as well as you.

It's on the wiki
A quote from a live stream

"Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4]"

That gives me the impression that it could be flexible...

Sidenote: please don't talk like you KNOW the answers when we don't have enough info. I fully accept that we don't know yet, and I am content with waiting. All of this is merely conjecture.
This is why I use the phrase I HOPE that there is more flexibility.

TrUSivraj

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

TrUSivraj wrote: »

Ironhope wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Why?
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.

Choices should matter, exactly.

So if you choose to be a cleric dps (dps focused hybrid where the main % of the performance comes from the damage being deal and the rest of the % performance comes from support spells) shouldn't that matter?

Healers can't main dps
Dps can't main heal
Either can't main tank
Tanks can't main either

Drill this in our heads, and you'll be alot happier going forward, knowing what you subspec into is only going to give you the illusion of being a hybrid class, but will ultimately fall short to any class tailored to actual dmg dealing/healing/tanking.

Your cleric/fighter is going to be a healer first, and have some offensive skills in the mix that will more or less allow you to be a bit more aggressive, but in no way to the point of ever being capable of outdpsing a fighter/cleric, who also can never heal as well as you.

It's on the wiki
A quote from a live stream

"Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4]"

That gives me the impression that it could be flexible...

Sidenote: please don't talk like you KNOW the answers when we don't have enough info. I fully accept that we don't know yet, and I am content with waiting. All of this is merely conjecture.
This is why I use the phrase I HOPE that there is more flexibility.

If you feel I'm speaking as if I KNOW anything, then you're misreading the tone of my responses. I am only interpreting what official devs (livestreams mainly) have directly told us.

That statement on not being branded by your primary was clearly directed at your class being able to do a bit of something else, while still being its primary archetype. Archer healing, mage off tanking, rogue using magic, etc.

Steven specifically stated in a livestream that primaries, notably tanks and Healers, will not be replaced by subclasses of other primary archetypes. (Rangers,fighters,bards,mages). Summoners are a special case, as their pets will be able to tank/dps, and I believe heal too.

None of this is me just stating theory as fact, it's simply official devs stating what things will and will not do on paper with no visual example yet (except the fighter teleporting with charge under the effects of the mage subclass teleportation school).

SirChancelot

This

TrUSivraj wrote: »

Healers can't main dps
Dps can't main heal
Either can't main tank
Tanks can't main either

Drill this in our heads, and you'll be alot happier going forward, knowing what you subspec into is only going to give you the illusion of being a hybrid class, but will ultimately fall short to any class tailored to actual dmg dealing/healing/tanking.

Your cleric/fighter is going to be a healer first, and have some offensive skills in the mix that will more or less allow you to be a bit more aggressive, but in no way to the point of ever being capable of outdpsing a fighter/cleric, who also can never heal as well as you.

Sounds like you talking like you KNOW the answers...

That's just your interpretation of what you've read. I've quoted stuff that is in direct contrast to this. But the thing is we could BOTH be wrong, we don't KNOW what IS is doing behind close doors or how anything that we are going off of here has changed in the past year. We can't debate class design and party roles while they still haven't even hammered out what combat will be like.

Honestly all of our dev quotes could be outdated since they're from 2-4 years ago... We don't KNOW what has changed in that time. All we can do is share opinions, and hope we like what we hear when we finally get some more news. Or I get an answer one of these months on the Q&A threads.

Noaani

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

TrUSivraj wrote: »

You have 9 primary skills.
U get a subclass.
U augment 9 skills into different versions of those 9 skills.
The end.

Actually, this isn't how it will work - not as far as we know, anyway.

As far as we know currently, you gain skill points as you level. Skill points can be used to obtain new skills, improve existing skills (increase ranks), or augment skills with what augments you have available.

Based on this, you are unlikely to augment all of your skills.

This means a Necromancer is going to have many skills exactly the same as a Beastmaster.

Ok, but if I only unlock a few skills I could augment everything couldn't I?
If I put skill points into unlocking every ability available, no I can't augment every one. But if I only unlock half, I should be able to augment that half... At least that's the way I've been reading that.

And it's ok if Necro and BM have similar abilities if they are 'support' abilities for your minions. Such as healing, or increase attack/move speed buffs... That still makes sense as they are summoners.

It is possible you will be able to augment every skill you unlock if you only unlock half of the skills available to you, although this may also not be true. However, even if it is true, you will then be left with all of your skills at rank 1 out of 3.

Since what you seem to be wanting here is almost exclusively a visual thing, I think the best thing to hope for are spell cosmetics on the cash shop - something I expect to see in one form or another after the game launches.

Noaani

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

It's on the wiki
A quote from a live stream

"Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4]"

That gives me the impression that it could be flexible...

While they have said this, they have also said that when you pick your primary class, that IS your role.

So, at best, we have conflicting information on the matter - meaning don't go in with a specific expectation unless we get clarification specifically talking about this conflict of information.

Child Item