Class fantasy

I really hope this game does well from launch. The one thing I find unsatisfying in current MMOs is that classes are either too restricted (not enough choice) or lack class identity.

So far, with 64 classes to choose from we can't say classes will be restricted and I am glad that IS is going for a Archeage type of class combos. However, my concerns go to class identity. In Archeage, you hardly get a feel for the class.

For example, from the classes to choose from in AoC, would the Falconer play with a Falcon? Do you guys think classes will have that class identity as per their names?

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Azherae

Atama wrote: »

Spurius wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Ironhope wrote: »

The simple fact it is in the paladin's nature to be able to heal (it's an instrinsic aspect of the paladin) at least to some decent level (even if not specialized in healing but in tanking or dps) makes you a hybrid, not the role your friends want you to fill.

This only holds true in games like WoW.

There are other games out there where the Paladin is a healer, and others still where it is a tank. In EQ2 for example, the Paladin was a tank, but rather than mitigating damage like some tanks, or avoiding damage like some other tanks, they were able to heal themselves of some damage.

That doesn't make them a healer though, because they were not able to fulfil the role of a healer in a group.

What if they were able not to fulfill, but supplement the role of a healer? What if a paladin would be tanking and at the same time healing not only himself, but others in his group as well? Doing, lets say, 20% of a healer's HPS? You still need a main healer, but that kind of paladin would just make a life of that healer somewhat easier.
Would that kind of paladin be a hybrid? And would that paladin be bad for the game in some way?

It’s moot since we’ve already been told that having Cleric as a secondary class only gives you self-healing. Your paladin scenario can’t happen, sorry. This is why we’re saying forget about the hybrid idea. In this game, they want roles to be pretty rigid.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Healing

To clarify from that same link though...

Choosing life augments will provide self-healing benefits as well as limited life-giving benefits to other players.[18][16]
Some cleric augments applied to certain skills will indirectly provide the ability to heal others. These will not replace the need for a cleric archetype.

Dolyem

My highsword class fantasy is to have the ability to enact canon crusades against the tulnar furry heretics

CROW3

When I think of mage/rogue that wizard assassin from The Witcher comes to mind.

Noaani

Spurius wrote: »

Would that kind of paladin be a hybrid? And would that paladin be bad for the game in some way?

It isn't a hybrid.

If that paladin isn't a le to fulfill the role of a healer in that group, they are not a hybrid tank/healer. This goes back to notion that a tank or healer being able to do some damage doesn't make them a hybrid DPS.

In order to be a hybrid, you need to be able to fill that role in a group.

A paladin with some healing ability is taking that healing ability at the expense of other aspects of tanking (specifically in relation to survivability) that other tank/* classes are able to take.

This is perfectly viable, and is literally what I described a paladin in another game as doing. This does not make them a hybrid, however.

In this situation, you have a tank that is able to take on some of the healers role in healing the group a little, but requires more focus from that healer to keep that tank alive (due to having to forgo other survivability aspects that other tanks have access to).

This is perfectly viable, and if the game has a healer class that specializes in keeping one target alive, this may be a good pairing.

For a third time though, this doesn't make them a hybrid. That paladin is a tank, and only a tank. They may go about being an effective tank in a different manner, but tanking is still the only role they can fulfill in a group.

Spurius

CROW3 wrote: »

When I think of mage/rogue that wizard assassin from The Witcher comes to mind.

Don't remind me. What have they done to Vilgefortz...

CROW3

Spurius wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

When I think of mage/rogue that wizard assassin from The Witcher comes to mind.

Don't remind me. What have they done to Vilgefortz...

Yeah, I hear you. Some of their adaptations have been silly - though they look like militant anachronists compared to the cluster-f*ck the Amazon team is doing to WoT.

Spurius

My Vilgerfortz class fantasy was very different, lets just say that. He sure is a hybrid all right!

*lets pretend we are not going off topic*

Atama

I wonder how well you can make a Fighter/Mage resemble a Witcher?

Ironhope

TrUSivraj wrote: »

You need to broaden your imagination here... they've already claimed to have evasion tanks in the game... what combo of Tank would likely have evasion as its form of tanking specialization? Tank/RANGER and/or Tank/ROGUE. Just because the subclass archetype is dps, doesn't mean in any way that your going to be thrown tons of dmg, you could instead be thrown a niche mitigation mechanic from said dps archetype just the same (evasion).

DPS is the main element of rogue and ranger and assuming the main element of the class you will fuse with will be absent more or less negates the whole concept of the system Intrepid said they will use.

Also the presence of an evasion tank could be achieved via stats and gear more than combining any two archetypes, so let's not jump to assumptions regarding it.

TrUSivraj wrote: »

You can just as easily expect a cleric/fighter to have more party healing through dmg dealing, but that dmg won't be on par with a primary dps.

Not did I say it should be on part, I said the dmg should be present tho and I even gave a suggestion of 80% of a fighter/figher.

TrUSivraj wrote: »

You're clearly obsessed with this hybrid class thing,

I'm not, a discussion or two in the last years occoured on the matter because it is a major aspect of the class and trinity system employed by Intrepid.

TrUSivraj wrote: »

as you be been shown countless times how that system will NOT exist..

Everything I've been ''shown'' was rather based on assumptions I disagree with as opposed to arguments.

Which is not necesarelly something I disagree with as the game isn't out and speculating is all we can do and it's something I do too, but let's not go into things like ''you lost the debate because you were proven wrong'' because the evidence, the proof, doesn't even exist yet.

Ironhope

bloodprophet wrote: »

Need to expand your horizons and abandon WOW for a good long while

As I said I used WoW because it's the most known mmo-rpg and because it's more simplistic and if you didn't read me saying that, that's not my fault and I don't really appreciate the suggestion that I used it as an example because of ignorance of other games.

bloodprophet wrote: »

They did some thing right in the beginning and fell hard after Wrath and the game has only gotten worse over time.

I'd say they started doing things wrong since late vanilla but this is off-topic, I just wanted to give WoW's simplistic but pretty loved class-spec system as an example of class gameplay.

SirChancelot

I think this conversation as a whole is why I keep getting a "let's wait and see" as an answer.

Noaani

Ironhope wrote: »

Everything I've been ''shown'' was rather based on assumptions I disagree with as opposed to arguments.

I am curious, what part of

When you pick your primary class, that IS your role.

is an assumption?

Atama

Here are quotes, not assumptions. From Steven Sharif:

Even though augments do radically change the way your active skills provide you abilities, there's still a primary focus on the base archetype itself and not the 64 whole classes.

And from Jeffrey Bard:

We're not really talking about 64 true classes, we're talking about eight classes with 64 variants... There isn't as much variance between the 64 classes as you might expect. It's not like there are you know 64 different versions of... radically different classes.

Another quote from Steven:

We're fairly similar to the holy trinity of class identity. I think that the way our primary archetypes and secondary archetypes, the combination of that creating these 64 different classes, it is a goal to kind of blur the line between those identities, that standard Trinity that's present. I think additionally the way that we're developing classes is to be that rock-paper-scissors type of interaction, especially balance them around group vs. group kind of dynamics or group dynamics; and... by utilizing the augment system allows for players to kind of take skills outside of just the realm of their identity and into a different area.

They're careful to temper expectations. Augments are not going to be dramatic changes to a class. It's not turning your Warrior into a Paladin (in WoW terms). It's a subtle thing. Not meaningless, but not a huge change.

Another Steven quote:

Certain archetypes are capable of moving the gap between their counterpart per-se. If I am a Tank archetype and a Mage is my counter, I can take a Mage secondary and kind of bridge the divide slightly; and then move my identity that direction ever so slightly.

And here is possibly the biggest quote about augments, given by Steven in Discord:

Our player class advancement follows both a vertical progression in the traditional leveling sense, as well as a horizontal skill customization platform. When players start the game, they will be able to choose from 8 separate Archetypes. These archetypes represent the staple fantasy classes; Fighter, Tank, Rogue, Ranger, Mage, Summoner, Cleric, Bard. As the player progresses vertically with their primary class, they will have the opportunity to add a second class. This second class will be chosen again from the 8 archetypes, and will follow more of a horizontal progression. The second class will allow the player to augment their primary skills from their main class, with effects from their secondary class. For example; A fighter has a skill called “Rush”, that allows him to rush towards a target and upon reaching the target, deals x damage with a chance to knock the target down. If that fighter were to choose Mage as his secondary archetype (Spellsword), he would gain access to certain augments that he could apply to his primary skill tree. Let’s use his Rush skill as an example; As a Spellsword, he could choose to apply a teleportation augment to the Rush skill, which would allow the skill to now teleport you to the target, eliminating the charge time on the skill. Each skill in the primary tree will have several augment options from your secondary tree. The secondary skill augment tree will follow a horizontal progression that will be expanded upon further in a developer’s blog.

I think it's fair to expect augments to be fun, cool, and useful. I don't think it's fair to expect augments to completely change what your character is capable of doing. They won't let a Tank fill a healing role in a group, and won't let a Rogue step up and take over tanking duties.

CROW3

I’ve interpreted the secondary archetype as the old ADnD 2nd edition concept of kits. Kits modified some skills and proficiencies, but didn’t change the base class. For example, a Thief could take an Assassin kit increasing Move Silently / Hide in Shadows rolls, as well as giving a new poisons skill. Or a thief could take the Highwayman kit, giving them broader proficiency with weapons.

Seems very close to how Steven and Jeff originally architected the class construction. It will be interesting once we move deeper into class development and Alpha 2 how close this concept holds since Jeff’s departure last year.

Kiluvian

I'm not going to lie, I am not a fan whatsoever of the class system in this game. I get the impression that there is only going to be a small suite of abilities available to each class, while they'll each only be marginally different based on the subclass. I'm especially not impressed with any of the abilities I've seen thus far from any of the classes, particularly the mages. The fighter abilities also seem rather standard and in line with pretty much every other game out there.

Not that it matters, but I'd have preferred a class system that is more traditional, with a much larger suite of abilities available to each class. Then, an additional large pool of archetype or general abilities, even some more rare class abilities, that need to be obtained through various methods in the game. You might even need to choose between which rare class abilities to obtain, not being able to obtain all of them. Then, I'd have done something like added a huge pool of hidden classes in the game that can be obtained. Once you locate a hidden class, if it's available to your class and suits your style, you can go through the legacy quest to obtain that hidden class' legacy, which includes another specialized suite of skills. You could swap hidden classes by going through a different hidden class' legacy quest, abandoning your previous hidden class and the suite of skills that come with it. Some hidden classes could even be more powerful than others, but also have much more difficult legacy quests that need to be completed. It should be so that your ability suite matches the skill level of your gameplay. It's both fair and allows for room to improve.

Something that went as far as having some overpowered as hell hidden classes might even be good, where world events were centered around those players. Creating some star players that are really driving world events. If anyone has ever read Overgeared, a character named Kraugel became the Sword Saint. It was supposed to be the strongest combat class in the game, but he had lost too many fights and began to lose his qualifications to the Sword Saint class. If you were going to go as far as to have that kind of overpowered aspects, it should definitely have very high maintenance requirements.

Unfortunately, that would be a lot of work to develop so many abilities, hundreds of them, but it sure as hell would bring class diversity and character identity to a game.

Noaani

Kiluvian wrote: »

I'm not going to lie, I am not a fan whatsoever of the class system in this game. I get the impression that there is only going to be a small suite of abilities available to each class, while they'll each only be marginally different based on the subclass.

Each class is going to have at least 30 abilities.

If we take that and assume 3 ranks per ability (which add additional effects to abilities), 4 augments per ability per class, 1 per race, an average of 1 per ability for religion, and an average of 1 per ability for social organizations, that adds up to a total of 40,320 ability combinations in Ashes.

If that doesn't at least somewhat impress you, then I am not sure what would.

I'm especially not impressed with any of the abilities I've seen thus far from any of the classes, particularly the mages

This maybe because you have not yet seen any abilities that are expected to be in the final game, as they have not yet been developed.

Kiluvian

Most of my previous post was just the ranting of my own personal class system wish list and can mostly be disregarded. A lot of people will have completely differing opinions.

Noaani wrote: »

Each class is going to have at least 30 abilities.

If we take that and assume 3 ranks per ability (which add additional effects to abilities), 4 augments per ability per class, 1 per race, an average of 1 per ability for religion, and an average of 1 per ability for social organizations, that adds up to a total of 40,320 ability combinations in Ashes.

If that doesn't at least somewhat impress you, then I am not sure what would.

That all depends on how each of those augments affect the abilities they're tied to. Again, my worry is that the ability augments are marginal or superficial, not really changing much of the functionality. If they do, fantastic, but if they don't, then it will really kill any hope for class diversity. In any case, personally, I would rather have more ability options and less augments per ability.

In my opinion, everyone is too concerned with balance when the matter of balance can be removed entirely by making it a matter of horizontal gameplay. If you're underpowered it would then be because you haven't obtained more powerful abilities rather than your class being imbalanced. Instead of developers spending time constantly trying to balance classes between each patch, they could spend that time implementing new abilities and means of obtaining those abilities.

This maybe because you have not yet seen any abilities that are expected to be in the final game, as they have not yet been developed.

That's quite possible. I am optimistic that what I've seen already will be significantly improved upon, but like you said, they haven't developed a lot of abilities yet. I'm simply not impressed with what's been shown so far, and that probably has a lot to do with many of the existing abilities being easy to pop out of the box in the Unreal Engine.

Atama

Kiluvian wrote: »

That's quite possible. I am optimistic that what I've seen already will be significantly improved upon, but like you said, they haven't developed a lot of abilities yet. I'm simply not impressed with what's been shown so far, and that probably has a lot to do with many of the existing abilities being easy to pop out of the box in the Unreal Engine.

That's fair. It makes sense to be skeptical. We haven't really seen much of anything yet and we don't know too many specifics. We barely know anything about 5 out of the 8 archetypes, aside from generalities, and we really don't know how augments will work outside of the basic philosophy behind them.

Noaani

Kiluvian wrote: »

That all depends on how each of those augments affect the abilities they're tied to. Again, my worry is that the ability augments are marginal or superficial, not really changing much of the functionality.

This is an MMO.

There are two high level effects in MMO's.

deal/create damage
heal/prevent damage

Every single ability in an MMO comes down to these two functions. CC is simply a way to stop an enemy dealing critical damage to an ally, as is a heal, as is a debuff that lowers a targets chance to hit, as is a blink that teleports you out of the way, as is a buff that increases a tanks mitigation temporarily, as is an active dodge or block ability.

Likewise, a backstab is a way of creating damage, but so is a debuff that lowers the targets mitigation, so is a buff that increases an ally mages intelligence, so is a combat roll that puts a fighter in striking range of a target.

So, in reality, there are two effects in MMO's. There are different ways of arriving at these effects, but there are two effects.

If you wanted to, you could expand that list of two effects to about 6.

Deal damage
Heal damage
Movement
CC
Buff ally
Debuff enemy

I challenge you to come up with a single ability that is not just a combination of these 6 components, and does not have the purpose of the further above two base effects.

Using the scale of the combat system outline from my above post, I am unsure what it is you expect here. How are the developers supposed to take these six effects and make them in to 40k+ abilities, in a way where each ability that an individual class has is changed in a material way?

I mean, even if we drop the 40k+ total abilities and look at things from the perspective of one player, playing one class. You want Intrepid to make each augment non-superficial. This means that for each of the 8 classes, Intrepid need to spread these 6 effects across 5,040 augmented, ranked abilities.

Do you honestly think what you are asking here is even mathematically possible?

daveywavey

CROW3 wrote: »

Seems very close to how Steven and Jeff originally architected the class construction. It will be interesting once we move deeper into class development and Alpha 2 how close this concept holds since Jeff’s departure last year.

Still too soon, man... it's still too soon...!

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