Should your clan be able to see your trade skill levels?

Just a thought, in other games there are often shouts out for particular grade/level crafters etc. so wondering if it would be considered a valuable thing to have in the in-house guild menu that lists all guild members to have a table along side player name, level, rank level in the clan menu/screen and also show selective skill stats for others to see?

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Noaani

McMackMuck wrote: »

I don't see the need to automatically show anything from my character sheet to any other player. I'm disappointed that character level is shared - it would be better to just give a threat assessment due to level and gear disparity IMO. Players can ask me and I can communicate whichever version of the truth I choose. If I choose to tie myself up in a web of lies, then that is my choice (a bad choice IMO, but each to their own).

In terms of random players, I agree.

If my play time became dominated by gear crafting requests and peer pressure to be the "weapon monkey" (for example) then I would quickly resent the role. It has to be voluntary.

While I agree, I don't see how this relates to the topic.

If your crafting ability is listed on the guild UI, you are still able to say no. The only difference is you need the testicular fortitude to say no to guildmates directly rather than indirectly.

Hardcore guilds may require screenshots, but Ashes (applying the same argument to both combat and crafting) has decided to move away from that number driven "DPS or GTFO" mentality for choosing team mates. You can still push for competitive builds through empirical evidence. i.e. You don't need to know what my crafting stats are - ask me to do something to see how reliable, responsive and capable I am. How refreshing to talk to someone instead of just checking their profile and using them like a NPC!

None of this really means anything here. It has literally no connection at all to showing basic information about your crafting ability to members of your guild.

Crafting tasks that are arranged through the guild should be logged by the guild. This would give metrics on member activities, although Guild leaders should decide what it is shared.

I see no need for this at all.

Jhoren

I'd be cool with a toggle, as was suggested earlier.

McMackMuck

Noaani wrote: »

None of this really means anything here. It has literally no connection at all to showing basic information about your crafting ability to members of your guild.

The point I was trying to make was that some players judge based on stats as the absolute measure of a capability, whether it is DPS or a crafting skill. It can lead to team selection practices in other games that ultimately damage the health of the server. I don't think this would apply to Ashes, but the risk can be avoided completely by not sharing the numbers.

So long as it can be toggled on/off I'm happy. A simple request for help in Guild Discord will be answered by any that are able and willing, as several others have pointed out. That's good enough for me.

Noaani

McMackMuck wrote: »

So long as it can be toggled on/off I'm happy.

If this were to happen, there would need to be a means for players to tell who has it turned off.

From my perspective, that is a sure sign of who gets booted from the guild.

If you are not willing to let basic information about how you can help people in the guild be known to people within the guild, I want nothing at all to do with you. I will not help you, nor will I trust that you will ever be available to help others - as you have already proven you are unwilling to do that.

I literally see no reason any person worth keeping in a guild would ever obfuscate this information.

It would seem all the people arguing for this to be included are simply not people worth having around.

daveywavey

So, why stop at crafting skill? Health, Damage, Skills chosen, etc, would give you an indication of who you may want to take along in your raid parties? And it's all starting to get very dmg-meter-elitist already...

Noaani

daveywavey wrote: »

So, why stop at crafting skill? Health, Damage, Skills chosen, etc, would give you an indication of who you may want to take along in your raid parties? And it's all starting to get very dmg-meter-elitist already...

We show class for that.

That is all I need.

Just as I am not arguing for full stats for crafting, just basic information.

McMackMuck

@Noaani
That's okay, I don't think we'd be in each other's guilds anyway!

LOL.

Perhaps I misunderstood. If it's just an artisan skill name, then I'm happy with that.

I'm more for communicating in Discord Guild chat, I should have mentioned that clearly in my post.

My guild already know what race, class and artisan role I currently intend to be (at this point in time).
We have channels set up to post that info., voluntarily.
It's sparked some interesting preliminary discussions about collaboration and areas where we can promote each other and the interests of the guild, alliances, etc., as you might expect.

If a member needs help with _anything_ just ask in chat - if we can sort it internally or via our network of contacts then we will hook you up with the right person. That list of contacts will soon grow far bigger than a single guild in-game guild crafting page and any craft skill level data will soon be out of date when stored in an external spreadsheet. No one wants the full time job of keeping a spreadsheet current and chasing players or guilds for information, so just keep it simple - in-game name, in-game guild, discord name, services offered. When required, contact the relevant person from the list, explain the job to see if they are capable and willing to help, or if they want removing from the list. This is how I see it working.

It seems to me that thinking on a single in-game Guild level is rather blinkered/short sighted as to how discord diplomacy will link thousands of players across many guilds in non-aggression trade pacts for mutual benefit, eventually covering large chunks of a server.

We could both be wrong about how we see it working. Only time will tell, but by then we will probably have other things we care about more.

mcstackerson

McMackMuck wrote: »

If a member needs help with _anything_ just ask in chat - if we can sort it internally or via our network of contacts then we will hook you up with the right person. That list of contacts will soon grow far bigger than a single guild in-game guild crafting page and any craft skill level data will soon be out of date when stored in an external spreadsheet. No one wants the full time job of keeping a spreadsheet current and chasing players or guilds for information, so just keep it simple - in-game name, in-game guild, discord name, services offered. When required, contact the relevant person from the list, explain the job to see if they are capable and willing to help, or if they want removing from the list. This is how I see it working.

Isn't this a good reason to make this information available in game.

Instead of having to dive through a list, compare it to who is online, and reach out to see if they can make what you want, wouldn't it be better to do this through the game, which already has this info. No need to keep a spreadsheet updated, you can look through your guild list, maybe it provides features to filter on profession and level. You could also go through their crafting menu and view everything they can craft.

If people really want to hide this info then they can but relying on third parties to keep track of this seems a little silly when crafting is supposed to be a big part of the game.

I also see this as a way for crafters to show off their achievements if they wish.

Atama

daveywavey wrote: »

So, why stop at crafting skill? Health, Damage, Skills chosen, etc, would give you an indication of who you may want to take along in your raid parties? And it's all starting to get very dmg-meter-elitist already...

Just put gear score in there and call it good.

JustVine

Given Davey and AoCHype's points above I think I would be open to a toggle default off. I think that the Spy and social read on new guilds problem doesn't get addressed if on but AoCHype in particular made a good point about different approaches for different guild types.

So if they really strongly feel a need to do the work to make this feature, putting in a little more to make it toggle would be an acceptable compromise for me.

mcstackerson

daveywavey wrote: »

So, why stop at crafting skill? Health, Damage, Skills chosen, etc, would give you an indication of who you may want to take along in your raid parties? And it's all starting to get very dmg-meter-elitist already...

The difference i think is that this information is necessary. If i need a particular item crafted, then i'll have to find out if you are able to craft it one way or another.

Are people not supposed to be able to ask for a specific item? If i have the materials for an item, is it elitist for me to not give them to a crafter that can't make the item i want? Should i just give the materials to a crafter and be happy with whatever i get back?

Instead of having to ask in chat or bug you because you are on a list and might be able to make, wouldn't be easier for people to just look at what a crafter can make, ideally see the materials required as well, and ask for that item?

Noaani

McMackMuck wrote: »

Noaani
That's okay, I don't think we'd be in each other's guilds anyway! LOL.

Perhaps I misunderstood. If it's just an artisan skill name, then I'm happy with that.

I'm more for communicating in Discord Guild chat, I should have mentioned that clearly in my post.

My guild already know what race, class and artisan role I currently intend to be (at this point in time).
We have channels set up to post that info., voluntarily.
It's sparked some interesting preliminary discussions about collaboration and areas where we can promote each other and the interests of the guild, alliances, etc., as you might expect.

If a member needs help with _anything_ just ask in chat - if we can sort it internally or via our network of contacts then we will hook you up with the right person. That list of contacts will soon grow far bigger than a single guild in-game guild crafting page and any craft skill level data will soon be out of date when stored in an external spreadsheet. No one wants the full time job of keeping a spreadsheet current and chasing players or guilds for information, so just keep it simple - in-game name, in-game guild, discord name, services offered. When required, contact the relevant person from the list, explain the job to see if they are capable and willing to help, or if they want removing from the list. This is how I see it working.

It seems to me that thinking on a single in-game Guild level is rather blinkered/short sighted as to how discord diplomacy will link thousands of players across many guilds in non-aggression trade pacts for mutual benefit, eventually covering large chunks of a server.

We could both be wrong about how we see it working. Only time will tell, but by then we will probably have other things we care about more.

While I don't disagree with you here, there is a really important thing to note that I think you are missing.

Don't rely on Discord.

Discord as a company has been losing money for years. They are trying to sell it off, and have been for a while. their talks to sell to Microsoft have ended, but that doesn't mean they won't sell to someone, or put themselves up for an IPO.

It is worth noting that the developers that work on Discord get paid very little for their work, but get a percentage of the proceeds from a sale or IPO. As such, this happening is straight up inevitable.

Basically, you can not rely on Discord continuing to function in the way it functions today. Making plans that rely on it is short sighted, imo. If they sell to a larger company, Discord could well go the way of Skype. If they go for an IPO, they could well go the way of EA, charging people to use it.

If I were making a game right now, I would make it with every tool I could built in to the game, not relying on third party tools like Discord that could be bought or sold at a moments notice.

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

Given Davey and AoCHype's points above I think I would be open to a toggle default off. I think that the Spy and social read on new guilds problem doesn't get addressed if on but AoCHype in particular made a good point about different approaches for different guild types.

So if they really strongly feel a need to do the work to make this feature, putting in a little more to make it toggle would be an acceptable compromise for me.

I still fail to see what this has to do with spying.

Sioneva

Noaani wrote: »

I still fail to see what this has to do with spying.

One of your claims to prevent people being bugged while on raids is providing location…. You don’t see how that provides use for spying?

Crafting levels will provide insights into what type of gear a guild will be outfitted with. Etc.

Also, can you elaborate on why you don’t want to allow guilds (upon creation) of the option:
1.). Requiring skill visibility.
2.). Leaving it up to the player

Among options to make it a tiered visibility system. With this in place what do you care if other guilds have “FU guild players” in their midst? Shouldn’t impact you at all

mcstackerson

So i agree the location thing shouldn't be a thing but I don't know if i see being able to view someone's skill choices and someones crafting skills/recipes as the same thing.

When it comes to your class, they don't necessarily need a specific skill load out to play that role. If you are looking for a healer and someone says they can heal, you don't need to dig into the details.

When it comes to crafting, you are usually looking for a specific item/skill. Knowing their artisan class doesn't mean a lot. If you can't check their recipes that means you need to bug everyone who could possibly know it to find the person who can make what you are looking for. To me, this is unnecessary friction between people who want to get an item crafted and crafters.

As for the combat argument, if they do craft gear, you might be able to guess a little but unless the person only picks up recipes for themself, it's pretty safe to say that it doesn't mean that much. I don't think it's good to compare having a rough idea of the stats the might have to knowing someones spells as that, in most cases, would tell you exactly how they fight.

Optics2134

CROW3 wrote: »

I’m fine with a flag that says ‘Allow guildies to see you crafting recipes/skill’ and default it to ‘Yes.’

If you want to hide it, then hide it. IMO it doesn’t have to be more complicated.

agreed

Noaani

AOCHype wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I still fail to see what this has to do with spying.

One of your claims to prevent people being bugged while on raids is providing location….

This is somewhat independent of what we are talking here, and is another standard feature of a guild UI.

Again, it is a feature that literally every MMO I have ever played has had. I am REALLY curious to know which MMO's it is that you have played.

Even if we assume this isn't standard, it isn't exactly a useful tool for spying. In order for it to be useful for spying, there needs to be some information that can't be obtained more easily via other methods. I mean, a spy isn't going to spend days trying to get a piece of information that someone would just give them freely if asked.

So, to that end, when was the last time your guild ran a raid where someone in your guild didn't know there was a raid happening? Chances are, if the spy is any good, they are on that raid anyway.

So no, I straight up do not see how adding basic crafting information to the guild UI could in any way be used for spying.

Shouldn’t impact you at all

You're new here, so probably don't know this. I do not argue things from the perspective of what *I* want, I argue them from the perspective of what I think would be best for the game as a whole.

As such, making a point like the above is absurd. I don't care if it affects me or not, as that is not the reasoning behind my opinion. My reasoning is that a games systems dictate player behavior, so you want to detail those systems in a way that would dictate the player behavior that is best for the game.

Having strong guild connections is good for any MMO. In my experience, people are more likely to leave a PvP MMO due to their guild failing than they are due to the game failing.

As such, you want a guild system and guild UI that encourages people to work as a guild.

Having basic information about guild members (class, profession, levels of each, general location, time since last online) creates better communities than if all of that information was obfuscated.

I've still yet to see a reason as to why this should be hidden, or even why there should be an option to hide it. The spying angle is a total non-starter so far. I am still waiting to for @JustVine to elaborate on that, though I am not expecting much there at all.

The idea of "but I might have someone ask me to make something for them while I am on a raid" is just stupid. You might have that anyway, having information about your crafting class on the guild UI would make this neither more nor less likely to happen. The person that bought this up should be ashamed of them self, honestly. They are clearly just stretching for reason.

As far as I am concerned, the real reason some people are against this is due to the lack of privacy they feel in real life, and then wanting to prevent this in an MMO. That is why the only reasons given are irrational - the reasons were concocted after the decision to oppose the idea was made (this part is blatantly obvious).

Sioneva

I still haven’t heard a reason there shouldn’t be options for both. You keep cherry picking words and attacking them, without actually deconstructing my point. So…. Not really sure where that leaves us.

And the real kicker is you retract your previous points when it doesn’t suit you. Pretty comical actually, especially when you try and take the high road of “I want what’s best for the game”. Is there anyone who doesn’t? What a silly tangent to go on.

Anywho, I’m just glad the vast majority here seem to be of the camp have it toggle-able and leave it at that. Personally I think it’s reasonable to leave it up to the guild, but plain toggle-able is cool too.

Noaani

AOCHype wrote: »

And the real kicker is you retract your previous points when it doesn’t suit you.

Which points have I retracted?

You have not yet presented any points that need deconstructing.

I have only seen two points against this. The first is some inexplicable notion of it aiding spy - but with no real description of how this would actually allow a spy to gain information they otherwise would not.

The second is that you may get asked to make something while raiding, but there is no suggestion made that this may happen more with this information than without it.

I'd be happy to deconstruct any other points you with to make on this - but you have to make those points first.

Sioneva

Noaani wrote: »

AOCHype wrote: »

And the real kicker is you retract your previous points when it doesn’t suit you.

Which points have I retracted?

You have not yet presented any points that need deconstructing.

I have only seen two points against this. The first is some inexplicable notion of it aiding spy - but with no real description of how this would actually allow a spy to gain information they otherwise would not.

The second is that you may get asked to make something while raiding, but there is no suggestion made that this may happen more with this information than without it.

I'd be happy to deconstruct any other points you with to make on this - but you have to make those points first.

I’ll put it plainly. What is the reasoning for not making this an option upon guild creation.
1.) Guild requires visible skills
2.) Guild does not require visible skills

Information a spy would have than not:
1.) Crafting ability of rival guild. What gear can they make, how equipped are they going to be when we make our move?
2.) Location at any given time (this is the point you retracted when it didn’t suit)

Tasked with something while raiding:
1.) It stands to reason seeing stats will cultivate a culture where you directly reach out to players and not to a dedicated guild channel. For someone who’s such a proponent for guild cooperation that seems like a strange one to fight for.
2.) If point 2. of spying is incorrect, you won’t be able to see if people are busy or not. Bit of a paradox there

To be clear, the main thing I want you to address is the first paragraph on this comment. Why shouldn’t it be up to the guilds? I’ve been trying to ask that question for at least a couple pages

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