Off Tanking

Boanergese wrote: »

I think you reading into things too much. A modifier is not the same as an ability. They are not going to give the mage/tank the ultimate defense ability or shield wall. They might give the mage/tank some kind of taunt ability, a stun, or maybe some kind of mana shield for mitigation, but the problem is going to be that a cloth wearer who has half the hit points of a tank and less defense will get one shot with certain raid bosses. If the mage/tank was as good as the tank, then everyone would play that for the ability to dps and tank. It would break the tank class which the developer doesn't want.

Anyone who follows what I've been saying for the past several days should understand that my stance is that augments will not be as powerful as Rank 3+ Active Skills.

We know that x/Clerics will have access to healing augments. Don't expect those to be as powerful as Cleric/x Active Skills.
We know that x/Mages will have access to Elemental augments. Don't expect those to be as powerful as Mage/x Active Skills.
We can look at the patterns of what we already have been told and expect a similar pattern for x/Tanks.

Will x/Tanks be able to generate Threat and hold Aggro and Mitigate damage? Yes.
Will they be able to do so as well as a Tank/x? Most likely no.
One of the key aspects of an Ashes Tank is that they control the battle field with Active Skills like Shield Wall, so we can expect that an x/Tank might have an augment that is some lesser form of Shield Wall.

I was at the office, trying to quickly provide an example of the concept.
Sure, if I had more time, I could have been more precise by including more qualifiers, like "some form of" or by placing the Shield Wall augment in quotations, but a push back of just "Why?" doesn't help me see what part of my example people are balking at.

I dunno why anyone would think that I was suddenly saying that augments will be as powerful Active Skills.

Any Class can wear any gear.
Most likely, a Mage/Tank will be wearing a mix of Physical gear and Magical gear. They might be wearing some cloth, but you can expect that they will additionally be wearing leather and plate.
Also, you can expect them to have their Passive Skills point spread help them with damage mitigation.
In Alpha One, Mages had access to the Passive Skills: Defense Mitigation, Health Regeneration and Maximum Health. Seems likely that a Mage/Tank would have those maxed.

Mage/Tank is not going to be as good of a tank as a Tank/Mage.
Again, if you've been following my position, I don't understand how you could think that I suggested a Mage/Tank will be as good at tanking as a Tank/Mage.

Boanergese wrote: »

As Steven mentioned in a video the tank ability Onslaught which is a charge ability, if it was augmented with a mage augment like blink instead of the tank taking 3 seconds to close the gap of his target the tank would close the gap instantly and might also stun the enemy with a lightning shock. That is more how the augments are going to work. I think people are hyping up the X/Tank too much. I think people who tank with be Tank/X for the most part and it will be fun to see how the tank can be augmented for different roles whether it be absorption, dodging, self-heals, etc.

Right. That is an example of a Tank/Mage.
Tank/Mage takes an augment that is related to the Active Skill, Thundershock and adds Lightning damage onto a Tank Active Skill. Don't expect the lightning damage from a Mage augment to be as powerful as a Rank 3+ Thundershock.

Which means we can expect a similar pattern for Mage/Tank:
Mage/Tank may be able to toss out a Fireball with an augment related to Shield Wall that creates some form of fire barrier or electrical fence. Don't expect that barrier/fence to have the durability or duration of a Rank 3+ Shield Wall.
Again, I didn't say that we know Mage/Tank will be able to create such a barrier, I'm just formulating an example that follows the pattern we've been given with other classes.

I don't see how I've been hyping up x/Tank.
Again, I've been saying the same thing that the devs said in that most recent clip Nerror posted.
I don't know why you think x/Tanks won't have barrier augments when two out of the ten Tank Active Skills we know create barriers.

Dygz wrote: »

We know that x/Clerics will have access to healing augments. Don't expect those to be as powerful as Cleric/x Active Skills.

While cleric secondary may have a healing augment class, that doesn't mean abilities augmented with it will gain the ability to heal other players.

It may well be that a mage/cleric may get additional damage vs undead in their "healing" augments, as an example.

It is also fairly well established that a Paladins healing is likely to be self only, or at the very least, self focused.

Based on this, if the tank secondary has a "taunt" augment school, it is perfectly viable that a mage/tank may have augments to abilities that REDUCE the hate they generate, rather than increase it.

We currently have no reason to assume otherwise.

https://discord.com/channels/256164085366915072/256164085366915072/739365922246098987
The quote from Steven indicates that x/Clerics will be able to heal others via augments from the Life School.

Also:

https://youtu.be/KtVUiS7yAHE?t=3621
1:00:21

"Through the Secondary Class augment features, it will be possible for some Base Archetypes to augment their Active Skills to grant either themselves the potential to heal or will have very mitigated healing for other party members also.
And just to give context there...
Again, the purpose of Secondary Archetypes and the augment system is to blur the line a little bit with the class roles. So, while we're following a traditional Trinity role class system in class roles, we are utilizing the Secondary augment system to move the dial a little bit in one direction with the augments."
---Steven

Also, remember, I asked Steven specifically on the Ashen Forge:
Dygz: "Is it just the Paladin who can only self-heal or will there be other Cleric Secondary Archetypes who can heal the group?"

Steven: "So, when you choose Cleric as a Secondary class, two of the augment schools are Life and Death. And choosing Life augments on certain [Active] skills will have the ability to both potentially impact others to a degree and give them life giving benefits to a degree, through your [Active] Skills, and also provide healing benefits for yourself through your [Active] Skills as well.
So, pretty much any class that is going to choose Cleric as a Secondary Class will have the ability to pick from those augments to influence their skills to affect the life of others around you and yourself."

A Tank augment that reduces Threat is also a possibility, sure.

Noaani wrote: »

If content doesn't need a proper tank, then that content is trivial with a proper tank.

Well that's an asssumption based off a kind of premise that's possibly suggesting that monsters behaviour is linear/simple.

One of Steve's favourite games is Lineage 2 for instance, that's also one of my fav's, I'd like to think we agree on how boringly simple most PvE was ie Tank gets agro and NEVER loses it, no serious mechanics involved, just stand there and press that sweet and powerful taunt.

Have you ever thought of the inverse?
Tanks and Healer's are the mainstream "think first, never question" foundation to the utility and survival of any party and every player who loves to "just get on with it!" loves the concept but I question their love and passion for combat.
If many interesting/unorthdox classes and compisitions are part of the game and there are classes/skill elements that make this a lot easier and a lot more organised then who exactly is standing out like a sore thumb and making the combat trivial?

Games try to make and balance all these different classes or playstyles (easy content, gimme money) but the Meta, usually, always shines the brightest, well ofc because they didn't care to balance them around the foundation of the game they made (including the fact that monsters and AI are usually pathetic).

Tanks (or 1h wep and shield users) can have MUCH MORE interesting mechanics and abilities to them than what you think they should do AND it shouldn't be to completely shadow any other class in Ashe's IE "HAHA, you can't do this without me, serves you right for disrespecting me!".

Until I've seen how they are going to polish combat, interesting AI, monster debuff immunities and the abilities of other "not a full DPS class", whatever, this is all too early to tell but other survival and utility elements coming from other classes is very cool conepts that I hope exist as I do not wish to fall fully victim to the "Majesty" of a full 6-pack, tower shielded invidual for 99% of my time fighting decent monsters.

NishUK wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

If content doesn't need a proper tank, then that content is trivial with a proper tank.

Well that's an asssumption based off a kind of premise that's possibly suggesting that monsters behaviour is linear/simple.

If Intrepid had plans to make a game that didn't have this (or had it to the degree that would matter), it would be the headline feature of the game.

They have said they want groups to take one of each primary archetype - or at least attempt to take one. They have said they are designing the game around the core concept of the trinity system.

If you want to hope they they go against what they have already said, fine. Just be aware that you are hoping they go against what they have already said.

When talking about the game, what we expect from the game, we are not making assumptions if we talking about the game within the parameters that Intrepid have talked about the game.

As such, the "assumptions" you claim I have made are in fact me just assuming that Intrepid are developing the game they are talking about.

Dygz wrote: »

Also, remember, I asked Steven specifically on the Ashen Forge:

I specifically discount anything said here in terms of specific things we could see in the game. Nothing to do with the people present, it is purely the fact that there is no structure. Questions go from conceptual to specific, from genre specific to game specific, but with no time to transition between.

This leaves the person answering questions as often looking at the question from the wrong perspective. While the question may be asked in a specific sense, the answer may be from a conceptual perspective.

This is the downside to amateur interviewers. They often end up with inaccurate information due to not getting the interviewee in the correct headspace for questions.

Dygz wrote: »

"Through the Secondary Class augment features, it will be possible for some Base Archetypes to augment their Active Skills to grant either themselves the potential to heal or will have very mitigated healing for other party members also.
And just to give context there...
Again, the purpose of Secondary Archetypes and the augment system is to blur the line a little bit with the class roles. So, while we're following a traditional Trinity role class system in class roles, we are utilizing the Secondary augment system to move the dial a little bit in one direction with the augments."

A few points here.

Some base archetypes. Not all. This automatically means the notion of */cleric can heal as being incorrect. Some classes within that subset of */cleric will be able to. Some means not all.

Next, either potential to heal themselves or will have very mitigated healing for other party members. This could be taken as the player has the choice to either self heal, or to heal others. However, it could also be taken as Intrepid have not yet decided between the two - most likely, some classes will be able to self heal, some will be able to heal others.

So, it we assume each of these "some" above means half, that means four classes would be able to heal, of which two can self heal (Paladin and Soul Weaver, imo), and two will be able to heal others (High Priest and Necromancer, imo). This happens to fit in perfectly well with the notion that a summoner is the only class that is able to take on other roles.

The above fits in perfectly with everything Intrepid have said. Augments for this for the other four classes could be HP regen, HP buffs, protection from undead, damage to undead, all sorts of things that fit in to this school.

There is more to a life school of magic than just healing, and so every */cleric class having access to augments from this school does not mean they can all heal others.

Doesn't really matter what you discount.
The answer falls in line with what he said previously on Discord and what he said later in a Q&A without an interviewer.

You just want to dismiss answers that you don't like.
Which is fine. It's a free world.

There is more to a Life School than just healing.
And x/Clerics will be doing more than just healing.
Just as x/Tanks will be doing more than just Threat generation and more than just damage Mitigation.
x/Tanks will have 4 Tank augment schools to choose from. If they're using Tank augments, they are tanking to some degree.

Did I say that all x/Clerics can heal others?
I think "all" is a qualifier you added.

Dygz wrote: »

If they're using Tank augments, they are tanking to some degree.

That isn't how it works.

Any given mob only has a single player tanking it at any given point in time. This player is the player that has the attention of the mob, but only on the assumption they intend to hold that mobs attention.

If I am tanking a mob and you are using tank augments to taunt it, you are not tanking it, or off tanking it. Just using those augments does not make you a tank.

If I get a bow that has a proc that heals 10 damage to the group when I deal damage, using that does not make me a healer. I may be healing, but being a healer means taking on the responsibility of keeping the group alive - a responsibility that I am clearly not capable of with that bow.

Dygz wrote: »

Did I say that all x/Clerics can heal others?

No, but you refuse to exclude the word all, until it is pointed out to you in very basic terms that you need to exclude it.

You now seem willing to admit that you need to specifically agree that not all */healer classes can heal others.

This is what we call "progress".

I have zero expectation that a mage, rogue, ranger or fighter with the cleric secondary will be able to heal other players. Intrepid have said nothing at all to contradict this expectation. Further, I expect tank and bard to be able to self heal, while cleric and summoner will be able to heal others (though I would not be surprised to see bard and summoner swap here).

All of this fits in perfectly with what Intrepid have said. This means the notion of saying */cleric can heal is misleading at best.

Using the notion of */cleric being able to heal as a means to say that*/tank will be able to tank is also misleading.

@Noaani And the Trinity System in question, like a triangle can lean heavily on one of its 3 points, lean gently or remain a standard triangle.

Oherwise, like in Archeage to a degree, it is pointless in having 120+ or so potential classes.

NishUK wrote: »

@Noaani And the Trinity System in question, like a triangle can lean heavily on one of its 3 points, lean gently or remain a standard triangle.

Oherwise, like in Archeage to a degree, it is pointless in having 120+ or so potential classes.

Well, yes, it is pointless.

That is why Ashes has 8.

Noaani wrote: »

That is why Ashes has 8.

Looking at the class table...

64 classes, your choice as a secondary has determining factor on your playstyle and abilities (otherwise why would they exist if it wasn't the case??).

There are up 15 possible classes that have a various degree's of Tanking, whatever "defines" tanking in Ashe's is still up in the air, combat has yet to be finalised.

1 of those is extremely commited to tanking. (Guardian)

7 of those are strong at tanking. (rest of the Tank row).

7 more aren't a 1st priority Tank but they will (or should) contain something that is related to a tanking in some degree. They may just contain the Tank's defensive elements without much or any utility, we don't know.

/ We're just praying for something interesting, no need to cement and define the core principals of tanking, ofc we're going to benefit from a full commited tank class choice in the hardest PvE setting....we may also complete something like that with something less commited to full tanking, depending on our experience and knowledge, it could even be faster or more rewarding depending on whatever interesting obstacles. It's up in the air.

NishUK wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

That is why Ashes has 8.

Looking at the class table...

64 classes, your choice as a secondary has determining factor on your playstyle and abilities (otherwise why would they exist if it wasn't the case??).

From Intrepid

We're not really talking about 64 true classes, we're talking about eight classes with 64 variants... There isn't as much variance between the 64 classes as you might expect. It's not like there are you know 64 different versions of... radically different classes.

So yeah...

I'm happy in that regard as it shows Intrepid care for balance in a game where PvP could decide more factors than usual in a PvP-able game (dropping some or all bag resources on death + more penalty for corruption state).

We still don't have the information but as I'm still confident, as I said, in that it will have a determining factor on your playstyle and with a few abilitiy adds or reworks to your core abilities, otherwise what is the point in having the variants.

It only takes 1 or 2 skills or tweaks to your core abilities to be able to perform an added "role/duty". For instance, a Summoner core with Tank variant could have the additional feature of generating some low form or agro or absorbing damage for party members, directed to his summon, with only a few other minor skill tweaks, passive changes, whatever that are somewhat related to what bolsters a Tank.

As we've seen in other games, adding PvE bonuses to abilities is generally harm free but obviously it can't be too good or we'll see core Summoner's with the Tank varient, as in my example, steal the need and worth of the core Tank class.

NishUK wrote: »

]
We still don't have the information but as I'm still confident, as I said, in that it will have a determining factor on your playstyle and with a few abilitiy adds or reworks to your core abilities, otherwise what is the point in having the variants.

Lets look at the tank class.

Take tank secondary to be the best tank.
Take rogue to be an avoidance tank.
Take bard to be a tank that relies a little more on control of mobs than of confronting mobs.
Take fighter to excel at two handed weapon use while tanking.
Take cleric for the roleplay aspects of being a Paladin.
Take summoner to be a good AoE tank.
Take mage to be better at tanking casters.
Take ranger to be better at soloing.

Every single variant there has a reason to exist. None of them remove the tanking role, nor add any other role to the character.

daveywavey

Noaani wrote: »

Lets look at the tank class.

Take tank secondary to be the best tank.
Take rogue to be an avoidance tank.
Take bard to be a tank that relies a little more on control of mobs than of confronting mobs.
Take fighter to excel at two handed weapon use while tanking.
Take cleric for the roleplay aspects of being a Paladin.
Take summoner to be a good AoE tank.
Take mage to be better at tanking casters.
Take ranger to be better at soloing.

Every single variant there has a reason to exist. None of them remove the tanking role, nor add any other role to the character.

Take cleric for some additional self-heal to boost your survivability?

Noaani wrote: »

Every single variant there has a reason to exist. None of them remove the tanking role, nor add any other role to the character.

Woah there! Intrepid provided us with:
"There isn't as much variance between the 64 classes as you might expect. It's not like there are you know 64 different versions of... radically different classes."

They are simply stating that you shouldn't expect as much difference as you would in other games, such as some of Lineage 2's lvl 40+ classes IE a Human Cleric class changes to either a master of buffs 'Prophet' or a master of healing 'Bishop' and they are extremely different. For example, a Prophet isn't even regarded as a healer nor are they one and a Bishop has almost zero abilities that can strengthen an ally or party.

Noaani wrote: »

Take cleric for the roleplay aspects of being a Paladin.

Ashe's of Creation is an attempt at a near perfect, open world, medieval, religious, LotR-esk+beast race fantasy experience. What kind of selling point is what you're describing to a WoW or Lineage player exactly?
A Paladin is one of the most beloved things in fantasy, god's servant and a beacon of justice towards allies via healing or against evil with smite. Religion is also a intergral part to Ashe's, there is no way it it's just going to be "roleplay purposes".

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Augments

"Augments can affect a multitude of things. It can drastically change the ability itself. It can change the damage type. It can change the cooldown period. It can change the damage values. It can change the distance. It can dramatically change it from a ranged effect to a melee effect. Augments are essentially can create- they are creating entirely new skills, but they're going to keep obviously some identity with what that primary active ability was."

All we've been shown so far is lvl 1-10 abilities with no augements, that provide a really good baseline actually to what makes a tank (pull targets, apply threat, ultimate defense vs tough PvE/PvP situations and boss phases). Judging by that quick leap to proper utility, just at lvl 10 (max lvl 50) and with your secondary Archtype starting at lvl 25 still to go, we have much yet to see with core skills and their drastic changes from augmenting and what changes will be brought to passives.

Will a NightBlade Tank, the supposed "Evasion Tank" have the option to leave Heavy Armor and be able to utilize medium armor to its fullest degree with a further benefit for not just added evasion but attack and mobility values? Steve knows Lineage 2 and it's interesting passives that mix up the game and provide unique advantages! Nightblade's augments to skills might make him INCREDIBLY exciting for those who prefer an aggressive and ruthless playstyle + providing certain players their preferred look and feel being, being a tank in medium imo is cool and not everyone wants to be a hulking piece of metal.
A powerful Fighter with a 2 handed sword could slam a lot of damage into most Tank types but a Nightblade in medium armor could significantly lower the accuracy of his foe for a period of time, evading all or most hits, making him superior in that scenerio.

Classes won't diverge massively but there's more than a hint that skills will (limited choice ofc!) and people want to offer their unique services, they very much enjoy it! They don't just want mainly flavourings and theme only or Ashe's will be laughed at and I won't defend it, I'll go on the attack myself.

"The design behind augments is to not just change the flavor so that it reflects the secondary archetype, but it also fundamentally changes the core components of a skill."

Noaani wrote: »

Every single variant there has a reason to exist

If you can quickly sum them up like you have, they literally have no reason to exist.

I guess it depends on what "adding a role" means.
Steven will say that Secondary Archetype augments allow you to dial closer towards another role... a little bit.

If I am a Cleric/Mage who can use Mage augments to teleport and electrocute enemies - I consider that adding a role. Cleric/Mage just can't effectively make Mage the Primary Archetype and Mage augments are not going to replace the need for Mage Rank 3+ Active Skills in an encounter designed for an 8-person group.
I'd also say that each Secondary Archetype has multiple factors that make them appealing; some factors are utilitarian and some are RP.

Any class can use any gear. Evasion Tanks can wear whatever gear they feel works best for them.
Secondary Archetype augments aren't the only way to create an Evasion Tank, but they might be one reason someone chooses to go Tank/Rogue, sure.

Providing a list that includes one reason for each variant is not really summing the variant up. It's just providing one reason. Providing one reason does not mean that's the only reason. It can't mean "there is literally no reason".

The meanings of "a little bit", "flavor", "fundamental" and "radically change" can be subjective, especially in different contexts, but the examples we have of Mage augments dealing Elemental damage with some hints of how Fire damage can have different tangible effects than Ice damage, indicate that augments provide more that just color changes and thematic visual cues. Same with the self-heal augment of the Paladin.

daveywavey wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Lets look at the tank class.

Take tank secondary to be the best tank.
Take rogue to be an avoidance tank.
Take bard to be a tank that relies a little more on control of mobs than of confronting mobs.
Take fighter to excel at two handed weapon use while tanking.
Take cleric for the roleplay aspects of being a Paladin.
Take summoner to be a good AoE tank.
Take mage to be better at tanking casters.
Take ranger to be better at soloing.

Every single variant there has a reason to exist. None of them remove the tanking role, nor add any other role to the character.

Take cleric for some additional self-heal to boost your survivability?

Perhaps.

A tank/tank would likely have the highest survivability if a healer is present, but a tank/cleric may have more survivability if one is not.